loyalty (questions/discussion)

[Lukiep8]

[quote]I don't know if Japan is that way or not,[/quote] Very rarely. The only ones I could see, is that the New Japan/NOAH wrestlers (basically the ones from the 2 big promotions) won't work the smaller independant promotions, even if they freelance. That is why I hold so much respect for Kensuke Sasaki, as after he left World Japan, he said he would freelance, AND BOY DID HE FREELANCE. He didn't care what the promotion was, he freelanced in it. The other one is Garbage promotions. Big Japan, FMW etc. are, or were, seen in other Japanese promotions as being 'garbage wrestling (which is what the term is anyway)' and thus, the wrestlers weren't respected (such is the case with Onita, and why he couldn't get in the bigger promotions, and why Honma was the job boy in AJPW, even though he was incredibly talented).

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=djlightning;140412]I'm not so sure if that is Loyalty with Rhino and 3D. I would say it's more of a won't work for promotion X. Which by the way is that a possiblility to add into the game Mr. Ryland? I don't know if Japan is that way or not, but I do not there are certain wrestlers who won't work for a specific promotion for one reason or other. I think that would be cool to have right along the lines of these loyalties.[/QUOTE] I don't think that is correct, I don't think anyone has a beef with a specific promotion. I think they have a problem with a specific owner, which is already covered by the relationships in the game.

[weirdo_man]

Yeah, uh, to go back with what Anubis has been saying about America changing, that's not going to happen. Right now in American culture, money drives everything. Most people don't give a **** about anyone other than A-number-one, and even the death of Vince McMahon isn't going to change that, actually, it would probably make it worse in the wrestling industry. Very few workers become loyal to prmotions for any reason other than that they've been taken from nothing to a huge star, and even then if someone offers them more money they're going to *usually* accept the offer. I don't see how you could think that all, or even a small portion of American workers, would work under the same loyalty system as the Japanese. This is paralleled in the blue collar world of both countries. Factory workers in America, for the most part, don't care about the company that they work for, they care about the money that they get paid, and they try to cut as many corners as possible. However, in Japan, workers take pride in their product, and if they do a poor job, it brings shame on them, even if their supervisor is also to blame. They strive to break quotas and to improve the production numbers and value of their company. So, to say that the society in America is going to be any different from blue collar to wrestling, would be as ridiculous as saying that the society of Japan is going to be different from their blue collar to their wrestling. I dont' know if you can see what we're all trying to say Anubis, but in America, the almighty dollar is.. well, almighty.

[kettley]

The plain simple truth is that in Pro-Wrestling in North America you can never say never and because of this loyalty is little more than a transient notion.

[AlaskanHero]

I think what people are confusing what loyalty is. If you want to apply Loyalty to someone in the US, ask yourself "who loves the promotion they're in more than money?". Shawn Michaels wasn't loyal to WWE, he threatened to jump to WCW several times to get his way. Undertaker sent out feelers to WCW and the only reason he didn't jump is because he couldn't take the gimmick with him. Bryan Danielson isn't as loyal to ROH as some of you may think, he doesn't go to TNA or WWE because he knows he wouldn't be able to wrestle the way he likes. He wouldn't get the chance to have any more 70 minute matches with anyone he wants. Hell, even AJ Styles doesn't have the loyalty we're talking about since he didn't go to WWE not because he prefered TNA or Wildside over WWE, but because he didn't want to uproot his family and move, not to mention the schedule. The only guy I can think who has the kind of Loyalty Lukie and Adam are talking about is Tommy Dreamer who turned down big money offers from WCW, to stay in ECW, going without pay in ECW's last years and sticking around, despite the fact that he probably could've been signed by (then) WWF or even the dying WCW. He stayed because ECW was his home and he wanted to see it succeed. That's loyalty. At least I hope that's close to the loyalty Adam and Lukie had in mind.

[dcxbox]

so what about say a terry funk, stan hanson, bruiser brody, dr death steve williams, abdullah the butcher take abdullah the butcher for example. hes never been long term anywhere in his 50+ year ring career he has been loyal to certain promotions in puertorico and japan, but prefered to never stay in one place to long, because he could draw big by making every appearence speciel. dr death steve williams loyal to ajpw in america was loyal to the midsouth/uwf til turner bought it. because he was close to cow boy bill watts. he did some freelance in the states. he made a rare usa appearence in ecw for a few matches. he worked a bit for the wwe but not anything longterm but he left to go to wcw, but left wcw because of his loyality to ajpw and due to wcws partnership with njpw same with hanson as dr death funks very much a freelancer always has been, but was loyal to ecw, he loved the underdog, and really wanted to help the young talent in the promotion get over and make money, at the same time he can make money, but funk has a wrestling passion which should be a game state but very rare funks going to die in the ring i feel, he wrestles every match as if its his last, hes retired many times to only come back in a matter of wwees or months. his body is broken but he still gives it his all and then some. he worked the wwe ecw ppv. he got paid well for it, but also wanted to help get this ecw over that one night so the other guys would have jobs making big money. he was offered big last year but turned it down, because he didnt wanna do a watered down product, and last year ecw one night stand was just to be one night only, so funk worked with real pure ecw only show hardcore homecoming instead for much less money. a loyality stat should be allowed in a limited fasion for non japan workers maybe only a mnaual stat and so we could use in mods like dott edit* one more recent example , the sandman hes made millions in construction with his own company after ecw. he doesnt have to wrestle, he said he will only work with people he likes, and named paul heyman and tod gordon as the only promoters/bookers he will work with

[Jacko00]

What about Low Ki? He works in NOAH and ROH and TNA, is he freelance?

[Snabbit888]

Back in 2005, Danielson took about a month off after saying he was frustrated with the wrestling business. Why was he frustrated, you ask? Because WWE wasn't giving him a contract. Now if that doesn't scream loyalty to ROH, I don't know what does. And I'm sure he really enjoys ROH. But if WWE wanted him, which they have showed many times that they don't at this point, he would jump at it, I'm sure.

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=Jacko00;140451]What about Low Ki? He works in NOAH and ROH and TNA, is he freelance?[/QUOTE] No. Freelance is a state of mind, where you don't tie yourself down to a specific promotion for any great length of time, and you're essentially hiring yourself out. Clearly Low Ki doesn't satisfy this criteria, as he is with TNA long term. Freelance is not the same as "working for a bunch of different feds" otherwise virtually every US independent worker would be freelance!

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=dcxbox;140447]edit* one more recent example , the sandman hes made millions in construction with his own company after ecw. he doesnt have to wrestle, he said he will only work with people he likes, and named paul heyman and tod gordon as the only promoters/bookers he will work with[/QUOTE] This would have absolutely nothing to do with the Loyalty feature, it would be a relationship between Sandman and Heyman\Gordon. I really suggest you go back and read through the thread again, you seem to be totally confusing the literal meaning of the word loyalty with what this feature is actually about.

[Anubis]

[QUOTE=Snabbit888;140461]Back in 2005, Danielson took about a month off after saying he was frustrated with the wrestling business. Why was he frustrated, you ask? Because WWE wasn't giving him a contract.[/QUOTE] I would argue that point. I haven't seen anything saying he was frustrated because WWE wasn't interested in him. If anything, he was frustrated because America isn't changing quite as fast as he'd like, and I believe he and I think alike as far as thinking change is going to happen. Still, I know it's not gonna happen overnight, and I think he expected things to happen faster. Unless there's something somewhere specifically stating that WWE not giving him a contract was what frustrated him . . . I don't see anything like that out there, though. Tommy Dreamer, however, is the absolute best example of a worker with loyalty. I still don't think it's unrealistic to turn it on in America, unless loyalty relationships develop really quickly and often. Only Mr. Ryland can answer that one, though (as to how fast it happens).

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=Anubis;140493]Tommy Dreamer, however, is the absolute best example of a worker with loyalty.[/QUOTE] Again, if you actually take a close look at the situation then things aren't quite that clear cut. Dreamer was making quite a lot of money with ECW (as proved by how much he was owed, which was publically released) and had massive creative powers. Had he left for WCW or WWF he wouldn't have been making a great deal more as he's doubtful to have been pushed as anything more than a opening level wrestler, and would have lost the chance to be writing and producing a wrestling product. So yes, he would have made more money (slightly), but he's also giving up a heck of a lot of stuff too. So once again, as with every other example given so far, let's not get too carried away with how supposedly noble and loyal wrestlers are. In every example given, the supposedly loyal wrestler has not exactly been in a weak position to begin with. Loyalty ain't that hard to achieve when you're not giving up a great deal. And that's coming from one of Dreamer's biggest fans.

[NickC13573]

WHAT ABOUT DAWN MARIE? ECW people DID jump to ECW becuz of money, but not ALL. What about New Jack? Spike Dudley? Mustafa (Im not sure, i think so)

[Akki]

I believe that New Jack didn't get any offers. He was too violent. I think Spike jumped at the very end when he realized he wouldn't be getting paid. Not sure about Mustafa or Dawn Marie, though.

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=NickC13573;140505]WHAT ABOUT DAWN MARIE? ECW people DID jump to ECW becuz of money, but not ALL. What about New Jack? Spike Dudley? Mustafa (Im not sure, i think so)[/QUOTE] I'm speculating here, but I'm guessing they didn't jump because the WWE didn't bother offering them contracts. It's not really loyalty if you're turning down offers that don't actually exist... Unless of course you have secret information to suggest that Vince's biggest regret in life was not signing Mustafa.

[kettley]

[QUOTE=Anubis;140493]I would argue that point. I haven't seen anything saying he was frustrated because WWE wasn't interested in him. If anything, he was frustrated because America isn't changing quite as fast as he'd like, and I believe he and I think alike as far as thinking change is going to happen. [/QUOTE]Obviously it's going back a while so I don't remember for sure but in the Wrestling Obserer Newsletter - Dave Meltzer alluded to the fact that Danielson was frustrated that his talents were not been noted by the big leagues.

[dcxbox]

[QUOTE=Adam Ryland;140524]I'm speculating here, but I'm guessing they didn't jump because the WWE didn't bother offering them contracts. It's not really loyalty if you're turning down offers that don't actually exist... Unless of course you have secret information to suggest that Vince's biggest regret in life was not signing Mustafa.[/QUOTE] wouldn't he not sign new jack, because he feels new jacks to much of a risk to his higher paid talent

[Lukiep8]

Let me put another proposal of what loyalty is to some American wrestlers. Both Hulk Hogan, and Chris Benoit see New Japan Pro-Wrestling as their 'home' because that is where they both got their first big starts. But why aren't they both in New Japan... because WWE pays them well and they want to wrestle in America :D

[thedraem41]

Actually Lukie, there's been a lot of rumors for awhile that Benoit is really upset with the direction of the WWE. I don't think money has a lot to do with him.. Hogan, yeah he's not in it for the love of the sport, he just wants a check.

[weirdo_man]

Lukie didn't say that Benoit is loyal to WWE. He just said that he wrestles for WWE because he gets paid a lot. And, of course he has problems with WWE, as probably almost every wrestler does, most of them just don't make them public because they get paid so well.

[The Jobber]

[QUOTE=thedraem41;140625]Actually Lukie, there's been a lot of rumors for awhile that Benoit is really upset with the direction of the WWE. I don't think money has a lot to do with him.. Hogan, yeah he's not in it for the love of the sport, he just wants a check.[/QUOTE] Benoit's contract was coming up and as you said he was unhappy with the WWE and his push, they offered him a big contract and guess what, he signed it. And I don't blame him, it is a buissness and most wrestlers don't make much money, you gotta make what you can while you can.

[AlaskanHero]

Hey Adam, how much was Tommy Dreamer making in ECW? I'm curious because I never saw the public records of how much he was owed. I don't doubt he made good money in ECW, but I think he would've made a great deal more in WCW, considering they handed out 6-figure contracts like tic tacs. I don't think he would've gotten that kind of money from Heyman. Then again, Heyman's not very good when it comes to budgeting, so who knows? Maybe Dreamer was getting WCW money in ECW.

[Hawk1665]

Comparing loyalty in the US to loyalty in Japan is almost night and day. For one, if a worker is loyal to a promotion in the US, nine times out of ten it's to the current booker. Dreamer was loyal to Heyman, do you really think that if someone had taken over ECW in 1999, Dreamer woulda stayed? In Japan, it doesn't matter who the head booker is, because the loyalty is to the *PROMOTION*. A great current example is New Japan Pro-Wrestling. They've went through bunches of headbookers/managers/owners/whatever you want to call them in the last few years, but outside of a few guys the roster has stayed remarkably stable. Some people left, most didn't, and while New Japan does pay well it's not simply that. It's how New Japan brings people up through the system, they litterally have "NEW JAPAN IS #1!" beaten into them until staying with New Japan is the only thing that really makes sense to most of them. Yuji Nagata could be a main eventer for any promotion in Japan. He could hold ANY title in Japan...but he stays with New Japan despite the horrible pushes due to the fact that he's loyal, and he considers himself a New Japan trueborn, and that is where he wants to end his career, exactly where it started. You just cannot compare the two. Loyalty to the promotion may exist in the US, but it is EXTREMLY rare.

[Akki]

Personally, I don't think it's the culture that prevents people from being loyal here and them being loyal in Japan. I think it's the state of the wrestling business. From what I can gauge in Japan, a wrestling fan there will know about just about every promotion in the country. Therefore, it's not a thing about more exposure, especially for the promotions you mentioned. Here, you can get your first work in a promotion like APW and few outside of those who follow the promotion will have heard of it, much less you. That is, until you start getting up to RoH (still very few), TNA (more but still little), and WWE. I think it's less about the money here than about the exposure.

[dcxbox]

[QUOTE=The Franchise;140631]Hey Adam, how much was Tommy Dreamer making in ECW? I'm curious because I never saw the public records of how much he was owed. I don't doubt he made good money in ECW, but I think he would've made a great deal more in WCW, considering they handed out 6-figure contracts like tic tacs. I don't think he would've gotten that kind of money from Heyman. Then again, Heyman's not very good when it comes to budgeting, so who knows? Maybe Dreamer was getting WCW money in ECW.[/QUOTE] The company was listed as having assets totaling $1,385,500. Included in that number was $860,000 in accounts receivable owed the company by iN DEMAND Network (PPV), Acclaim (video games), and Original San Francisco Toy Company (action figures). The balance of the assets were the video tape library ($500,000), a 1998 Ford Truck ($19,500) and the remaining inventory of merchandise ($4,000). The liabilities of the company totaled $8,881,435.17. The bankruptcy filing included hundreds of claims, including production companies, buildings ECW ran in, TV stations ECW was televised on, travel agencies, phone companies, attorney's fees, wrestlers, and other talent. Wrestlers and talent were listed, with amounts owed ranging from $0 for Sabu and Steve Corino to hundreds, and in some cases, thousands of dollars. The highest amounts owed to talents were Rob Van Dam ($150,000), Tommy Dreamer ($100,000), Joey Styles ($50,480), Shane Douglas ($48,000), and Francine ($47,275).