Thoughts On The New Version CBU

[djthefunkchris]

I am impressed with all that has been added as far as everything from Sites, to Artifacts, Storylines, etc. I love that. Every time I feel like it's missing something I end up finding it, except maybe "Information Broker", but then again I don't see where that would be used, which is a shame really... As I felt it was one thing that kept me a little more immersed into CBH (which I still play every now and then).

One of the things I really heavily like (I don't know why, but I do) is when you search, For example I have locations of cities where the editor name is City, State initials, Official name is City, State, and Game name is just the City name. Searching with any variable, gives you everything under that variable.. For example search "Virginia" gives you all the location cities I have under Virginia, although the editor name is City, Va. Or, you can just put in the initials with the same results. I figure it works in every part of the game (characters, Area's, etc.). Since finding this out, I've really payed more attention to what I name things in the editor now. 

The only real downfall so far, is the gameplay itself. It feels less personal then CBH did, because your not making a character, or playing a character.. Instead you're basically just hack and slashing with whatever characters are available, or at least that's my first impression. I have a feeling that after connecting with some of the characters, it will grow on you though.

The editor is very fun to play around in. like with CBH in that you can just "feel" the potential. I'm still finding things out as I play around in it, which is where I've been the majority of the time I've been able to have this game running.

How's everyone else liking it so far? Are you playing the game itself, or are you like me and can't seem to stay out of the editor? 

[Adam Ryland]

Just to note, you asked a few days ago for a way to 'skip' certain encounters to help with your gameplay experience; I'm almost finished testing it, so you should be seeing that appear in either 1.07 or 1.08.

[Cold Cobra]

10 hours ago, djthefunkchris said:

How's everyone else liking it so far? Are you playing the game itself, or are you like me and can't seem to stay out of the editor? 

.... Basically that, yeah. I enjoyed my time in the actual game but that just made me more excited to get a move on with my massive cross-over database so I can play it with characters and locations I'm familiar with. Sadly (well, in terms of what we're talking about) me of 10 or so years ago had all the time in the world to make the massive database, me now working 9-6 most weekdays and 9-5 every other Saturday is finding it slow going updating it. It's so much fun that there are times at work when I'm thinking about how to create a certain power or storyline in the game with the editor, but then I only have an hour or two in the evening to actually do it. I've got a set of "rules" in terms of health levels and attack power that seems to work well in test battles so I'm now pushing ahead with editing the characters, but yeah... I added a LOT back then.

Still, it's not like its going anywhere, and updating the characters with matching background pics and creating their moves and all that is really fun anyway, so it's not like its a slog waiting to play the actual game with the database.

So overall I'm with you, I'm very happy with the game but it will be a while before I'm deep into an actual game.

[Sons of Kohral]

The concept of storylines, artifacts and such is really powerful. You can really create a bunch of storylines or quests that beef up minor character and see them become gods, or the opposite, you can do a death of superman type gimmick. It's interesting and I feel like I've only cracked the surface.

 

I also like the default database. It's really fun and the characters are actually pretty interesting. I hate Albion though. I just sim everything if I get missions there.

[Blackman]

I've only played through the very first encounter/puzzle so far so I'm not giving any opinion on the game, but my purchase will heavily depend of there being mods that I can easily immerse myself in, like the DC, Marvel or the Buffyverse. So here's hoping people will step up and make some mods. Besides, I still need to get a big TEW game in, so no time for new games. 😅

[djthefunkchris]

On 11/7/2022 at 2:47 PM, Blackman said:

I've only played through the very first encounter/puzzle so far so I'm not giving any opinion on the game, but my purchase will heavily depend of there being mods that I can easily immerse myself in, like the DC, Marvel or the Buffyverse. So here's hoping people will step up and make some mods. Besides, I still need to get a big TEW game in, so no time for new games. 😅

I get that. I'm not holding my breath for the new mods coming fast though, there is simply too much data to complete for their to be a robust one anytime soon. However, I can see parts of these universes coming in, like a Gotham or Spiderman mod that includes mostly just the characters and places, things like CBH already had, to come in as partial mods to play around with in the coming weeks/months. I just can't see a completed database with full storylines, artifacts, reactive events, etc. all completed as these are things that (at least for me) are going to take some real time.

I keep going over the default database to try and figure out exactly "how to" do certain things. I'm still trying to figure out how to simulate certain powers and invulnerabilities

[Cold Cobra]

11 hours ago, djthefunkchris said:

I get that. I'm not holding my breath for the new mods coming fast though, there is simply too much data to complete for their to be a robust one anytime soon. However, I can see parts of these universes coming in, like a Gotham or Spiderman mod that includes mostly just the characters and places, things like CBH already had, to come in as partial mods to play around with in the coming weeks/months. I just can't see a completed database with full storylines, artifacts, reactive events, etc. all completed as these are things that (at least for me) are going to take some real time.

I keep going over the default database to try and figure out exactly "how to" do certain things. I'm still trying to figure out how to simulate certain powers and invulnerabilities

Have to agree here, I'm trying to do chunks of my mod at a time but that keeps leading me to discover things I'd missed before and go back over things I'd already considered finished! It'll be a good while before I (hopefully) post the first release of mine, but I am very hopeful it'll be great when it gets there...

[Blackman]

True. If you want to make a serious mod you should take care to know the game in and out, or you'll be left revising everything halfway through.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Believe it or not, I am working on an original character mod. I'll probably just blend it with the Default DB if I decide to release it. As opposed to just playing it myself because I'm not a renderer at all. I mean, who in blazes has the time to learn a new skill, make a mod, and tend to the responsibilities of adult life? But yeah, it's a lot of work for characters alone. And I've revised my standards for health and skills once each, requiring me to go back and update all the ones I'd "finished" each time. What's helping is that I've got a ton of experience working with the Mutants and Masterminds systems, so it's just a matter of converting properly and sliding in some neat things this game does well and those ones don't.

[LostInWeb]

3 hours ago, Eternal Phoenix said:

Believe it or not, I am working on an original character mod. I'll probably just blend it with the Default DB if I decide to release it. As opposed to just playing it myself because I'm not a renderer at all. I mean, who in blazes has the time to learn a new skill, make a mod, and tend to the responsibilities of adult life? But yeah, it's a lot of work for characters alone. And I've revised my standards for health and skills once each, requiring me to go back and update all the ones I'd "finished" each time. What's helping is that I've got a ton of experience working with the Mutants and Masterminds systems, so it's just a matter of converting properly and sliding in some neat things this game does well and those ones don't.

I'm pretty sure, my biggest task in the end will be to balance my own database. The adding of characters, locations, storys etc. is work for sure, but I'm making good progress with that. But the balancing to make it all fun to play could be a lot of work.

[Eternal Phoenix]

43 minutes ago, LostInWeb said:

I'm pretty sure, my biggest task in the end will be to balance my own database. The adding of characters, locations, storys etc. is work for sure, but I'm making good progress with that. But the balancing to make it all fun to play could be a lot of work.

Oh, yeah. Once I get all the characters finished, the combat testing shall begin. I should have enough villains to keep things moving, but I'm not certain. So that'll need testing, too. As for fun to play? That's so subjective I'm not even gonna try to entertain anyone other than myself. 😅

[LostInWeb]

58 minutes ago, Eternal Phoenix said:

That's so subjective I'm not even gonna try to entertain anyone other than myself.

Exactly my approach too.

[djthefunkchris]

So, I have a little time for a few days, and I've been trying to do some work, but it's not fast at all... I really miss the informants (I know I've said it before, but I truly do... very cool feature in CBH), Utility belts, etc. I think what's taking me so long is understanding the character set-up. I get the M&M reference mentioned earlier as I think that is understanding of the  "lower" numbers we are dealing with for stats. My biggest problem isn't with the low numbers, but more with "Health, Combat Skills" vs "Powers, Abilities, Traits". What if I want a character to be able to hit for the full amount, but only want them to hit as hard as it takes under normal conditions... Like, say they can hit for 12, but they are about to hit someone with only 4 hp... How do you make sure they don't hit them too hard?

The talk about balance is why I'm posting. I'm with the "subjective" agreement hear, but how are you guys doing the "Power" vs "Combat Skills" thing. Are you using one of them as the "bonus" points. What I mean is, let's say Hero 1 has a hit that can take 3 health off someone in a successful attack. Do you have the Combat Skill "Melee Attack" as 3, and the Power "Melee Physical Attack" as 0, or 1, or 3? Has anyone figured out a way to emulate The Hulk yet? 

One of the things I'm working on is "generic" types like bystanders, reporters, military, police, gang members, minions, etc. One of the reasons I miss informants so much, the general population to me is just as important as the heroes/villains. Anyone that reads comics knows they can be very important, not just plot devises... "I MUST SAVE Lois/Mary Jane/Betty Ross/Tina Carlyle/Honey Ryder (lol at the last 2, hero points for who gets them). They can be integral parts of a comic with their information and their expertise. 

This is all just throwing stuff against the wall, I'm not looking for definitive answers, unless you have some (lol). Just feels like we finally got an upgrade to a game we been waiting on for what seems like forever, and there's only a handful of us talking. Even the suggestions thread is lined up with just a few people (although with great suggestions IMO). 

I really enjoy reading and talking about this game, especially on the creative side. I do wish there was more community involvement though. I figure the sooner we get a few mods based on familiar comics, the more people will interact.

[Cold Cobra]

I've ended up going for the "Crossover fighting game rules" in that each of the characters in my game are "restricted" to the same rules: light attacks (1 damage), heavy attacks (2 damage) and special moves (3 damage) with most also getting a Super (4 damage but can only be used 6 times and normally not available in the first level of health) Some world / universe ending threats have one or two bigger damaging moves but they're normally a one-off when they're nearly defeated and still isn't in the double digits, damage wise. Likewise most characters have three or four levels of health, with each level giving them 5 HP, again with some super powerful (or popular) characters getting five levels, some low-tier getting two and the gag characters like Goombas or Galcias get just the one.

I've also dramatically reduced the frequency of being stunned by removing "stun if missed" and very few attacks have automatic stun (and if they do it normally does zero damage and can only be used once or twice) while abilities that allow people to dodge is 50/50 if they're really high-level, otherwise it's a harder thing to roll. This all allows the fights to be fierce and fun without too much worry about turns where nothing happens. Big time characters still feel stronger than the smaller ones but not to the point where it's hard to keep track of it.

Melee and Range attack points is really the only place where there is a big difference, with the previously mentioned top few heroes and villains having things in the early 20s but most having less as they go down the pecking order.

This all creates a world similar to those of Crossover fighting games, hence the title of my "rule set". Like in Marvel vs. Capcom 3 where Chris Redfield, flanked by lawyer Phoenix Wright and wrestler-turned-mayor Mike Haggar can take down Galactus because Chris used his Grenade Launcher super move at the right time... although that might be pushing it in this database, but you get what I mean. Your question about move strength compared to base strength, this is what I ended up going with, and in tests its proven to be very fun indeed.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that characters do still have loads of traits and abilities unique to them, this was just about power scaling! Just read this back and it sounded like I only gave people offensive moves, which would be something of a massive waste given the stuff on offer here...

Edited November 16, 2022 by Cold Cobra

[Eternal Phoenix]

Well, all I did was scroll through the default DB and check the ranges for uh...everything. Let's see here...

Attack power damage varies from 1 to 5, though 1 is obviously considered very low and 5 is very high. Shockwave attacks knock a point off this scale. And you'd be surprised just how many characters have a 3 damage attack in the arsenal, at least initially.

Damage resistance (or Resistance to Bodily Damage) varies from 0 (not having the power at all) to 3, with 0 being very low and 3 being extremely high. Captain Awesome and Mr. Infinity only have 2, for example, though the latter tacks on a partial for Physical Damage.

Attack skills, according to the handbook, are supposed to run from 9-12. This is mostly true, but very high level characters all dwell in the high end and even have 13s in their primary attack skill. Very low level characters, your basic cannon fodder, may have as low as 8. So it's a slightly larger scale.

Defense skills, according to the handbook, are supposed to run from 16-20. And again, this is mostly true. But, again, very high level characters all dwell in the high end and may even have a 21 or two in their defensive skills. Very low lever characters may even have 15s.

The thing to remember about attack vs defense skills, aside from scaling, is that this is a 2d6 dice system. So, needing 6+ to hit is a 50% chance. By default ties go to the defender, so attack skill 12 needs to roll a 7 or higher to hit defense skill 18 before any positional bonuses come into play. Though the spread in the default DB tends to favor a 7 point gap instead of that 6 point one. I don't know why.

Health I actually had to go back for. It's kind of a sliding scale. Unknowns to Minor Leaguers average about 4. Notables to Well Knowns average about 6. Renowneds to Iconics average about 8. There is a caveat. Character types known for their ability to endure damage (not resist it, that's in Powers) will likely have up to 2 more. And more fragile or jobbery character types can have up to 2 less. So...5-7 total health is kind of a logjam, as you can imagine. Yet even here, the rules get broken for very high level characters. Mr. Infinity has 13. Emperor Verendus has 14. There is no Civilian with more than 1. Except maybe that one hero in waiting. I'd have to check. So. You know.

Please do keep in mind that this is all from the default database, which should be a guide and not a straightjacket. If you want to be different, go for it!

Also I have tables, if anyone wants to see them.

[Eternal Phoenix]

9 hours ago, Eternal Phoenix said:

The thing to remember about attack vs defense skills, aside from scaling, is that this is a 2d6 dice system. So, needing 6+ to hit is a 50% chance. By default ties go to the defender, so attack skill 12 needs to roll a 7 or higher to hit defense skill 18 before any positional bonuses come into play. Though the spread in the default DB tends to favor a 7 point gap instead of that 6 point one. I don't know why.

Now I do know why. 6+ is actually about 58/59 percent chance to hit. It is 7+ to hit that is 50%. Starting with 2 instead of 1 can trip a brother up on his mental napkin math. 😅

[djthefunkchris]

12 hours ago, Eternal Phoenix said:

Also I have tables, if anyone wants to see them.

I would love to see/have them.

[Eternal Phoenix]

M&M Damage Bonus	CBU Attack Damage Amount
+1 to +4	1
+5 to +8	2
+9 to +12	3
+13 to +16	4
+17 to +20	5

This one is a rough guideline that depends a bit more on popularity level than anything absolute. Plenty of default DB characters are using weapons that would normally fit as 1 damage in this table, but have 2 or even 3 damage powers. I'm assuming that's for balance purposes, as none of those are in the jobber pop levels. The ones who are have the low damage one would expect. I know you may not know what the M&M numbers mean, and that's fine. Specifically because I'm sure you can count just fine. It's a d20 system, if you didn't know. So 20 is sky high and 1 is, well, not. I also might use weaker powers as the character gets damaged, or lose access to the good stuff. Occasionally I'll flip that around, getting stronger as they take damage. Be careful with Shockwave damage powers. They're game changers and should be treated as such. Hitting everyone not behind cover is very strong. Most of the default DB characters with shockwaves have them as either one shots or needing rolls to activate. The ones that don't are either low powered like Scot's Guard, or terrifyingly powerful foes you want to bring both Captain Awesome and Mr. Infinity to pound to a pulp. I don't think that's an accident, so you know. Be careful.

M&M Toughness Bonus	CBU Resistance to Bodily Damage Amount
+1 to +5	0
+6 to +10	1
+11 to +15	2
+16 to +20	3

Note: Impervious Toughness adds 1/3 (rounded down) to Toughness Save in this chart

Again, you can count. If you're not familiar with M&M mechanics, ignore my Impervious Toughness note.

M&M Attack Tradeoff	CBU Attack Skill (Minor League and near-ish)	CBU Attack Skill (Prominent and near-ish)	CBU Attack Skill (Renowned and near-ish)
-5	8	9	10
-4, -3	9	10	11
-2 to +2	10	11	12
+3, +4	11	12	13
+5	12	13	14

Here's where things gets spicy. M&M is a system build on relative balance. Nobody in their right mind would think Hulk and Hawkeye are the same relative power level, but in M&M they can be. If they were both Prominent, Hawkeye would likely have 12-13 for his Range Attack, while Hulk would probably get a 9 or 10  for his Melee (I'd be generous just so he might hit sometimes, but you don't need to be). This would be balanced out by things above. Hulk would hit like a train, having 4-5 Damage available to him. Hawkeye would, uh, not being doing that much damage. 2, maybe a limited use 3. You see how that balances? 

M&M Defense Tradeoff	CBU Defense Skill (Minor League and near-ish)	CBU Defense Skill (Prominent and near-ish)	CBU Defense Skill (Renowned and near-ish)
-5	15	16	17
-4, -3	16	17	18
-2 to +2	17	18	19
+3, +4	18	19	20
+5	19	20	21

And it's a similar story down here. Again, Hawkeye would probably have a 19-20, and Hulk would have a 16-17. But Hawkeye probably doesn't have any Resistance to Bodily Damage, and if he does it's a single point. Hulk has 2, minimum, and probably 3 when he gets extra angry.

	Obscure to Minor League	Notable to Well Known	Renowned to Legendary
Very Low	2	4	6
Low	3	5	7
Average	4	6	8
High	5	7	9
Very High	6	8	10

This is where I would further separate Hawkeye and Hulk in combat effectiveness. Hulk gets all of the health. A total of 8 health points, as they're both Prominent in this ongoing example. Hawkeye I'd leave with the average. 6 points. So when Hawkeye gets hit, he loses more of his lesser amount of health than Hulk does, and he doesn't do nearly as much damage when he hits. But on the flip side, he's much harder to hit than and doesn't miss as often as Hulk. As a side note, I'd also give Hawkeye Elusive or a combo of Danger Sense and Enhanced Reactions (if I didn't think he deserved the same change to invalidate the hit roll on both melee and range attacks). Hulk, not so much in this example. This isn't all there is to it. There are powers that decide the AI's positioning preferences and the movement powers, but you can read what they do. Positioning bonuses are listed in the Combat section of the Handbook. Go read.

The table below ought to be self explanatory. It's the chances for the number you have to roll above to hit. It doesn't get above 91.67, because Backfire is a thing that exists. And 12 of course still has that autohit double sixes so there's a puncher's chance so to speak.

Number To Roll Above	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12
Chance To Roll As Fraction	11/12	11/12	10/12	9/12	8/12	7/12	6/12	5/12	4/12	3/12	2/12	1/12
Percentage Chance to Roll	91.67	91.67	83.33	75	66.67	58.89	50	41.67	33.33	25	16.67	8.33

[Eternal Phoenix]

Regarding Danger Sense, Elusive, Enhanced Reactions, and Intangible. You can search the default DB for who has what power, but I'll save you a little time on that. It's the speedsters, time controllers, and precognitives who have large percentages chances of dodging despite the to hit roll succeeding. Everybody else tends to top out at succeeding with a roll of 5 or 6 at best. Specialist martial artist types (The Flashing Blade, for example) may have a higher chance in their specialty area. Which, yanno, makes sense. A master swordsman is gonna dodge outta the way a little more often than some half trained goober.

Regarding Camouflage In Melee/Range, Cloaked in Shadow, and Stealthy. Again, searched up who has these powers in the default DB and at what chance is your friend. Also again, most of those who have any of these don't have them at more than a roll of 5 or 6 not to be targeted at all. The ones who do have more tend not to have any of the above dodging powers, either, and likely have only one of these powers. Like Callous, who you may have met a time or two if you've been playing. He has Camouflage At Range, but clearly he's a ranged specialist, so you get the idea here..

For the record, a roll of 5 or 6 is out of 6 total, so it's a 33% chance of either the dice just not getting rolled or a successful roll being rendered irrelevant depending on the power involved. If you add 4 to the possible successes with one of these powers, that's a 50% chance of either event. So...be cautious to avoid your guys just swinging and whiffing all the time. I'm still dreading encountering Black Bullet or Endorphine, who have even higher chances to be whiffed initially.

Edited November 18, 2022 by Eternal Phoenix

[Frank2368]

8 hours ago, Eternal Phoenix said:

Number To Roll Above	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12
Chance To Roll As Fraction	11/12	11/12	10/12	9/12	8/12	7/12	6/12	5/12	4/12	3/12	2/12	1/12
Percentage Chance to Roll	91.67	91.67	83.33	75	66.67	58.89	50	41.67	33.33	25	16.67	8.33

These are not correct, you are rolling two dices, therefore the odds of getting each result is not equivalent. For example, in order to roll 1 or 12 in a 2d6, there is only one possibility respectively (1/6*1/6 or 1/36) but to roll 7 there's multiple possible combinations (1 + 6, 2+5, 3+4, 4+3, 5+2, 6+1 which is 6/36 or 1/6) so everything is weighted much more in the middle actually

[Eternal Phoenix]

1 hour ago, Frank2368 said:

These are not correct, you are rolling two dices, therefore the odds of getting each result is not equivalent. For example, in order to roll 1 or 12 in a 2d6, there is only one possibility respectively (1/6*1/6 or 1/36) but to roll 7 there's multiple possible combinations (1 + 6, 2+5, 3+4, 4+3, 5+2, 6+1 which is 6/36 or 1/6) so everything is weighted much more in the middle actually

First, thank you. I mean it. Second, I WAS AN ALGEBRA AND TRIG GUY PROBABILITY MAKES MY HEAD HURT. Sigh. 😅

[djthefunkchris]

14 hours ago, Eternal Phoenix said:

M&M Damage Bonus	CBU Attack Damage Amount
+1 to +4	1
+5 to +8	2
+9 to +12	3
+13 to +16	4
+17 to +20	5

 

I thought you had all the stats on the game (How many had 1 attack, 4 attack, etc. like you were talking about), I didn't realize you meant a conversion, which is probably cooler/harder. So I have to ask, since M&M stats are probably the lowest rpg game stats around outside of maybe original D&D; 1-18 or 18(00). Did you ever try doing anything using the original stats (I guess you'd have to add 5 to just about everything considering it starts at -5.. so if they are -3 it would by 2 for CBU. I did a brief one, and found that the extra HP they would get doesn't help as much as you would think, meaning although they might last an extra round or two, they don't win without special powers (that can't be outsmarted). I'm thinking about trying it as I'm feeling like the original game was meant to be closer in power between people, as 10 -15 is high super power but not necessarily cosmic power... although Mr. Infinity I think should be considered close (Perhaps Silver Surfer level or less). 

Making Hulk (when fully enraged) or Superman level characters, I think for their beginning stats being similar to Captain Awesome would work well, but after they know they are in a real fight, their stats should get bigger... for different reasons. Hulk because "Madder Hulk gets!" and Superman because "I rarely have the opportunity to let go"... and I consider both to be able to go toe to toe with cosmic powers, although both are much more grounded to earth (most of the time anyways).

Thanks for the conversion spreadsheets, very much appreciated.

 

[Eternal Phoenix]

57 minutes ago, djthefunkchris said:

I thought you had all the stats on the game (How many had 1 attack, 4 attack, etc. like you were talking about), I didn't realize you meant a conversion, which is probably cooler/harder. So I have to ask, since M&M stats are probably the lowest rpg game stats around outside of maybe original D&D; 1-18 or 18(00). Did you ever try doing anything using the original stats (I guess you'd have to add 5 to just about everything considering it starts at -5.. so if they are -3 it would by 2 for CBU. I did a brief one, and found that the extra HP they would get doesn't help as much as you would think, meaning although they might last an extra round or two, they don't win without special powers (that can't be outsmarted). I'm thinking about trying it as I'm feeling like the original game was meant to be closer in power between people, as 10 -15 is high super power but not necessarily cosmic power... although Mr. Infinity I think should be considered close (Perhaps Silver Surfer level or less). 

Making Hulk (when fully enraged) or Superman level characters, I think for their beginning stats being similar to Captain Awesome would work well, but after they know they are in a real fight, their stats should get bigger... for different reasons. Hulk because "Madder Hulk gets!" and Superman because "I rarely have the opportunity to let go"... and I consider both to be able to go toe to toe with cosmic powers, although both are much more grounded to earth (most of the time anyways).

Thanks for the conversion spreadsheets, very much appreciated.

 

Tradeoffs in M&M don't work like that. In my example Hulk would actually have about +5 Attack and Defense Bonus and about +15 Strength and Toughness Bonus. Hawkeye would have about +15 Attack and Defense Bonus and about +5 Ranged Damage and Toughness Bonus. Total opposites, which works great for an example. I'm benchmarking Prominent/5 Star characters as that game's Power Level 10 characters, because it's easier to just chop whatever PL my character is in half to get a starting point. Tradeoffs are...okay, so starting at the beginning. a Default PL 10 starter character has +10 Attack, Defense, Damage, and Toughness Bonus. All four the same, because what make a character in that system a certain power level is the total of the offensive (attack & damage) and defensive (defense and toughness) stats. Offense stats combined for a PL 10 needs to equal double that at 20, or they're not PL 10 offensively. Defense works the same way. Where the tradeoff part comes in is that characters are not required to have those stats be +10. One can be lowered to raise the other, which is what my hypothetical Hulk and Hawkeye are doing. Hulk has traded accuracy for strength and defense for toughness, while Hawkeye has done the opposite. It's a lovely system, really. If you're following so far, then you may be thinking that Minor Leaguers would be PL 6 and Renowneds would be PL 14, and guess what? You're right! The PL 6s, instead of being balanced like PL 10s are with +10s in each category, are balanced with +6s in each category. PL 14s are balanced with +14s in each category. Which is where those numbers in the tables come in for my conversions.  The mightier the character, the more likely they are to be redonkulously high in something and thus get a beefy converted skill or power.

If it helps, think of -5 as Very Low, -3 & 4 as Low, -2 to+2 as Average, +3 & +4 as High, and +5 as Very High. The other tables, well. As I said, you can count.

But dear god no, I don't have the free time to note down literally everyone's abiliies, skills, and powers. I have a full time job.  Though I think the tables still work as a broad understanding of what the default DB is trying to do. I didn't pull the relative comparisons out of my backside. I researched the dang thing to get the ranges and frequencies right. And you'd be surprised how much longer someone with 8 Health and Resistance to Bodily Damage 2 lasts compared with someone with 6 Health and Resistance to Bodily Damage 1 or 0. Unless you're setting Min Damage to be the same as the actual damage on all attacking powers, which would render any Resistance powers irrelevant.

 

[djthefunkchris]

LOL, I didn't mean all there individual powers, just the stats.. 20 with 3 DAMAGE, 10 WITH 4 etc. It looked like you had done that from your other post. Sorry for the confusion.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Oh god no. Those are the bonuses I'm using, not the actual stats. +1 is actually 12 (+1), +6 is 22 (+6), +10 is 30 (+10), etc. You've seen d20 ability scores before. M&M's got several quirks that tweak that around.

Iron Man doesn't have a Con Score in the sky somewhere, he's wearing protective armor, and his repulsors aren't him throwing stuff yanno?

Attack and defense bonuses are independent from Ability Scores in the version I use.

But that's mostly irrelevant to CBU.