"American Dragon" Bryan Danielson to WWE

[foolinc]

Yes. And remember what his gimmick was at the time. They were playing London as what we in TEW would probably call the "fun psycho". If they'd been smart in that situation, they would written it off as part of London's shtick. Even as a fan who talks this stuff on the Net, I wouldn't have thought anything of it had they kept their cool. If anything, I would have been looking for London to get some investigative scrutiny and been found to be just a random loon. Thereby extending the story and pushing the gimmick at the same time.

 

WWE is usually really good at rolling with stuff like that situation, so I am going to assume that management didn't think it be successful. And I really can't blame them. That angle was suppose to be an insanely large portion of the show. Why push the guy that can't do a simple backstage segment?

 

Stop trying to pin this on WWE. Paul London screwed Paul London.

[The Final Countdown]

The man couldn't stop smiling when Vince was about to be blown up.

Maybe he couldn't control himself because he knew how hokey and stupid that idea was.

[eayragt]

Maybe he couldn't control himself because he knew how hokey and stupid that idea was.

 

Fine, but part of working in WWE is being an actor as well as a wrestler.

[ampulator]

To that, I say: Chris Benoit, Lance Storm, Rob Van Dam. Actors: Nope.

[foolinc]

Maybe he couldn't control himself because he knew how hokey and stupid that idea was.

 

I guess the rest of the roster are moronic since ALL OF THEM were able to play there part. None of them smiled.

 

To that, I say: Chris Benoit, Lance Storm, Rob Van Dam. Actors: Nope.

 

What are you talking about. All three of them were able to play their characters effectively. Just because none of them were The Rock or Triple H who can carry a 20 minute promo doesn't mean that they weren't entertaining and couldn't get their point over through segments and angles.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Paul London said the reason he smiled was because he had little to no idea what was going on, he wasn't told anything much about the segment, they probably just rassembled them all at a whim or something.

 

To that, I say: Chris Benoit, Lance Storm, Rob Van Dam. Actors: Nope.

 

Well of course there are exceptions. And even at that, they have acted throughout their tenure in the WWE, they're just not very good or thorough actors.

[BHK1978]

Fine, but part of working in WWE is being an actor as well as a wrestler.

 

Have you watched any of John Cena's movies?

 

The thing about the WWF (once again I refuse to call it the other name) is that yes they might push the smaller guys every once and a while. However, at the end of the day Vince will always be looking to push the bigger wrestler and it does not matter what their talent level is in the ring.

 

I know I am going to get well what about HBK, CM Punk, and Bret Hart. Do you know why HBK and Bret Hart became the face of the company after Hogan and company left. Because Vince was on trial for steroids. Does anybody not find it interesting that all of these smaller more talented wrestlers got pushed while he was on trial?

 

For every Punk, HBK, and Bret Hart there is a Terry Taylor or even a Johnny Polo (who turned out to be awsome as everybody knows) who are very talented wrestlers but Vince refuses to push them because they were to small. And I fear Bryan Danielson will fall into that group.

[alden]

Look at the champs right now. Rey and kingston are small, punk is not huge by any stretch neither is orton. Christian is an smaller guy and so is jericho. the only big champion is bigshow and he that is his gimmick. Right now i don't think size is a huge deal any more.

[darthsiddus2]

Rey and Kingston are champions only because they're catering to a certain group of people. that's the only reason why they have the belts.

[BHK1978]

Also, the only titles that have any meaning are Orton's and Punk's. The rest of the titles are nothing more then props. I mean think what the IC title was back in the 1980's and then think about it now. Think about what the US Title used to mean in WCW (not sure if it is considered the same US Title from the NWA if it is then think about how great it was in the old NWA). The IC, US, and ECW belts are basically equal to the WCW TV title after Hacksaw pulled it out of the trash bin. In other words they mean nothing. I would also say that they are on the same level as that joke TNA Legends championship.

[ampulator]

I can't say I can disagree there. People seem to forget that John Cena is only 240 pounds.

 

However, my problem with WWE is they treat their top star as a marketing tool, more than even as an entertainer (the Rock, Stone Cold Steve Austin, Hulk Hogan). That's sad.

 

John Cena is baby-kissing, kid-hugging, woman-hand-shaking, clean cut old school fan favorite face, all the while wearing John Cena Shoes, John Cena Cap, John Cena shirt, and John Cena pants. I'm surprised WWE hasn't slapped his shirt with a Subway logo yet.

 

The problem is, John Cena is a boring and bland Wholesome Babyface. And with him looking like a walking billboard for WWE merchandise, who's NOT going to boo him? Remember what happened at One Night Stand when he threw his shirt to the crowd? They threw it right back!

[alden]

the shirt thing would only happen at one night stand. It was at that point still an ecw type of show. The fans HATED him, if you remember they were all chanting throw it back throw it back.

 

But lets be honest for a second, wwe is a company out to make a profit. They will use the wrestlers as walking billboards and you know what some of them don't mind. Lets say john cena gets o 10 percent of his mech sales. lets say that they sell 300k of cena stuff a year. that is an extra 30 thousend a year. Now the best way to sell said merch is to have the wrestlers have it ok. Hell, look at dx and how they shill the stuff. I know it is a job but still they are making money off it also.

[foolinc]

Since the WWE title is more or less the only title that matters, I decided to see what the size of the top title holders were. Here they are.

 

Top 10 WWE champions by days regined

1. Bruno Sammartino - 5ft 10in - 260 lbs

2. Hulk Hogan - 6ft 4in - 300lb.

3. Bob Backlund - 6ft 1in. - 234lb.

4. Pedro Morales - 5ft 10in - 240lb.

5. John Cena - 6ft 1in. - 240lbs.

6. Bret Hart - 6ft 0in - 234lb.

7. Triple H - 6ft 4in. -255lb.

8. Steve Austin - 6ft 2in. - 252lb.

9. Randy Savage - 6ft 2in. - 237lb.

10. Shawn Michaels - 6ft 1in - 225lb.

 

WWE is a "heavyweight" biased company, but don't get that mixed up with the myth that Vince McMahon love big men aka hosses. The title usually goes to a man around the height of 6' 2."

[ampulator]

Actually, Vince DOES love big hosses... it's just that fans don't. He tries to push them, fans boo. Since Vince likes money more than big hosses, he acquiences (sic).

[foolinc]

Actually, Vince DOES love big hosses... it's just that fans don't. He tries to push them, fans boo. Since Vince likes money more than big hosses, he acquiences (sic).

 

*face palm* Vince McMahon likes to use the "Monster of the Week" formula. If he liked hosses so much he would have gave more of them titles for an extended period of time.

[crownsy]

Actually, Vince DOES love big hosses... it's just that fans don't. He tries to push them, fans boo. Since Vince likes money more than big hosses, he acquiences (sic).

 

 

So pretty much, Vince is screwed either way with you. You say he only pushes Hosses, fool shows you ample evidence to the contrary, and you respond that of course he can't push hosses, it doesn't fit the fans tastes, which is also wrong.

 

Vince pushes those who resonate with the crowd and move merch. That tends to be guys who can both wrestle a bit and entertain. Pure wrestlers tend to not move merch.

 

The problem seems to be that most people on this forum don't seem to get that the WWE's product isn't what they personally want it to be, and think that's some sort of leg to stand on to insult the booking. it isn't.

 

Wrestling's about money. Yes, in a perfect world, we would have some sort of WWE/ROH Hybrid that is similar to the "perfect" product that some people play in TEW that allows anyone who is talented at in ring and out of ring to flourish, but thats not what the real world responds to.

 

The WWE is the most successful money making wrestling product, it's undeniable. Other products (ROH, TNA) clearly also have there fan bases, and some cross the lines ( I like all three) but they don't draw the viewership. Some of it is exposer, but alot of it is that they just don't have the same mass appeal.

 

Now, whether one personally likes the product, that's another story. But to act like the WWE is out of it's mind for pushing the product it is? ludicrous in a money making buissness. Punk isn't getting pushed because he's a great wrestler (and he is damn good) he's getting pushed because he's a good entertainer and moves merch. Same with all the M/E's, even the much hated on the net Triple H. If people stopped buying trips merch cold turkey tommrow, he'd be out of the M/E, family ties or no.

 

If the product we (and im including myself, who hates raw, can only watches smack down because it's the closest thing to a "wrestling" show the WWE has left) wanted made as much or more money, they would book it. But it doesn't. That's the cold hard truth.

 

No one has to like it, I don't, but the majority of wrestling fans like it that way, thus why it is that way. Dismiss them all you want, but until the internet fans, who tend to be more about the in ring work, can outspend the fans who value entertainment over skill, The WWE won't, nor should it change.

 

Let me assure you, if tomorrow ROH started to put asses in seats and out sell the WWE based on pure in ring work, the WWE would book a more Ring work first product. until that time, they will book what makes money.

[BHK1978]

crownsy, I agree with what you are saying about Vice pushing the people that will make him money. However, on the flip side of that Vice puts a lot of untalented wrestlers into a position where they can make money for him and are thus pushed because of it.

 

I will use HHH as the perfect example to this. Of course the fans of the WWF are going to buy his stuff because of the way he is pushed. If you or I were pushed to the moon eventually we would catch on as well and we would eventually start selling merch. I mean the fans see HHH year in and year out beat the best the WWF has to offer. So of course the fans will see him as a badass who they have to cheer for.

 

Same with all the M/E's, even the much hated on the net Triple H. If people stopped buying trips merch cold turkey tommrow, he'd be out of the M/E, family ties or no.

 

No chance of that happening ever, just for the simple fact that HHH will never be put in the position where he will look like a scrub and therefore not sell merch. And plus he is married to the future owner of the company so why would they ever get rid of him?

[dvdWarrior]

I've always heard it was John Laur... John Lor... John Lar.... Johnny Ace who, as head booker, hired wrestlers based on their looks more than anything - wrestlers who eventually washed out for one reason or another.

 

I'm sure Danielson could make it in The E, but I worry about how he might be used.

 

 

[dvdWarrior]

crownsy, I agree with what you are saying about Vice pushing the people that will make him money. However, on the flip side of that Vice puts a lot of untalented wrestlers into a position where they can make money for him and are thus pushed because of it.

 

I will use HHH as the perfect example to this.

 

While I kind of agree with what you say here, I'm really not sure Triple H qualifies as 'untalented'. Overrated as hell, sure, but not untalented.

 

Just saying.

[ampulator]

I've always heard it was John Laur... John Lor... John Lar.... Johnny Ace who, as head booker, hired wrestlers based on their looks more than anything - wrestlers who eventually washed out for one reason or another.

 

I'm sure Danielson could make it in The E, but I worry about how he might be used.

 

 

 

Unfortunately, I really can't hate on Johnny Ace, as he (I think this is correct) was the one who decide to do a coin flip with Vince Russo in WCW to see who would book Lance Storm.

 

Johnny Ace won out, and Lance Storm went on to be pretty a big star in WCW during his short tenure in WCW.

[crownsy]

crownsy, I agree with what you are saying about Vice pushing the people that will make him money. However, on the flip side of that Vice puts a lot of untalented wrestlers into a position where they can make money for him and are thus pushed because of it.

 

I will use HHH as the perfect example to this. Of course the fans of the WWF are going to buy his stuff because of the way he is pushed. If you or I were pushed to the moon eventually we would catch on as well and we would eventually start selling merch. I mean the fans see HHH year in and year out beat the best the WWF has to offer. So of course the fans will see him as a badass who they have to cheer for.

 

 

 

No chance of that happening ever, just for the simple fact that HHH will never be put in the position where he will look like a scrub and therefore not sell merch. And plus he is married to the future owner of the company so why would they ever get rid of him?

 

Right, but that's the point, don't you see? The fact that there is no chance of it happening ever confirms he has a large fan base. those people who cheer and buy his shirts aren't masochists or vinny mac plants, they are a large section of WWE's product that enjoys H.

 

There's no call for H to job, he has alot of fans. why would vince make him look weak just to satisfy you or I?

 

Me and you don't like triple H (well actually, i think he's a reliable worker, just pushed above his station.) But the majority which isn't us, does. Thus, his M/E spot.

 

Vince has pushed a ton of guys to the M/E level to see them fail, and not kept "pushing" them on the fans. the simple fact is, to alot of people (and to my great chagrin, my two younger brothers are part of this) trips is damn entertaining.

 

I don't get it, and i assume you don't either, but he's over. Vince puts him in those situations because the crowd responds, not because he's MAKING the crowd respond.

 

He's not mentok the mind raker, brainwashing people just by having a TV show. he just knows what people who watch his product like.

 

I accepted long ago im in the minority of his product, not the majority. I take my enjoyment where i can get it. Right now, that's pretty much smackdown and a few select raw mid carders.

 

Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because you and I are in the vocal majority about our dislike of raw's main event that the masses share our opinion. Trips has a loud and vocal fan base who enjoys his work, we are just not among them. If tomorrow, that fan base evaporated, Trips would fall out of the main event.

[ampulator]

So pretty much, Vince is screwed either way with you. You say he only pushes Hosses, fool shows you ample evidence to the contrary, and you respond that of course he can't push hosses, it doesn't fit the fans tastes, which is also wrong.

 

Vince pushes those who resonate with the crowd and move merch. That tends to be guys who can both wrestle a bit and entertain. Pure wrestlers tend to not move merch.

 

The problem seems to be that most people on this forum don't seem to get that the WWE's product isn't what they personally want it to be, and think that's some sort of leg to stand on to insult the booking. it isn't.

 

Wrestling's about money. Yes, in a perfect world, we would have some sort of WWE/ROH Hybrid that is similar to the "perfect" product that some people play in TEW that allows anyone who is talented at in ring and out of ring to flourish, but thats not what the real world responds to.

 

The WWE is the most successful money making wrestling product, it's undeniable. Other products (ROH, TNA) clearly also have there fan bases, and some cross the lines ( I like all three) but they don't draw the viewership. Some of it is exposer, but alot of it is that they just don't have the same mass appeal.

 

Now, whether one personally likes the product, that's another story. But to act like the WWE is out of it's mind for pushing the product it is? ludicrous in a money making buissness. Punk isn't getting pushed because he's a great wrestler (and he is damn good) he's getting pushed because he's a good entertainer and moves merch. Same with all the M/E's, even the much hated on the net Triple H. If people stopped buying trips merch cold turkey tommrow, he'd be out of the M/E, family ties or no.

 

If the product we (and im including myself, who hates raw, can only watches smack down because it's the closest thing to a "wrestling" show the WWE has left) wanted made as much or more money, they would book it. But it doesn't. That's the cold hard truth.

 

No one has to like it, I don't, but the majority of wrestling fans like it that way, thus why it is that way. Dismiss them all you want, but until the internet fans, who tend to be more about the in ring work, can outspend the fans who value entertainment over skill, The WWE won't, nor should it change.

 

Let me assure you, if tomorrow ROH started to put asses in seats and out sell the WWE based on pure in ring work, the WWE would book a more Ring work first product. until that time, they will book what makes money.

 

It's not I think Foolinc's evidence is wrong, I just think it's incomplete. I'm not ignoring it, but a complete list of who's been champion is more helpful than a list who's had the longest reigns. Simply showing wrestlers who have the longest reigns only affirms what I said: Vince TRIES to push hosses, it's just fans reject them. He then picks his second favorite type: Entertainers. And his evidence doesn't really account for hosses he tries push, but never puts the title on.

 

I know Vince isn't stupid. But the only reason why Mark Henry and the Great Khali are still employed is because he likes big hosses. He's tried to push them, but when they bomb, he scales it back.

 

And if he wants to make money, that's fine with me. My problem isn't the product. I was a WWF Attitude Era fan, and still am. My problem is how they push wrestlers nowadays, and their lazy and laisidisical booking, and them not doing something to freshen Cena's and Orton's characters up.

 

Unfortunately, Cena is a not a very good entertainer right now. I'm not entertained one bit. It's not really HIS fault either. It's WWE's holding him back. Holding him back for what he needs to do to show he's got what it takes. But that's the current WWE for you.

[foolinc]

It's not I think Foolinc's evidence is wrong, I just think it's incomplete. I'm not ignoring it, but a complete list of who's been champion is more helpful than a list who's had the longest reigns. Simply showing wrestlers who have the longest reigns only affirms what I said: Vince TRIES to push hosses, it's just fans reject them. He then picks his second favorite type: Entertainers. And his evidence doesn't really account for hosses he tries push, but never puts the title on.

 

I know Vince isn't stupid. But the only reason why Mark Henry and the Great Khali are still employed is because he likes big hosses. He's tried to push them, but when they bomb, he scales it back.

 

And if he wants to make money, that's fine with me. My problem isn't the product. I was a WWF Attitude Era fan, and still am. My problem is how they push wrestlers nowadays, and their lazy and laisidisical booking, and them not doing something to freshen Cena's and Orton's characters up.

 

Unfortunately, Cena is a not a very good entertainer right now. I'm not entertained one bit. It's not really HIS fault either. It's WWE's holding him back. Holding him back for what he needs to do to show he's got what it takes. But that's the current WWE for you.

 

1. Mark Henry has turned himself into a solid big man, has good mic skills, and drew as the ECW champion (not to mention getting nice reactions currently as a face).

 

2. The Great Khali is loved by India. He's a draw there.

 

3. I agree that Vince loves entertainers: Hulk, Austin (post-neck injury), The Rock, Cena. And why wouldn't he? They DRAW casual fans.

 

4. I still don't get how people who say that they are Attitude Era fans (not just people who like that era or became a fan during the era, but people who thinks it's the Golden Age of Wrestling) can like Danielson. The two shouldn't mix. WWE at that time was almost all Crash booking and very little actual wrestling. The only reason it worked IMO was because of how entertaining guys like Austin and The Rock were.

 

5. Current WWE is also the same WWE that just let CM Punk turn heel. Just because one brand is bad doesn't mean the whole company is sucking. Stick to Smackdown and ECW.

[ampulator]

1. Must... resist... laughing....

2. I bet he is... but his in-rink skill is dirt-poor by WWE standards; he makes the Big Show look like Bret Hart. That's sad. And being a draw in India doesn't seem like a big plus right now. I'm not so sure, but I think that part of the world isn't too into professional wrestling. If WWE did more Indian Tours, how can I agree? But I haven't recalled such a tour. Plus, if there are any Indians around, do you guys get to watch WWF there? (Seriously).

3. I think we can agree, there, except Cena is an entertainer... just not a very good one right now. He could be good, but the WWE is holding him back.

4. You are right to only a certain degree. You can also say that Lance Storm wouldn't have fit in ECW. ECW was even more of that style, yet Lance Storm did very well for himself in ECW.

5. I can't say I disagree there, except WWE's booking is still lacking there. Not necessarily bad... just they aren't doing all they can.

[The Final Countdown]

1. Mark Henry has turned himself into a solid big man, has good mic skills, and drew as the ECW champion (not to mention getting nice reactions currently as a face).

Mark Henry has good mic skills? I mean, I don't watch Raw, so I'll have to take your word for it, but I've never exactly equated Mark Henry with solid mic skills. Has he improved dramatically, or do we just have very different opinions of the guy?

 

 

5. Current WWE is also the same WWE that just let CM Punk turn heel. Just because one brand is bad doesn't mean the whole company is sucking. Stick to Smackdown and ECW.

Yes, absolutely. I don't normally watch ECW, but Smackdown has been great recently. Just because Raw isn't interesting doesn't mean nothing good is going on. CM Punk is the most interesting character in wrestling right now, as far as I am concerned.