Board Effort Towards a Fictional Universe...

[Kobe1724]

And the guys with high brawling? The majority are big raw boned strikers with little technical or flying skills but a lot of power. A good portion lack entertainment skills. The MMA guy is a pure power striker as well with very little tech skills.

 

It's actually kinda fitting with EDC in the data and several combat/hardcore styled feds in the mix to have an advantage in brawling over the c-verse.

 

AHC is Realism, Hyper-Realism, Hardcore and Daredevil as Key Features. Every thing else is set to none.

 

It's profile:

 

I dunno, I'm skeptical about an 18-3 advantage in brawling over a universe (the C-Verse) that we're only 86% the size of. Particularly because so many of those guys are so old and there is only once precedent in 2300 workers across three databases of a guy over 40 having a B+ or higher in a top row brawling stat.

 

That said, it's nothing we can't address.

 

The other top row stats at BT - like you pointed out - are fine at the B+ level for the most part (just a bit on the high side) although I didn't screen for age which I need to.

 

7 workers B+ or higher aerial

17 workers B or higher aerial

5 workers B+ or higher mat

18 workers B or higher mat

27 workers B or higher chain

9 workers B+ or higher chain

16 workers B or higher submissions

9 workers B+ or higher submissions

[MJStark]

So is AHC active of future?

 

On the MMA-crossover workers: I created quite a few free agents from all over the world that are open to various areas (inc Japan) as Fight Club Japan starts with no roster (having only just opened) and I set Hiro Suzuki to hire by style which should mean he uses most of them, so they are there for a reason and should get work not sit around doing nothing

 

As far as stat edits are concerned, I know for most people it isn't an issue and only mention it for three reasons:

 

1. So if there is a reason/someone wants a certain stat kept where it is I can make sure to work around it unless it makes no sense within the game world.

 

2. Because some people don't like their characters being messed with so if I explain the rationale their are less issues.

 

3. It allows people to point out flaws in my logic in case I'm making a huge mistake in some context. ^_^

If you could let me know if you need/plan to change any guys in TLP I'd appreciate it, they all have various reasons for their stats that I'm more than happy to explain

[Kobe1724]

So is AHC active of future?

 

On the MMA-crossover workers: I created quite a few free agents from all over the world that are open to various areas (inc Japan) as Fight Club Japan starts with no roster (having only just opened) and I set Hiro Suzuki to hire by style which should mean he uses most of them, so they are there for a reason and should get work not sit around doing nothing

 

 

If you could let me know if you need/plan to change any guys in TLP I'd appreciate it, they all have various reasons for their stats that I'm more than happy to explain

 

Sure. In general as long as a guy isn't way too young to have a stat (e.g. A nineteen year old with a B+ psych is one in a million) or way too old to have a stat (i.e. no one past their early 40's has any business with an A to A* stamina and athleticism) it's easy to just pick someone else to chop numbers wise.

 

Aside from the brawling stats a cursory look at our top row elsewhere seemed only about 15-20% too high at the B and above level. With the tech/aerial where we're high if we drop the older guys/younger guys that shouldn't have those stats to C+/B- instead and then erase the bottleneck there by dropping some of the existing C+/B-'s to C-/C's we should be good.

 

Honestly the brawling stats will prob require some more significant drops (and can be made to work stiffer instead since that seemed to be the intent) but it won't be so bad.

 

Besides... honestly the game has some problems as it concerns pushing younger guys over the long term (see the thread on general concerning re-gens and also my suggestion thread in TEW 2010). So in some ways the current C-Verse isn't properly balanced in the sense that we should probably make the older guys a little bit worse than typical (so they retire earlier) and the younger guys a bit better than the CVerse baseline (so the CPU doesn't ignore them in sims).

[hellshock70]

I dunno, I'm skeptical about an 18-3 advantage in brawling over a universe (the C-Verse) that we're only 86% the size of. Particularly because so many of those guys are so old and there is only once precedent in 2300 workers across three databases of a guy over 40 having a B+ or higher in a top row brawling stat.

 

That said, it's nothing we can't address.

 

The other top row stats at BT - like you pointed out - are fine at the B+ level for the most part (just a bit on the high side) although I didn't screen for age which I need to.

 

7 workers B+ or higher aerial

17 workers B or higher aerial

5 workers B+ or higher mat

18 workers B or higher mat

27 workers B or higher chain

9 workers B+ or higher chain

16 workers B or higher submissions

9 workers B+ or higher submissions

 

If you go by Pro Wrestling Illustrated stats GDS short changes a lot of people in the real world mods. Always remember, stats are generally an opinion unless it can be proven. How do you prove the stats of something predetermined?

[Kobe1724]

It's worth noting that we aren't trying to build a mod like any other (but rather an entirely a unique one), but the reason I'm citing other mods stat benchmarks is because it places into context what the gameworld can become.

 

That is to say... a real world mod like 2002/1997 has a talent base to support maybe six national level promotions, and probably closer to 4/4.5 (globally, that is).

 

The CVerse on the other hand can easily support 9-10 national promotions, and after deep simming can support almost fifteen (although national battles will push them back down to cult).

 

I say that to say that when developing our mod beyond looking at stat breakdowns and just comparing them to others what we really want to do is look at what the game world was at its recent apex and also what we want it to be at its future apex.

 

The U.S., for example had US-A as a major (international or very high national iirc) promotion which means it had a huge talent base. That talent base still exist post bloody Sunday, but it's just dispersed. There are also quite a few high cult promotions in the data that could be national in the near future.

 

That said, when designing the data if we make it too chock full of the talent then the game world has to expand upwards to compensate.

 

In our mod because a few events dramatically altered the game world into a depressed state we actually want the game world to expand dramatically upward (typically in a mod you might not want this because it means the world wasn't properly balanced). But we want to do it in a realistic way in the sense that if tomorrow the WWE broke up and it's workers scattered across the globe we wouldn't see a "new" WWE level promotion in five years.

 

Instead, it would be a 10-12 year process (or more) where a few promotions established themselves as the new world leaders. If in 5-7 years we have five new national promotions the data has too much talent.... alternatively if it takes 20 to have one new national promotion there isn't enough. It's all about figuring out where you want the data to go, understanding why it's going where it's going and then creating that.

 

I'm looking at the C-Verse/real world mods as a guide because the talent levels in our mod pre-bloody Sunday seem to have been comparable to the C-Verse based on the promotion sizes (exceptions - Japan in the C-Verse is better than in our mod, but the UK and Europe are much better in our mod).

 

It seems obvious now, but in many ways it's probably important to figure out what we want our mod to look like in ten years and what it looked like in the ten years before in order to create a game universe that meshes with our vision as a community.

 

I'm trying to stat balance based on what I've read in the database and on what people have been saying, but a dialogue there would really create some context. ^_^

[Kobe1724]

If you go by Pro Wrestling Illustrated stats GDS short changes a lot of people in the real world mods. Always remember, stats are generally an opinion unless it can be proven. How do you prove the stats of something predetermined?

 

^^ The advantage I was referring to is in C-Verse but I see your point.

 

You can't, really. Who is better on the mic, Flair, Hogan or Rock? And how big is the difference? 92/96/95 or 88/91/99? The games system focuses on minutia when reality is far more subjective.

 

That said, I think the goal of a real world mod is to accurately sim the real world over an extended period of time.

 

That is to say, a 1997 mod if left to it's own devices should closely mimic wrestling as it happen from now to the present day. Maybe that involves making Austin a 99 in mic skills and Hogan a 95 (even if it could be argued that it's the other way around), or maybe it involves making Kenta Kobashi a little worse than he actually is in real life relative to other workers because the way Japanese popularity in game is weighted would otherwise cause his promotion to hit international when it never did in actuality.

 

A real world mod - or any mod - should accurately simulate the game world in a way that its creators intended.

 

Is our data meant to be able to support 2-3 global promotions alongside 5-6 national promotions at the start? I have to admit I've been acting under the assumption that it isn't and trying to stat balance accordingly, but if the idea is that our universe is packed with that much wrestling talent then that's a poor assumption on my part.

 

If so, the question becomes why is it that to this point there haven't been multiple promotions that good in the data? I've been looking at the way our datas history was and assuming a talent base from that. Currently we're packed with guys in their 40's that could main event for WWE (or 3 WWE's for that matter) easily, so why didn't they/why weren't there more international/global U.S. based promotions around if that sort of talent is there? The games history doesn't talk of multiple global level promotions that are now defunct so one would assume they weren't there, but if that history exist within the context of the game universe then maybe it makes sense to have 15+ guys with Stone Cold/Lou Thesz level brawling ability.

 

Personally I like to be stingy with stats, but its a community project so as long as what's happening makes sense in the context of the game world I'm okay with it. I'm just trying to make sense of things right now by using numbers because that's what I do, but if my assumptions are wrong just help me to understand better. ^_^

[ewanite]

Finally found that CW BG

 

http://i1005.photobucket.com/albums/af173/ewanite/boardeffort11-1.jpg

[MJStark]

Is our data meant to be able to support 2-3 global promotions alongside 5-6 national promotions at the start? I have to admit I've been acting under the assumption that it isn't and trying to stat balance accordingly, but if the idea is that our universe is packed with that much wrestling talent then that's a poor assumption on my part.

 

If so, the question becomes why is it that to this point there haven't been multiple promotions that good in the data? I've been looking at the way our datas history was and assuming a talent base from that. Currently we're packed with guys in their 40's that could main event for WWE (or 3 WWE's for that matter) easily, so why didn't they/why weren't there more international/global U.S. based promotions around if that sort of talent is there? The games history doesn't talk of multiple global level promotions that are now defunct so one would assume they weren't there, but if that history exist within the context of the game universe then maybe it makes sense to have 15+ guys with Stone Cold/Lou Thesz level brawling ability.

 

Personally I like to be stingy with stats, but its a community project so as long as what's happening makes sense in the context of the game world I'm okay with it. I'm just trying to make sense of things right now by using numbers because that's what I do, but if my assumptions are wrong just help me to understand better. ^_^

 

Or is it that even before US-A's downfall the business had been in the toilet for a while, meaning that even though the talent was there the rival promotions couldn't grow and/or died, meaning that many workers took work where they could get it for smaller promotions, those promotions got more popular quickly due to better workers than they deserve but couldn't afford it (the regional to cult trap) and fell by the wayside. So the wrestling history books would be littered with tonnes of flash in the pan promotions not worth noting till US-A finally fell. With their domination no longer smothering the industry it picks up again.

 

Plus it is a good excuse to have a lot of those US workers able to work overseas, as they would have been more willing to look elsewhere for work

[ewanite]

http://i1005.photobucket.com/albums/af173/ewanite/boardeffort12-1.png

 

http://i1005.photobucket.com/albums/af173/ewanite/boardeffort12.jpg

[hellshock70]

Here is one telling sign of the game world. For the proposed 1985 start date of BEM: Retro to explore the World at the peak of US-A dominance the mod looks like this.

 

U.S. - Florida, Hawaii, LSSWL, JIPW (NACPW) and US-A

Japan - The Kokka No trio

Mexico - GLLM, MPWA

Europe - RCW, USSR

 

Drop it back to look at 1975:

 

Only GLLM and the 5 U.S. promotions exist

 

So between those 2 dates and current data there was some major upheavals. Companies going out of business, etc. and the majority of the guys who are currently in the retirement zone where just breaking into the business between 1985 and 1990. Gonna be interesting to expand the universe and fill in the blanks which is why at random I push for the other two projects to get started.

 

BEM: Retro fills out our history.

BEM: Future Shocks fills out our future.

[hellshock70]

BEM: Retro fills out our history.

 

I read some where (not sure if its the start of this thread or in the 2008) that Australia once housed a major National promotion that went out of business. I expanded on that by dropping a hint that the Australian government forced it out of business.

 

Quite a few instances exist of other feds that the US-A put out of business.

 

And if you check the current game world you'll find most areas in a different level of evolution from each other.

 

Australia is rebuilding, the U.S. is on the verge of companies breaking back out, Europe is at a stand still with neither Eastern & Western feds gaining that little extra (Central Europe a no man's land is key), UK has a dominate fed getting ready to break out and take over, Mexico is locked in a National War between two powers (one rising, one falling), Japan has one National power at its peak in danger of falling because the guys that got them there are close to retirement.

 

Getting started on Retro takes our title histories to a simpler point, gives us more aging color guys and road agents, defunct titles but more importantly it fills out the back story, our history.

[MJStark]

Here is one telling sign of the game world. For the proposed 1985 start date of BEM: Retro to explore the World at the peak of US-A dominance the mod looks like this.

 

U.S. - Florida, Hawaii, LSSWL, JIPW (NACPW) and US-A

Japan - The Kokka No trio

Mexico - GLLM, MPWA

Europe - RCW, USSR

 

Drop it back to look at 1975:

 

Only GLLM and the 5 U.S. promotions exist

 

So between those 2 dates and current data there was some major upheavals. Companies going out of business, etc. and the majority of the guys who are currently in the retirement zone where just breaking into the business between 1985 and 1990. Gonna be interesting to expand the universe and fill in the blanks which is why at random I push for the other two projects to get started.

 

BEM: Retro fills out our history.

BEM: Future Shocks fills out our future.

 

Would there be any way to push Kokka No's opening date waaaaaaay back and have it be that your two guys came in when you have it set to debut and took over? It could have been too stagnent in a dead industry (ie, only them and a couple of local feds) and your boys came in, made some massive changes and re-ignited the industry in Japan.

 

EDIT: Just realised I made a referance to the industry in the toilet twice in as many posts. It could work though. Guys spent years in a dead industry polishing their skills for $300 a pop in gyms, bars and community centres 2/3 nights a week across the world. So now the industry is back on its feet we have a generation of older, skilled hungry workers all ready to finally have a proper go at the wrestling business and less young bucks as wrestling is only just getting popular again.

[Kobe1724]

I read some where (not sure if its the start of this thread or in the 2008) that Australia once housed a major National promotion that went out of business. I expanded on that by dropping a hint that the Australian government forced it out of business.

 

Quite a few instances exist of other feds that the US-A put out of business.

 

And if you check the current game world you'll find most areas in a different level of evolution from each other.

 

Australia is rebuilding, the U.S. is on the verge of companies breaking back out, Europe is at a stand still with neither Eastern & Western feds gaining that little extra (Central Europe a no man's land is key), UK has a dominate fed getting ready to break out and take over, Mexico is locked in a National War between two powers (one rising, one falling), Japan has one National power at its peak in danger of falling because the guys that got them there are close to retirement.

 

Getting started on Retro takes our title histories to a simpler point, gives us more aging color guys and road agents, defunct titles but more importantly it fills out the back story, our history.

 

Yeah, the data is really similar to the CVerse as far as the number of high cult/national promotions in its history being way higher than in the real world. That's awesome because it gives us a higher talent base, and also because it makes the CVerse an awesome/convenient reference point when balancing the data in many respects. ^_^

[Kobe1724]

Would there be any way to push Kokka No's opening date waaaaaaay back and have it be that your two guys came in when you have it set to debut and took over? It could have been too stagnent in a dead industry (ie, only them and a couple of local feds) and your boys came in, made some massive changes and re-ignited the industry in Japan.

 

EDIT: Just realised I made a referance to the industry in the toilet twice in as many posts. It could work though. Guys spent years in a dead industry polishing their skills for $300 a pop in gyms, bars and community centres 2/3 nights a week across the world. So now the industry is back on its feet we have a generation of older, skilled hungry workers all ready to finally have a proper go at the wrestling business and less young bucks as wrestling is only just getting popular again.

 

Our age distribution is actually cool as far as older workers are concerned since it reflects that the industry went through a period of disjointed growth. That said, it would have been difficult for guys to get the consistent workrate against quality opponents (being how dispersed they are across the world and how many fewer shows would have been run) required to be super talented workers.

[hellshock70]

BEM: Future Shocks fills out our future.

 

Getting started on this evaluates some of the already created future feds, gives us a fresh set of future workers and future feds to add into the current mod as well. The future workers are greatly needed at this point and maybe going to the future and working with those guys as if it was their time will create more fluidity with how they fit into the current game world.

 

And another big thing is NO ONE else does it. We set ourselves apart by creating the future or a possible future. Everyone else explores the past.

 

By the time we get 2 more TEW's from GDS most of the years between C-verse '75 and 2010 will be covered. There is already a project to establish what happened in the last 12 months for the C-verse and could be at least one more current update (the 2011 year) by the next game.

 

After they fill the gaps they will either have to drop even earlier (before 1975) or other people could even try to reimagine years that have been done (for if they add Africa & South America in future editions) or they look to possible futures where we will have done it first.

[hellshock70]

Would there be any way to push Kokka No's opening date waaaaaaay back and have it be that your two guys came in when you have it set to debut and took over? It could have been too stagnent in a dead industry (ie, only them and a couple of local feds) and your boys came in, made some massive changes and re-ignited the industry in Japan.

 

EDIT: Just realised I made a referance to the industry in the toilet twice in as many posts. It could work though. Guys spent years in a dead industry polishing their skills for $300 a pop in gyms, bars and community centres 2/3 nights a week across the world. So now the industry is back on its feet we have a generation of older, skilled hungry workers all ready to finally have a proper go at the wrestling business and less young bucks as wrestling is only just getting popular again.

 

Thats been a consideration for a while since they started a lucha/puro style. That can be the reason for it's gains as straight puro was on a down swing. Kokka No evolved and its competitors went under.

 

When US-A took over Americans went south, Lucha went to Japan because of that and created a bigger boom in the Puro/Lucha mix.

[hellshock70]

Our age distribution is actually cool as far as older workers are concerned since it reflects that the industry went through a period of disjointed growth. That said, it would have been difficult for guys to get the consistent workrate against quality opponents (being how dispersed they are across the world and how many fewer shows would have been run) required to be super talented workers.

 

This has also led to a number of wrestling schools that are more prestigious than their parent companies.

[BHK1978]

When I was making America at the start (before you all came into my sandbox:p) I had a vision of our 1970's and 1980's mirroring the real world to some extent. The only real big difference is that maybe US-A took over the United States in the late 1970's.

 

The Hawaiian and Florida promotions are supposed to be our NWA. They are the only major remnants of our NWA. If we were to go to the past there would be a lot of other promotions under the Federal Wrestling Council. I was thinking one in each of the regions. So there would have been one in Buffalo, Boston, Chicago, etc.

 

There was no plans for an AWA type promotion but I am sure we could put one in there that closed.

[hellshock70]

Would there be any way to push Kokka No's opening date waaaaaaay back and have it be that your two guys came in when you have it set to debut and took over? It could have been too stagnent in a dead industry (ie, only them and a couple of local feds) and your boys came in, made some massive changes and re-ignited the industry in Japan.

 

EDIT: Just realised I made a referance to the industry in the toilet twice in as many posts. It could work though. Guys spent years in a dead industry polishing their skills for $300 a pop in gyms, bars and community centres 2/3 nights a week across the world. So now the industry is back on its feet we have a generation of older, skilled hungry workers all ready to finally have a proper go at the wrestling business and less young bucks as wrestling is only just getting popular again.

 

We still have some feds out there, some of older ones that are loosely connected. Some things are slowly taking shape while others have formed a near seamless flow.

 

At some point we need to revisit the older ones (especially ones created from the 2008 database) and make more ties which is part of why I stopped on bios as the number of promotions and workers increased. When I came onto the project at least half or more of the promotions were in place but only 1/4 of the workers.

 

Well, a little more than 1/4 but definitely not 1/3.

[Prophet]

There was no plans for an AWA type promotion but I am sure we could put one in there that closed.

 

We did, moved it to Canada, and called it CWW. Or, it could be, once I tweak things. lol

[BHK1978]

We did, moved it to Canada, and called it CWW. Or, it could be, once I tweak things. lol

 

I thought CWW was more our version of Stampede.

 

 

Which is another thing here is what my promotions are supposed to be:

 

US-A: A WWF type promotion that has a product more in tune with the NWA.

 

TWA: This is more or less our version of TNA.

 

LSSWL: World Class, complete with the drug addicts.

 

FCW Florida and Hawaii: No real world matches, I guess if I had to say maybe ROH.

 

BWA: No real world matches.

 

BSW: No real world matches, but I guess it could be like Smokey Mountain.

 

EWO: No real world matches.

 

PEIPW: No real world matches, I just really thought it would be cool for Prince Edward Island to have a promotion named after it.

[Prophet]

Actually, it could equate to Stampede, being that Stag would bring in younger talent, and help them blossom. That's actually a good call ... might need to create 14 more Lief children, though. lol

[hellshock70]

I thought CWW was more our version of Stampede.

 

 

Which is another thing here is what my promotions are supposed to be:

 

US-A: A WWF type promotion that has a product more in tune with the NWA.

 

TWA: This is more or less our version of TNA.

 

LSSWL: World Class, complete with the drug addicts.

 

FCW Florida and Hawaii: No real world matches, I guess if I had to say maybe ROH.

 

BWA: No real world matches.

 

BSW: No real world matches, but I guess it could be like Smokey Mountain.

 

EWO: No real world matches.

 

PEIPW: No real world matches, I just really thought it would be cool for Prince Edward Island to have a promotion named after it.

 

BWA - JCW (Juggalo Championship Wrestling)

[MJStark]

BWA - JCW (Juggalo Championship Wrestling)

 

I thought BWA was a lot less hardcore and a lot more comedy than JCW? I'm sure when I got asked to do the titles I was told it wasnt as 'scary' a promotion as the logo makes out

[hellshock70]

Our age distribution is actually cool as far as older workers are concerned since it reflects that the industry went through a period of disjointed growth. That said, it would have been difficult for guys to get the consistent workrate against quality opponents (being how dispersed they are across the world and how many fewer shows would have been run) required to be super talented workers.

 

Not quite as hard as you would think. A good portion of the dojos are being run or have been run by several decades worth of workers that compete or have competed at a high level.

 

So there is a portion that would come in a lot better prepared and also by now the ones with top level talent or the potential for top level talent traveled or are traveling for that competition.

 

That was a staple of the real world 80's wrestling. There would be more current traveling in our mod to get to those super talented workers. Ric Flair didn't get to his point by wrestling WWE or TNA stars because he was stuck in one fed, he traveled the world and faced a who's who in wrestling and in the process even wrestled other World Champions.

 

One guy that I created (i still have some tweaking to do) by the name of Alpha is so intent on getting picked up he has a PPA contract with three developmental leagues on 3 different continents.

 

 

Would there be any way to push Kokka No's opening date waaaaaaay back and have it be that your two guys came in when you have it set to debut and took over?

 

Done. Pushed back to 1957 after checking up on post World War II Japan. Their economy started picking up in 1955 and took off fairly quick.