The All Elite Wrestling Discussion Thread

[Mootinie]

On 12/20/2023 at 7:41 PM, ColdBloodedSausageMaker said:

I would be shocked if MJF left.

I wouldn't be. He's 27-years-old and wrestling is a short career, WWE is the place to be and he's pretty much done it all in AEW now. I expect that he will stay because AEW have done right by him but he might think that the time is right to have his shot on the bigger stage.

[ColdBloodedSausageMaker]

38 minutes ago, Mootinie said:

I wouldn't be. He's 27-years-old and wrestling is a short career, WWE is the place to be and he's pretty much done it all in AEW now. I expect that he will stay because AEW have done right by him but he might think that the time is right to have his shot on the bigger stage.

MJF appears really dedicated to the vision and product of AEW.

He seems to truly believe in the direction of the company and the product.

MJF is AEW's Sting. He's very much loyal to the company.

When he isn't in character, MJF seems completely on-board with the AEW vision. And I say that as someone who is critical of the company.

I doubt he'll leave anytime soon.

[Matt_Black]

There's also the fact that in AEW, he's basically THE guy. In WWE, he'll be A guy. He'll most likely play second fiddle to Roman, Seth, Cody, and whoever strikes Vince or HHH's fancy that particular month.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that in WWE, he'd most likely be jobbing out a LOT, because they do that with popular guys, because "oh, they can eat lots of pins, they'll get their heat back."

Edited December 24, 2023 by Matt_Black

[Fleisch]

Rant.... skip ahead if you don't like bad things said about AEW. I even mention Jim Cornette so there is your "trigger" warning! Seriously... don't upset yourself by reading this. If you love AEW, this post is not for you so just ignore it. You'll only ruin your day.

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.

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Let me say first that in 2019, 2020 and 2021 I was behind AEW. I bought into the hype. I was onboard and watching Dynamite every week. I hoped they would finally offer an alternative that gave us pro wrestling, storylines and a bit of unpredictable booking from time to time. My love for pro wrestling had returned. My interest started to be tested in 2022... It is a shame, that at the end of 2023 I am pretty much done with the company. What once had varied shows with some fun matches is now little more than "blood, flips and overbooking". The title of the "what killed AEW" book.

An example of predictability. This Continental Classic tournament. We're still heading for a Mox v. Kingston final as I predicted. I dont see the  Kingston appeal myself. Uninteresting character whose gimmick is the guy down the pub who doesn't shut up. 

I guess they have to clear any winner with NJPW too seeing as one of their belts is involved but the outcome of this is only going to be saved if Swerve somehow wins it... but he won't. I've said from the minute the competitors were announced who the final would be.

Beyond this tournament, AEW have fallen into the trap of trying to compete with WWE rather than put on entertaining and coherent shows. It was nice whilst it lasted but AEW are exactly what Jim Cornette says they are and its a shame because they could have been an alternative for pro wrestling instead of an indie "blood and flips" show with a rich mark owner. They are more GCW than ECW or WCW. They are never competing with WWE whilst TK is booking the whole thing like an E-Fed. "Of course you can get all your spots in. Don't worry about selling moves - everyone knows its predetermined pretend violence anyway... we don't need to make them suspend their belief. I'm your buddy - one of the boys, not your boss." The TK mantra.

Not every match needs 20 minutes of overbooking, finisher kick outs and some sort of shenanigans. A few 10 min matches hell the odd 6 or 7 minute match can tell a story... IF the guys in the ring are talented. Moxley doesn't need to claret up every time he has a match. He is decent enough that he can just have a match. These luchadors need to show the technical side of Lucha Libre more. If all they can do is flips, they are not a luchador! They are a gymnast. Luchadors are more than just "how can I nearly kill myself today". Komander is one of the WORST luchadors I've ever seen. He is a phenomenal gymnast but wrestler? No. If your opponent has to stand like a potato for 20 seconds whilst you ready your "big moves" then you lose the flow of the match and you lose the believability in what you are doing. Yet fans are acting like he's the second coming of El Santo! He's not even the second coming of Laredo Kid! I'm not saying no one should do flips - I'm saying only those who can do them without puting a gaping hole in the middle of the match should. And also - if you're hit with a big move, sell it for more than 3 seconds! Its supposed to be simulated violence not capoeira.

If WWE come knocking on any of these guys doors they should go! I don't even watch WWE but I'd imagine there's more structure and an actual hierarchy where EVPs are not running around like children doing as they please to the detriment of the company (yes I'm talking about the Young Bucks). Rather than an owner who is more interested in being "friends" than a boss. Who let's the lunatics run the asylum and treat the company as little more than an ATM.

Unless TK gets off the sniff and finally admits there are improvements needed (getting a team to help book for example) rather than saying "its great, we're great, that's great... Great, great, great!" Then AEW will continue losing its audience and will just become a "do you remember that promotion..." story.

This is just my opinion/feelings and whether you agree or not is fine. It won't change my mind anymore than my mad man ramblings will change yours. 🙂

[Big Roguey]

i think we all need to move past implying tony khan is a user of cocaine in 2024/going forward.

[milamber]

- Danielson vs Claudio was my MOTN.
- Top Flight Action vs Assclaimed (c) was solid. We need new Trios Champions. Maybe LFI to get gold on Rush.
- Rare Hook promo.
- Cage vs Lee was good.
- Chin, t**s, shoe!
- Father Christmas Cage. Shayna cut a decent promo and got some heat.
- Ibushi to partner with Jericho?
- King vs Garcia was good. Garcia winning capped off an interesting character arc in the C2.
- Hart & Skye vs Rosa & Abadon was solid. All 4 women have killer entrances.
- Kingston vs Andrade was great.

Edited December 24, 2023 by milamber

[milamber]

Shibata is All Elite:

Dear Tony Khan

Today, I have signed the contract with AEW under a permission from New Japan Pro-Wrestling.

In the past year, I worked for AEW/ROH and I learned how wonderful the AEW is.

This is the best environment where wrestlers can focus only on fighting in the ring.

And the love for professional wrestling is overflowing from Tony and all the people who work for him.

I want to make AEW’s ring the last end point of The Wrestler’s career.

I dedicate my wrestler life to Tony Khan, and AEW.

Thank You

Katsuyori Shibata

[milamber]

Women's entrances were great.

[Matt_Black]

2 hours ago, milamber said:

- King vs Garcia was good. Garcia winning capped off an interesting character arc in the C2.
 

I loved how, despite the onscreen differences, Daddy Magic came in to try and save Garcia and was covering him up.

[Mootinie]

7 hours ago, Fleisch said:

Unless TK gets off the sniff and finally admits there are improvements needed (getting a team to help book for example) rather than saying "its great, we're great, that's great... Great, great, great!" Then AEW will continue losing its audience and will just become a "do you remember that promotion..." story.

He has given other people power at various points though.

He let The Young Bucks have booking power and that gave us the Dark Order minions skit. He let Cody have booking power and that gave us the Anthony Ogogo weigh-in, Cody solving racism and randomly putting loads of gel on his back to go through a flaming table. He let Brandi Rhodes do her stupid Nightmare Collective storyline which was obviously her idea and was entirely self-serving. He's let Jimmy Jacobs turn AEW into comedy skit central with all sorts of wacky character presentations and stupid pre tape vignettes. Sonjay Dutt clearly has input on things, he's supposedly a part of the creative team according to an official AEW press release. Kenny Omega apparently books the women's stuff sometimes. Tony reportedly gave Collision to CM Punk and Bryan Danielson who turned it into Clash Of The Champions with its 20 minute TV matches and a more old school presentation. Jericho has spoken at length about his booking power and his professional relationship with TK. It's known that QT Marshall used to put together the TV layouts and do some bits with the creative. Moxley has said he shoots from the hip on his promos and does a lot of his own stuff. Big Swole said the whole culture is that talent have to pitch stuff so there's obviously some freedom and an opportunity to be an active part of creative if that is what a talent wants. Janela has backed this up and said he simply wasn't confident enough in pitching his own stuff to succeed in AEW.

Sorry for the wall of text. 😂 But yes, all that is to say that Tony doesn't do it alone. Finding the right team and getting the right people around you is obviously very hard in pro wrestling.

[ColdBloodedSausageMaker]

13 hours ago, Matt_Black said:

There's also the fact that in AEW, he's basically THE guy. In WWE, he'll be A guy. He'll most likely play second fiddle to Roman, Seth, Cody, and whoever strikes Vince or HHH's fancy that particular month.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that in WWE, he'd most likely be jobbing out a LOT, because they do that with popular guys, because "oh, they can eat lots of pins, they'll get their heat back."

I don't know that I agree with this. Maybe when Vince was still in power, a smaller guy like MJF wouldn't be used to his full potential.

I don't think HHH has the same blind spots. MJF would be rightfully be a top guy for years there.

MJF is a generational in-ring worker with a killer promo. He's a heat magnet who the fans love to hate.

WWE has a great track record pushing and developing AEW talent. They've treated Jade Cargill and Cody Rhodes like worldbeaters even though fans were turning on both when they left AEW.

MJF is way better than Cody or Jade. He's probably slots right behind Roman and Cody when he joins, and after Roman gets beat.

If anything, MJF wouldn't have to be face -- be the "face of the company" -- in WWE. He'd get to be the top heel like HHH.

MJF is AEW -- he's at the center of every program and in all the top feuds. You have to keep him babyface -- he's so much better the fans demand it.

I'm not sure the WWE fans would, and they probably wouldn't right away. MJF could have a career-defining heel run in WWE.

But that's theoretical. I don't think MJF wants to leave.

He's invested.

[aXminster]

Mox vs Kingston is the worst outcome possible. That's my bathroom break for saturday.

Sammy back with Jericho for what it feels like the 100th time. I'm a fan of both but I don't want to see that anymore.

So is Joe the devil? If not, why is he working for the devil? That's so bad, it just screams WWE and I don't like WWE.

[ColdBloodedSausageMaker]

1 hour ago, aXminster said:

Mox vs Kingston is the worst outcome possible. That's my bathroom break for saturday.

Sammy back with Jericho for what it feels like the 100th time. I'm a fan of both but I don't want to see that anymore.

So is Joe the devil? If not, why is he working for the devil? That's so bad, it just screams WWE and I don't like WWE.

Adam Cole getting hurt threw the whole main event scene up in the air, and left AEW scrambling for a suitable dance partner for MJF.

I think there have been some understandable missteps caused by unexpected injuries.

Joe, in particular, hasn't been booked well recently.

I don't blame AEW too much -- injuries are hard to predict, and the main event scene has a lot of miles on it.

I do think going forward the company would do well to manage their stars better. Guys like Adam Cole and Daniel Bryan shouldn't be wrestling much on TV, and when they are, they should be heavily protected in multi-man tag matches. Especially when they are already hurt.

AEW has a lot of guys there who are pretty beat up.

Have them cut promos, be involved in run-ins, but don't have them taking bumps unless it's a big show.

[aXminster]

2 hours ago, ColdBloodedSausageMaker said:

Adam Cole getting hurt threw the whole main event scene up in the air, and left AEW scrambling for a suitable dance partner for MJF.

I think there have been some understandable missteps caused by unexpected injuries.

Joe, in particular, hasn't been booked well recently.

I don't blame AEW too much -- injuries are hard to predict, and the main event scene has a lot of miles on it.

I do think going forward the company would do well to manage their stars better. Guys like Adam Cole and Daniel Bryan shouldn't be wrestling much on TV, and when they are, they should be heavily protected in multi-man tag matches. Especially when they are already hurt.

AEW has a lot of guys there who are pretty beat up.

Have them cut promos, be involved in run-ins, but don't have them taking bumps unless it's a big show.

Then just move on. TK should've learn from the mess that was the Jade story when Statlander was injured and everything was put on a hold until she healed.

If Cole is hurt, leave him off TV until he is 100% and then you can continue the story. Or not. Sometimes you just gotta move on and adapt. Want to keep him on TV? Just have a segment every other week showing his progress. But you can't have your World Champion in this mess for this long.

But I agree that if Cole wasn't injured the story probably would've been different. Well, at least the ROH Tag Titles are gone. Hope I never see those again in my life.

[Croquemitaine]

4 hours ago, aXminster said:

Mox vs Kingston is the worst outcome possible. That's my bathroom break for saturday.

 

Glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. The absolute last two I wanted to see in the final. I swear, I'd have preferred Garcia vs. Briscoe. Hell, Garcia vs. Lethal.

Or, they could be sane, and have Danielson vs. Swerve or White and have an actually good match to help sell the PPV.

 

[ColdBloodedSausageMaker]

This was bad. All-around bad.

Probably the worst thing I've seen on AEW Television in a long time.

AEW overbooked this segment a ton.

Joe doesn't come out, apparently gets injured, and then fakes the injury and then turns on MJF -- like a month after Joe turned face.

MJF loses to masked job guys in three minutes after interference after a job guy gets the foot on the rope after MJF gets hit with a lead pipe. 

A job guy we haven't seen before got to pin the World Champion and ace. And to make things worse, there were more masked job guys there, so even if the job guys get revealed as a star it won't feel like they pinned MJF-- because they needed two other job guys to do it. 

The execution was not good. The in-ring stuff looked really poor.

This was like watching Vince Russo book WCW in 2000. 

Hope World's End is better.

Edited December 28, 2023 by ColdBloodedSausageMaker

[milamber]

- Mox vs White vs Swerve was great.

- Mariah May is the total package. All she lacks is TV experience. Riho!

- Cassidy lol. Hydration.

- Mel Coleman's artwork never misses. Sammy face turn again. The Don Callis family should be on TV more. Absolute chaos to end the segment.

- Impressive flow chart Roddy.

- Danielson vs Kingston was my MOTN. Great promos as well.

- Smart of Copeland not to engage in a promo battle with Christian.

- Statlander vs Skye was good. Huge win for Skye with a sick Avalanche Code Blue. Willow! Abadon! Stoke on commentary was a bonus.

- Harley in the Outcasts could be fun.

- MJF vs Here Come The Goons was an OK squash. Joe you sunovabitch. They need to start doing some reveals soon.

Continental Classic matches were PPV quality. Spreading out the non-wrestling segments and Danielson/Kingston main eventing would have made the show flow better.

Edited December 28, 2023 by milamber

[Fleisch]

And with that, Dynamite proved my point. Overbooked matches that didn't need to be so chaotic. It means nothing they do at PPV bar shooting someone in the face (although they'd still no sell it) is going to mean anything. What has happened to AEW? It used to be entertaining must watch TV and now its just Tony booking a mediocre E-Fed. This episode of Dynamite was "meh". Sammy is this generations Big Show. How many turns is that in 2023? I got dizzy thinking about his merry-go-round face/heel alignment.

Mox v. Kingston was the obvious final from the moment "we're having a tournament" was decided. AEW 2 years ago would likely have had the surprise of Swerve v. [Anyone] and it would have been entertaining.

I was on the fence about buying Worlds End but Dynamite has persuaded me to keep my money. The Mox v. White v. Swerve match was good but this show overall was very underwhelming.

It's frustrating because I used to like AEW - this criticism isn't coming from a place of hate but frustration at how good this company could be if it just streamlined their roster and focused. Stop the cheap overbooking.

[Matt_Black]

1 hour ago, milamber said:

- Harley in the Outcasts could be fun.

I was SO happy to see Harley on TV again. She quickly became the stand-out of the QTV segments (though Johnny *Insert Current Name Here* was fun too). I was concerned that with QT's departure, she'd get lost in the shuffle, so I'm glad they're finding something for her. Even if it is with Saraya who, thus far, has been a complete and utter drain on the women's division.

[The Swanton825]

How does Joe get involved in so many random heel turns? I still remember that stupid TNA storyline where he got attacked by Steiner, came back with huge babyface momentum and then "swerved" everyone by joining the Main Event Mafia during the King of the Mountain match.

[FellaLibby]

1 hour ago, The Swanton825 said:

How does Joe get involved in so many random heel turns? I still remember that stupid TNA storyline where he got attacked by Steiner, came back with huge babyface momentum and then "swerved" everyone by joining the Main Event Mafia during the King of the Mountain match.

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by FellaLibby

[hailthebulldog]

5 hours ago, The Swanton825 said:

How does Joe get involved in so many random heel turns? I still remember that stupid TNA storyline where he got attacked by Steiner, came back with huge babyface momentum and then "swerved" everyone by joining the Main Event Mafia during the King of the Mountain match.

Joe has been a heel the whole time. He was simply protecting MJF so he made it to their match. Now that he has done that, he is no longer protecting him.

[FellaLibby]

1 hour ago, hailthebulldog said:

Joe has been a heel the whole time. He was simply protecting MJF so he made it to their match. Now that he has done that, he is no longer protecting him.

But why fake injury in the first place? Joe could've easily joined MJF, betrayed him mid match and let the embodiments of Vacant get the win. Also Joe working *with* the demon just seems counterproductive to the idea of Samoa Joe. Yes he's worked in groups before, but he's a man who shouldn't be working with anyone. Him working with the demon all but assures he'll never win the top gold. Joe should be on his own, wrecking fools and betraying MJF only so he (MJF) is demoralized to the point he might lose to Joe. Sadly, that's not what we got.

[eayragt]

Just caught up and, it just doesn't make sense. Why not just take Joe out, win the titles, and leave it there? Two injured men going into the PPV to even out that disadvantage, if Joe's injury was fake you can reveal it then.

And what was that match? I'm fine with MJF going down in a 2 Vs 1 with interference, but it was poorly executed, right up to the rope assisted pin which was actually hindering the henchman making the pin. Granted, double the match length and you might accidentally reveal a henchman's moveset, but you've booked yourself into a corner with that match, if it turns out lame that's your fault.

I appreciate the Cole injury has derailed the storyline, but if you can't adapt with the stacked roster in AEW then something's wrong. At the moment I'm getting Aces and Spades vibes, which is not what anyone was looking for.

I assume that Joe will cut a promo saying he's not in league with the devil, and he'll blame MJF for being distracted, leading to uncertainty as to where he stands going into the Main Event. Now, I would like to see the henchmen come out during that Main Event, and Joe obliterate them with chair shots. I'm still struggling to book it from there though. They can't look too weak, so the best I can do is after the initial shots, Joe drags one of them to the ring and unmasks them, and is so shocked that it allows MJF to roll him up for the victory. Who could be that shocking? Well, that's where I'm out, the best I could do was Jack Perry, and I don't think he fits the bill. Maybe Christopher Daniels? That would have more of an affect on Joe, but makes no sense in the devil storyline.

The devils henchmen would then have to beat down both competitors to end the show to show some semblance of strength. Maybe they could claim the title as well, and get MJF to earn it back, while Joe stays in the picture as a beast solely looking out for himself.

Edited December 29, 2023 by eayragt

[Dawn]

32 minutes ago, eayragt said:

Just caught up and, it just doesn't make sense. Why not just take Joe out, win the titles, and leave it there? Two injured men going into the PPV to even out that disadvantage, if Joe's injury was fake you can reveal it then.

And what was that match? I'm fine with MJF going down in a 2 Vs 1 with interference, but it was poorly executed, right up to the rope assisted pin which was actually hindering the henchman making the pin. Granted, double the match length and you might accidentally reveal a henchman's moveset, but you've booked yourself into a corner with that match, if it turns out lame that's your fault.

I appreciate the Cole injury has derailed the storyline, but if you can't adapt with the stacked roster in AEW then something's wrong. At the moment I'm getting Aces and Spades vibes, which is not what anyone was looking for.

I assume that Joe will cut a promo saying he's not in league with the devil, and he'll blame MJF for being distracted, leading to uncertainty as to where he stands going into the Main Event. Now, I would like to see the henchmen come out during that Main Event, and Joe obliterate them with chair shots. I'm still struggling to book it from there though. They can't look too weak, so the best I can do is after the initial shots, Joe drags one of them to the ring and unmasks them, and is so shocked that it allows MJF to roll him up for the victory. Who could be that shocking? Well, that's where I'm out, the best I could do was Jack Perry, and I don't think he fits the bill. Maybe Christopher Daniels? That would have more of an affect on Joe, but makes no sense in the devil storyline.

The devils henchmen would then have to beat down both competitors to end the show to show some semblance of strength. Maybe they could claim the title as well, and get MJF to earn it back, while Joe stays in the picture as a beast solely looking out for himself.

Did you mean Aces n' Eights? That was actually a really good storyline up until the reveals started happening and it was one underwhelming reveal after the other.