Big size criteria for mainland regions should be same

[spiffyone]

Please consider revising so that "Taking America By Storm" is the criteria used for all of the mainland U.S. company: the necessary level pop in any five regions, but must include one's own and one adjacent region.

 

I somewhat understand the logic behind the criteria for reaching Big size being different for non-mainland regions as they are essentially cut off, but it really doesn't make much sense for mainland regions - particularly with regards to the U.S. and especially since it does impact historical mods in a rather significant, albeit unintended, way.

 

The way it's set up now, the criteria means that mid '80s WWF wouldn't accurately be a Big (that is, National) promotion during that time. WWF was national (Big), but it wasn't until the mid to late '90s that it popular enough in two of the regions (Mid-Atlantic and South East) necessary in game to achieve that size. Not giving it that level of pop in those two areas means it isn't Big when it should be, but doing that for those areas to make it Big doesn't accurately mimic its level of pop at the time in those two regions. Set up as-is makes WWF stronger than it was because it was very popular well outside the eastern seaboard area (in the Mid-West and South West) and weakens the southern promotions that were really the last one's standing against Vince's machine.

 

Having Big size use the "Taking America By Storm" criteria for all company bases, though, would allow the company to be Big sized and accurate to history (because, again, it did have enough pop in the Mid-West and South West) while also giving the companies in the hold out areas of the south more of a fighting chance as they had irl.

[justtxyank]

I'm not sure I agree with you. WWF in 1989 ran all over Florida, Alabama, North Carolina, etc. They drew 13,500 to the Charlotte Coliseum in 1989. They drew 4-10k throughout the year at various stops for house shows in Florida.

[Historian]

TEW considers Baltimore and DC to be in the mid Atlantic area as well and WWF was always big there.

[d12345]

TEW considers Baltimore and DC to be in the mid Atlantic area as well and WWF was always big there.

 

This. What the op is suggesting sounds like a mod problem more than a game balancing. WWF was as over in Virginia, Baltimore, Kentucky, and D.C. as they were in the tri-state area at the time. If they weren't they wouldn't be "Big"

[spiffyone]

I'm not sure I agree with you. WWF in 1989 ran all over Florida, Alabama, North Carolina, etc. They drew 13,500 to the Charlotte Coliseum in 1989. They drew 4-10k throughout the year at various stops for house shows in Florida.

 

On Charlotte: their first show at the venue. So they got a bump from that. No sites list attendance for the subsequent '89 show. There are no figures for the shows in '90. No figures typically mean less than stellar attendance. There were no shows at all in Charlotte in '91, apparently, so there's likely a reason for that (less than stellar figures in the two years previous). They go back in '92, and draw 1,300 for a matinee and 3,000 for a July show.

 

Go and look up the figures for their Tennessee shows, where they weren't drawing very well either on anywhere near a consistent basis in the '80s into the early '90s ('92 has a show where 7,500 attended...but only 3,700 paid).

 

My point stands.

[spiffyone]

TEW considers Baltimore and DC to be in the mid Atlantic area as well and WWF was always big there.

 

No. Hogan was big, to a point. Context is key here. Look up the gates, and you'll see that they were wildly inconsistent in Baltimore, JCP was outdrawing them there in the '80s. In that time frame, WWF was not "big there" as they were drawing in the low thousands.

 

This. What the op is suggesting sounds like a mod problem more than a game balancing. WWF was as over in Virginia, Baltimore, Kentucky, and D.C. as they were in the tri-state area at the time. If they weren't they wouldn't be "Big"

 

No, they weren't. Look up the attendance figures for the '80s into the early '90s (circa '91/92). They were drawing low in Kentucky, much lower than they were in the Tri-State. They consistently sold out MSG. They were lucky to get over 3500 in Louisville the few times that they tried there in the '80s. Same deal with VA. Less so in Baltimore, but not to the level you suggest. Of the four you mentioned, only D.C. was good for them, and even then it was NEVER as consistently big as they drew in the Tri-State.

 

As they weren't actually "big" in those areas in the '80s, they wouldn't be "Big" in-game under a mod that attempts for historical accuracy. That's my point. In order for them to be "Big" in the game, you have to go against their actual level of popularity in that region at the time in comparison with the competition housed in those areas, which puts the latter at a greater disadvantage than they were actually at irl and gives WWF a greater advantage than they actually had at that time.

 

In order for them to be "Big" in, say, '88, they have to have the capability to consistently draw 10k in the aforementioned Charlotte. As noted, they only drew that once in '89 for their first try in the Coliseum and then drew far less well into '92.

 

This isn't a mod problem. WWF was indeed "Big" irl, just not under the criteria used in the game. They were drawing the biggest in areas that would make them "Big" in game if the criteria were under "Taking America by Storm", which is my point. Any five mainland regions including one's own and an adjacent region. New England, Tri-State, Great Lakes, Mid West, South West. There's your five right there, and it was those five where WWF in the '80s was actually drawing high thousands for house shows and TV tapings on a consistent basis. That wasn't happening in the South East nor Mid-Atlantic regions at that time. Look up the figures.

[Historian]

On Charlotte: their first show at the venue. So they got a bump from that. No sites list attendance for the subsequent '89 show. There are no figures for the shows in '90. No figures typically mean less than stellar attendance. There were no shows at all in Charlotte in '91, apparently, so there's likely a reason for that (less than stellar figures in the two years previous). They go back in '92, and draw 1,300 for a matinee and 3,000 for a July show.

 

Go and look up the figures for their Tennessee shows, where they weren't drawing very well either on anywhere near a consistent basis in the '80s into the early '90s ('92 has a show where 7,500 attended...but only 3,700 paid).

 

My point stands.

 

Your point doesn’t stand though? Mid Atlantic is more than Charlotte in TEW. WWF was huge throughout Baltimore (part of TEW’s Mid Atlantic) and DC. They didn’t draw well In Tennessee, but they drew very well in Florida. There were definitely places WWF didn’t draw as well but other towns in those markets/regions by TEW standards they drew very well in. WWF ran the 90 and 91 rumble in Florida and both those shows did good business.

 

It’s the hard part about TEW regions. You can’t say WWE wasn’t over in the South East because they had trouble in Georgia and Tennessee — because they didn’t have trouble in Florida or any trouble (outside of economics from the oil bust) in Louisiana — both of which are South East. They did very well in Baltimore and DC — those two parts of the Mid Atlantic were always good towns for them but they didn’t do great in other traditional Crockett towns so I don’t think the size requirement, in this aspect, is wrong.

[spiffyone]

Your point doesn’t stand though? Mid Atlantic is more than Charlotte in TEW. WWF was huge throughout Baltimore (part of TEW’s Mid Atlantic) and DC. They didn’t draw well In Tennessee, but they drew very well in Florida. There were definitely places WWF didn’t draw as well but other towns in those markets/regions by TEW standards they drew very well in. WWF ran the 90 and 91 rumble in Florida and both those shows did good business.

 

It’s the hard part about TEW regions. You can’t say WWE wasn’t over in the South East because they had trouble in Georgia and Tennessee — because they didn’t have trouble in Florida or any trouble (outside of economics from the oil bust) in Louisiana — both of which are South East. They did very well in Baltimore and DC — those two parts of the Mid Atlantic were always good towns for them but they didn’t do great in other traditional Crockett towns so I don’t think the size requirement, in this aspect, is wrong.

 

 

"Huge in Baltimore"?

 

Let's go over the numbers:

 

'87 they drew 10k or over twice in that town, ran it about 10 times. The 10k was Hogan vs. Kamala on top, huge draw. Then subsequent gates of dwindling numbers, going as low as 3,500. Then the last is 12k for Bruno's last match at the end of the year, teaming with Hogan. Hogan was the draw in Baltimore that year, not WWF itself.

 

'88 two gates we have are 5500 and 7000. Quite good, but not matching the level of pop we'd have in the game if following the size criteria needed due to the base of operations.

 

'89 we have a sellout of nearly 15k. So much better there.

 

'90 we only have one show, no figures.

 

They're doing much better in Landover, yes, but is that one area enough to say that they were "Big" in the entire region?

 

Florida? Well-ish, but not as well as they were in places of actual "Big" pop for them (Tri-State, South West, Great Lakes, New England, Mid West) over a much larger swaths of those regions. South East, of which Florida is part, includes GA where they weren't a draw. Alabama where they weren't a draw (and hell, they were outdrawn by Continental consistently until Fuller sold, and even afterwards).

 

Vince didn't start getting over the southern hump until the very early '90s in those areas. It was the last hold out.

 

It's the size criteria that's the issue. IRL, they were at about a Medium in the Mid-Atlantic, South East, and Mid-South regions. But they were indeed Big in Tri-State, New England, Great Lakes, Mid-West, and South West. If the size criteria to be considered "Big" in game were under the "Taking America by Storm" criteria, they'd be Big due to those actual strengths but a bit weaker in the areas in contention ITT, which is more accurate to what the case actually was at the time.

 

I will state that I was in error mentioning "mid to late '90s" as the time line in the first post, as it was early '90s, but the greater point still does stand for '80s mods in particular. Are you going to argue that WWF wouldn't have been considered "Big" in '87? Attempting some measure of accuracy for that year in game is nearly impossible, because they'd be drawing higher in the game than they actually drew irl in that year or the year after up until '90/91 or so in the regions we're discussing. Again, in the '80s (when they actually were drawing bigger numbers in strong areas domestically than the early '90s, mind you) they'd have been Medium in the regions we're discussing. But they'd be Big nationally...if only the criteria were "Taking America by Storm" instead of the "Taking the East" criteria.