Women’s Wrestling in the C-Verse

[Jericho4Ever12]

I know this has been discussed to death, but I don’t think we’ve ever been given a real answer as to why women are so underrepresented in the C-Verse. Playing a long term game as a women’s promotion is pretty much near impossible because of the lack of good, young women’s talent, or debuting women. 
 

I understand the C-Verse is Adams’s vision, but we’ve been clamoring for a women’s “revolution” of sorts inside of the C-verse for years, and once again they’ve been almost completely neglected. For as good as this game is, the disappointment in the lack of love women get is just another punch to the gut for us fans of women’s wrestling 

[Meta]

"Any way we can get a definitive answer as to why Adam seemingly hates women’s wrestling?"

I think this is a bit of a leap, I'd posit that updating the Cverse as a whole for this version feels a bit like more of an afterthought compared to other changes, which is of course disappointing, but here we are.

Being realistic, if this was a much more popular title/genre I'm sure there would have been a dedicated team on growing it out properly, and the game game itself would be in something like Unity rather than an access database with a custom frontend  - but it's not, therefore TEW is what it is.

Edited August 2 by Meta

[Blessed]

I've been incredibly critical of the frustrating lack of effort that goes into women's wrestling in the cverse, but this is not the way to go about it. Your concerns about long term games is valid, but suggesting he hates it is silly. I'm sure Adam does his best with the cverse to make it fun for everyone. 

[Mammoth]

I've edited the title of this topic to remove the unnecessary accusation. You can talk about women's wrestling within the C-Verse and you can express as much disappointment in it as you want, but attacks or accusations against anyone are not tolerated. Thank you. 

[Jericho4Ever12]

4 minutes ago, Mammoth said:

I've edited the title of this topic to remove the unnecessary accusation. You can talk about women's wrestling within the C-Verse and you can express as much disappointment in it as you want, but attacks or accusations against anyone are not tolerated. Thank you. 

It wasn’t an attack whatsoever. An accusation, perhaps yes. 
 

The definitive lack of any women’s wrestling updates within the C-Verse would lead anyone to believe Adam is not a fan of women’s wrestling.

 

Using the word “hate” was probably wrong on my part, but I stand by what I said

Edited August 2 by Jericho4Ever12

[elmiticomark]

I can't speak for the developers or where they intend to go, and no intent to be offensive here, but, to the point that some things were worked on before others for this release:

 

TEW's prior to 2020 were pretty darn Lilly White (she's a new character, she uses the greco-roman eye press as a finisher)... and that changed in 2020's release.  Quite honestly, I don't have the time to "clamor" or be a part of a collective "we", but I wanted to see that change, and it took some time to happen.  Though I'd definitely love to see a national or fully functional medium sized women's company and the infrastructure to back it up, for sure.  

[elmiticomark]

Just now, Jericho4Ever12 said:

It wasn’t an attack whatsoever. An accusation, perhaps yes. 
 

The definitive lack of any women’s wrestling within the C-Verse would lead anyone to believe Adam is not a fan of women’s wrestling.

 

Using the word “hate” was probably wrong on my part, but I stand by what I said

Making a presumptive statement about someone who has a public image, by name, of something that's not rooted in any proof... Chief, you can't just go around in society acting like that, and think that's how you talk to people and get things solved... But, I'ma sip my tea. 

[Jericho4Ever12]

2 minutes ago, elmiticomark said:

Making a presumptive statement about someone who has a public image, by name, of something that's not rooted in any proof... Chief, you can't just go around in society acting like that, and think that's how you talk to people and get things solved... But, I'ma sip my tea. 

It’s not presumptive if the proof is in the pudding. 
 

again, using the word hate was completely wrong on my part, but it’s not at all far fetched to believe he’s not a fan of women’s wrestling based on the lack of updates the women receive in each iteration of the game. 

Get off your high horse, it’s not that deep

[elmiticomark]

4 minutes ago, Jericho4Ever12 said:

It’s not presumptive if the proof is in the pudding. 
 

again, using the word hate was completely wrong on my part, but it’s not at all far fetched to believe he’s not a fan of women’s wrestling based on the lack of updates the women receive in each iteration of the game. 

Get off your high horse, it’s not that deep

Don't address me like you know me, I'm not your fwiend, pal.  You put a person, who created the games, name on something you perceive (that's not backed by proof) and pressed enter, publishing it.  

I know your mother and father probably didn't teach you what good sense is, chump.  But it's definitely not getting things fixed by crying with a full diaper. 

Edited August 2 by elmiticomark

[Jericho4Ever12]

1 minute ago, elmiticomark said:

Don't address me like you know me, I'm not your fwiend, pal.  You put a person, who created the games, name on something you perceive (that's not backed by proof) and pressed enter, publishing it.  

I know your mother and father probably didn't teach you what good sense is, chump.  But it's definitely not getting things fixed by crying with a full diaper. 

I’m not your guy, buddy. 
 

You cornball LMAO 

[Big Roguey]

Both of you knock it off. Use the forum’s ignore function if you don’t want to see each other’s posts. 

[alpha2117]

To me the C-Verse is a Bizarro World where the territory system never fell to the WWF Juggernaut.  No Global wrestling power ever came to dominate the landscape and in such a landscape none of the territories seems to have ever felt courageous enough to commit fully to Womens wrestling. Mexico and Japan also never quite had the wrestling booms they did in the real world whilst the weekly TV product in Canada, Australia and the British Isles continued because it wasn't replaced by WWE programming in the way it was in our world from the early 80's onward. In our world the WWE was so dominant that they felt emboldened to try to move on from the minimal Womens wrestling of previous eras to what we have now where the very top end Womens matches are capable to legit headline Wrestlemania.  That never happened in the C-verse and the logic is actually sound as even as recently as the Monday Night Wars era - Womens Wrestling was still very much an outlier.  Dont necessarily enjoy that aspect of the C-Verse but can see how what we get instead is a more balance territory style world.  The C-Verse has exactly 1 trans worker - heck the 3rd biggest US company features more than 1 fairly regularly which again reflects that the C-Verse is stuck in that more insular territory style world.  To me theres no reason in what is a fantasy version of the world for it not to have more diversity but I can actually understand that if the WWF hadn't succeeded with Wrestlemania 1 that our world may well not be all that different to the C-Verse.        

[DarK_RaideR]

1 hour ago, Meta said:

updating the Cverse as a whole for this version feels a bit like more of an afterthought compared to other changes

This has been my impression as well. I've stated elsewhere that how much change is "too much" or "too little" is subjective, thus there will never be an objectively sweet spot for any new version to hit, nor will we ever be able to all agree how far off the mark the end result was.

That said, the more reactions I read about the evolution of the CVerse or specifically about Women's Wrestling in it, the more my reaction tends to be "fix it yourself then". This is a highly moddable game and I'm not saying people should have to make their own female wrestlers and promotions in the editor, however there have always been mods, some specifically designed to address this gap in the world, that people can import characters from. Or just set an all female promotion in the database from "Yet to Open" into "Active"  (and if there isn't one, just make one in the editor, it's not that hard or time consuming), maybe set the AI to auto-balance/populate regions and see what happens. Or, you know, just set up a women's promotion and run it yourself.

Seriously, this game isn't about "what's happened so far". It's about "let's see what happens from here".

[Strech]

Maybe Grey dogs are waiting for the game to be programmed in a different software, to make a giant leap forward with the cverse

 

(Speculation only, I have no contacts)

Edited August 2 by Strech

[Doctor Crunch]

I don't love the original framing of this thread, but I do wish we had more options for women in IX. To Dark_Raider's point, it's very difficult to start your own fed without making extensive use of the editor or Mods. There is, I think, 1 unemployed women in all of Europe?

It makes the play experience of managing a women's fed or even just a fed that includes women less interesting and immersive.

Now, Adam doesn't owe me anything and I love this year's game, but it is rough out there.

[Chikbot]

I think it's really just an aspect that Adam doesn't have an interest in exploring. Case and point, I'm a deathmatch fan, how do you think I feel about it's representation in the C-Verse? As soon as WEXXV shut down, there's really zero representation (PSW is closer to an ECW than a proper DM company) yet I'm not here demanding a deathmatch explosion like what has happened irl. 

Then again. A lot of these issues are solved with mods. I just think if we're going to start trying to cancel Adam for being sexist or something, we should stop, think, and do what we want for ourselves. 

Sometimes things don't have to always fully appeal to you. Sorry. 

[Blessed]

5 minutes ago, Chikbot said:

I think it's really just an aspect that Adam doesn't have an interest in exploring. Case and point, I'm a deathmatch fan, how do you think I feel about it's representation in the C-Verse? As soon as WEXXV shut down, there's really zero representation (PSW is closer to an ECW than a proper DM company) yet I'm not here demanding a deathmatch explosion like what has happened irl. 

Then again. A lot of these issues are solved with mods. I just think if we're going to start trying to cancel Adam for being sexist or something, we should stop, think, and do what we want for ourselves. 

Sometimes things don't have to always fully appeal to you. Sorry. 

I take your point and certainly don't think cancelling someone who provides us so much joy is what a rational person wants. 

 

But comparing the ridiculous under-representation of women to a certain style of wrestling doesn't make sense to me. Nor do I think asking for women to actually get some effort in the production of the cverse is asking too much. 

 

I think what we're seeing here is the result of frustration stemming over 3 games worth of TEW not keeping up with the times. 

 

Again take your point and not trying to be hostile. 

[Chikbot]

Just now, Blessed said:

I take your point and certainly don't think cancelling someone who provides us so much joy is what a rational person wants. 

 

But comparing the ridiculous under-representation of women to a certain style of wrestling doesn't make sense to me. Nor do I think asking for women to actually get some effort in the production of the cverse is asking too much. 

 

I think what we're seeing here is the result of frustration stemming over 3 games worth of TEW not keeping up with the times. 

 

Again take your point and not trying to be hostile. 

See, don't get me wrong, I do agree.

I just don't see the point when plenty of mods have essentially solved this problem (Willrock's Women's Revolution mod and the Alt CVerse 2020/2022 mod which has said previous mod integrated in).

TEW is inherently a sandbox and truthfully, the C-Verse, while coming with the product, should not be the main focus (at least I think that's how Adam sees it and why it remains underdeveloped). The reason why the c-verse grew as much as it did in the early years was because there wasn't as much of a modding scene as there is now so the C-Verse had to be palatable.
It's just a different world out there now than it was a decade or so ago, for both the argument for women's wrestling and the argument for why the C-Verse doesn't get much attention as a whole.

I brought up Deathmatch representation because the women's wrestling thing is the tip of the iceberg. The C-Verse as a whole is stagnant and flavorless.

[Blessed]

6 minutes ago, Chikbot said:

See, don't get me wrong, I do agree.

I just don't see the point when plenty of mods have essentially solved this problem (Willrock's Women's Revolution mod and the Alt CVerse 2020/2022 mod which has said previous mod integrated in).

TEW is inherently a sandbox and truthfully, the C-Verse, while coming with the product, should not be the main focus (at least I think that's how Adam sees it and why it remains underdeveloped). The reason why the c-verse grew as much as it did in the early years was because there wasn't as much of a modding scene as there is now so the C-Verse had to be palatable.
It's just a different world out there now than it was a decade or so ago, for both the argument for women's wrestling and the argument for why the C-Verse doesn't get much attention as a whole.

I brought up Deathmatch representation because the women's wrestling thing is the tip of the iceberg. The C-Verse as a whole is stagnant and flavorless.

You're absolutely not wrong mate, some people have made some fantastic strides to make it more inclusive for women's wrestling. It'd just be nice to see Adam and the team make strides to improve it in the base game. 

[ShikariFC]

In terms of companies is it really that poorly represented? IRL outside of Japan how many womens only companies are there? I can think of one, EVE in London that in TEW terms would be insignificant, tiny at a push. Is shimmer still going in America? 

I dont have the new game but I understand the free agent pool is lacking across the board? 

Should the c-verse have to rely so much on modding? probably not - but Willr0cks Women's Revolution mod was, in my opinion, completely game changing and I'm sure there will be similar fantastic mods out there again.

[Chikbot]

1 minute ago, ShikariFC said:

In terms of companies is it really that poorly represented? IRL outside of Japan how many womens only companies are there? I can think of one, EVE in London that in TEW terms would be insignificant, tiny at a push. Is shimmer still going in America? 

I dont have the new game but I understand the free agent pool is lacking across the board? 

Should the c-verse have to rely so much on modding? probably not - but Willr0cks Women's Revolution mod was, in my opinion, completely game changing and I'm sure there will be similar fantastic mods out there again.

Free Agency is lacking drastically and the future workers don't make it much brighter. Plus, the oldest active wrestler in game is 48 and the youngest someone can die of natural causes is 65.

[Teasenitryn]

7 minutes ago, ShikariFC said:

In terms of companies is it really that poorly represented? IRL outside of Japan how many womens only companies are there? I can think of one, EVE in London that in TEW terms would be insignificant, tiny at a push. Is shimmer still going in America? 

I dont have the new game but I understand the free agent pool is lacking across the board? 

Should the c-verse have to rely so much on modding? probably not - but Willr0cks Women's Revolution mod was, in my opinion, completely game changing and I'm sure there will be similar fantastic mods out there again.

I think the problem comes in that if you want to do something about that without mods it's next to impossible. I tried to phoenix AAA in 2020 and I couldn't do it in the original data without raiding QAW at which point I might as well play QAW.

I would absolutely agree with there are not many feds specifically for women in real world wrestling but there is an indy scene and there are women to fill it whether they go against each other or fight intergender matches, there is also representation of varying degrees in WWE, AEW and TNA (TNA has even had a female wrestler hold the male world title though they got burned with their choice to put that on). At the same time I also know there will be some fantastic mods out there and while there is a whole other debate on should it be down to modders to fill that gap the game is a huge leap forward on the last one and there is a lot of fun to be had in it.

[JrSquared]

I do agree overall point of the lack of additions to women's wrestling. Considering a woman is president in the game (Leslie Knope FTW)! 

I do think in cannon TCW Or SWF creating women's division makes sense, but with CWA being apart of the Big 3 now it wasnt as needed. I will point out that unlike 2020 new workers generated by Dojos seems to be serviceable so could create a whole new dynamic. I do agree with the stagnant position of Cverse there should be more radical changes game to game to create new scenarios for us the players to play in. I disagreed on the 2 year change as people "didnt like" the 4 year change from 16 to 20, and it seems like a step backwards. 

[Matt_Black]

1 hour ago, ShikariFC said:

In terms of companies is it really that poorly represented? IRL outside of Japan how many womens only companies are there? I can think of one, EVE in London that in TEW terms would be insignificant, tiny at a push. Is shimmer still going in America? 

[URL=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_women's_wrestling_promotions]Here ya go.[/URL]

[GrindhouseArts]

2 hours ago, Chikbot said:

I think it's really just an aspect that Adam doesn't have an interest in exploring. Case and point, I'm a deathmatch fan, how do you think I feel about it's representation in the C-Verse? As soon as WEXXV shut down, there's really zero representation (PSW is closer to an ECW than a proper DM company) yet I'm not here demanding a deathmatch explosion like what has happened irl.

Personally I'd be fine if hardcore wasn't literally called 'Garbage' in the game. Can't even fix that with mods because it's hard-coded. That's like opening a book store with the sections Thriller, Fantasy, Horror, Science Fiction, Cringy Chick Lit just because you can't stand a comercially successful genre; Romance, and want your customers to know you disapprove of their taste.

I can definitely see how fans of other wrestling genres feel unappreciated if their Thing [tm] is treated like the red-haired stepchild. It's an especially valid complaint of your Thing [tm] is barely even playable in the default database. It doesn't cost a thing/much time to create at least enough workers to make a new company viable. 'Womens Wrestling - Entire Company' is a setting, after all. Why should players have to put in extra work to use it?

I personally have no interest in womens wrestling or the CVerse, so maybe I don't understand the nuances of the default database. But as it is, I'm not buying the reasoning that 'wrestling history is different in the CVerse and that's why womens wrestling is an afterthought'. Wrestling may be stuck in the territory days, but is the rest of the world also still living in the past?

Edited August 2 by GrindhouseArts