Tha Black Phenom

I feel like divas having 7-8 minute matches would only emphasize their weaknesses... management are putting restrictions on divas' bouts for a reason. This wouldn't apply to the divas who are actually good, but yet they're mostly the ones who get snubbed in favor of the beauties of the season. Quoted for truth.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Killagy" data-cite="Killagy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I really gotta say that I haven't really found anything much from the women's division to get worked up positive lately, but whenever I do it always seems to be AJ-related. Hell of a promo she did last night, and the crowd seemed to completely forget her heel status and started chanting her name! Who wouldn't though, everything she said concerning "reality-tv shows" goes right along with the general opinion of the average joe. I admit, I do find "Total Divas" interesting at times as it gives us a glimpse at a side of the female performers we don't normally see, but it's hard to shake away from the negative and trashy stigma almost all "reality-tv shows" have these days. I personally hope it gets scrapped eventually, it's no where near trashy-status yet, but looking at the track record of other shows I say it's only a matter of time. Not that it'd hurt the WWE's reputation much, but the Divas' involved would have a lot to lose if something were to go awry.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> AJ's "pipebomb" was pretty cool.</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Arrows" data-cite="Arrows" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>They can't fire EVERYONE. There'd be no show. If EVERYONE walked to that ring, they'd be left with: Trips, Orton, Axel, Brock, Heyman, Cena, Bryan, Punk, and The SHIELD. What exactly are they gonna do?<p> </p><p> They also can't punish EVERYONE, the SHIELD isn't that tough.</p><p> </p><p> All they have to do is decide to fight, and they win.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> While that logic rings true, there's the fact Triple H could still collectively make each of their lives within the WWE a living hell, if they choose to defy his wishes. Even if they revolt en masse, he doesn't have to fire them, there could be ways to punish them all, one by one. And having The Shield on his corner emphasizes just that.</p><p> </p><p> Given with the numerous past storylines others mentioned, even looking at it kayfabe-wise, WWE superstars won't waste their whole time having each other's backs. They gotta spend their time climbing the ladder. WWE is a jungle in that respect, that as a superstar, in the end you have to fend for yourself.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="djthefunkchris" data-cite="djthefunkchris" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> My only thought about this story line was, you know what... This isn't a Randy Orton vs Daniel Bryan Feud. This is a Daniel Bryan vs Triple H feud, with Triple H having pawns in The Shield and Randy Orton (or "tool"). Guess they aren't as confident in Randy as I thought they were.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> They are confident in him, it's just that doing it in a Bryan vs. HHH manner elevates Bryan that much more on the top star platform. Having the underdog babyface chase the title AND confront the power-hungry authority, that's where the real money's at.</p>

<p>Indeed, Shield weren't gonna stay the way they were forever. They have to find things for them to do, and this was solid, they pulled double duty on Raw and may serve as potential henchmen for this corportation-like setting. This is nothing but good for them as they would've probably fell into irrelevance eventually anyway(I predict they'll all lose their titles at NOC).</p><p> </p><p> When you think about it, if they were completely going by their gimmick, they would've logically turned face by now. Or tweener-rogue. Because Trips has the whole locker-room on notice right now.</p><p> </p><p> Things feel good with HHH as heel again. RVD and Bryan chasing the World titles, should make for great TV.</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="OctoberRaven" data-cite="OctoberRaven" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> Totally silly. <img alt=":rolleyes:" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/rolleyes.png.4b097f4fbbe99ce5bcd5efbc1b773ed6.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Well a basketball gif & featuring an unintentional smash... I'll stand by what I said <img alt=":p" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/tongue.png.ceb643b2956793497cef30b0e944be28.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /> not saying it couldn't hurt, it just doesn't correlate to anything eye-catching on WWE TV.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="bigtplaystew" data-cite="bigtplaystew" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I don't see any reason why Barrett can't get a main event push. On what basis do you say he'll never get a belt?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I also don't think his time is up, but it's doubtful he'll ever get anywhere this year with all the other hot prospects. I hope he brings back the Barrett Barrage or something, that had solid potential but it looks like they gave up on the idea and paired him against Orton.</p>

I knew his time would soon be up as soon as he switched his finisher to a silly elbow smash. It honestly makes me yearn for the Wasteland back and that's saying something. You need to be seriously credible overness-wise to adopt a ridiculous "finisher", not to mention a man twice his size, Big Show, has that covered(although it's a right hand but still).

<p>I think it mostly comes down to the factor of overexposure. If Cena kept the same character but was exposed five times less, say if he was out of the title picture for a considerable amount of time, helping groom and push younger superstars like most veterans do(of course, we'd have to slightly disregard in this scenario the amount of merch and popularity he garners), he would be much more tolerable.</p><p> </p><p> When Cena came back to Royal Rumble 2008, everybody poo'd their pants. It was unexpected, out of the blue, one of those genuine moments that haven't been ruined by stupid dirtsheets; everyone went in a frenzy. For the next 20 minutes, everybody forgot how annoying John Cena was. It was slightly easier to do that at that point, he had been out for 4 months after all. He got into the ring under a raucous crowd and cleaned house. Even the hardcore Cena haters had to admit that was a good show.</p><p> </p><p> He's been the man for much more than five years, his ~400ish day-long title reign started in 2006. When people say they really dislike Cena, if it remotely shows that they dislike the person over the character I'd assume that it has less to do with the person John Cena, and more with the overexposure that he's been bestowed. People assume that he'd get the same amount of exposure with a different gimmick. And there's a good chance he would, he is superbly charismatic and does have an innate ability to control the crowd. But my point is some people just wanna see Cena go away. They've done literally everything with him BUT turn him heel. They had him feud with GMs and other authority. They had the entire Raw roster against him at certain points. They pulled a Montreal Screwjob variant on him. They had him trade spats with Vince, even had Vince go over him almost exactly three years ago.</p><p> </p><p> I dislike Cena's character for the same reasons as most do, but I'll always respect him for his work ethic and what he does outside the ropes. I also appreciate how he's started to sound more passionate in his promos this year instead of throwing out bad cookie-cutter jokes, but he still talks about more of the same stuff. I just believe people don't exactly mean "there is no way I could like Cena", it's simply a case of the unknown. Nobody knows how he would come across today under a different gimmick and/or as a heel, but the one certainty most fans hold in their minds is that he would be subject to the same amount of TV time, within reason.</p>

<p>It was a spectacular bout, no doubt. Cesaro has made me a believer yet again. Funny enough, Ryback on the other hand apparently got told backstage for failed protection on Bryan regarding the table spot, I think. </p><p> </p><p> Raw did drag in the middle, but Punk's segment delivered yet again. Was refreshing to see a babyface cut a promo about not backing down and not quitting without making it all.. Cena-like. Though Cena shows intensity in certain promos too but sparingly.</p><p> </p><p> <span>http://i.imgur.com/m3Rnhdp.gif</span></p>

No need, it's not like that was a spoiler.. the thing is with those dirtsheets is, they could be legit. But even that doesn't matter as plans simply change all the time. That plan could've been a hot prospect one day and then they decide to scrap it the day after. That's why I think looking upon dirtsheets of MITB/world title/heel & face turn plans are futile, even if they go through with it they'll change a little something midway to switch it up. That said, I hope Sandow keeps the briefcase and runs all the way to the top with it.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="crownsy" data-cite="crownsy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>yea, I just think it was a lazy turn man. It's what they do now "This guys a face now, no story needed!"<p> </p><p> compare what there doing with Punk to the flash turns they've done with Del Rio, cody and ziggler.</p><p> </p><p> I'd give those turns a C- in TEW terms.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> In a way I also look at is, bringing back to my post before that one, babyfaces not actually looking the greatest in their motives. Flash turns, exactly. They could be salvageable. Just like with Cody now, we've had heels turn faces under questionable logic before, within angles that make you go "do you really have a leg to stand on to be exacting revenge?" because as you said, MITB was every man for himself. Yeah on that basis Cody shouldn't have been that vindictive. So possibly the reason for the turn is quite simply an emotional reaction of him being butthurt about losing the match and taking it out on his now former partner.</p><p> </p><p> Which to me, if Cody works under the sour puss angle and turns into this aggressive babyface(he has quite the raging fits in his mannerisms) it may still make for interesting TV and would certainly be different from the days when faces were holding doors for divas, hugging fans and proclaiming the "never say die, do it all for the fans" attitude when coerced against an opponent. I'm not expecting some badass outlaw persona here either, but.. eh I'll just wait and see.</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="crownsy" data-cite="crownsy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>With you here. And I'll take it a step further, Cody's turn also makes no sense because it was an every man for himself brawl.<p> </p><p> What was sandow supposed to do? Clap and wave at him? Not sure why it's a face maneuver to get outworked by another guy in a winner take all match, regardless of the fact he's your tag team partner.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Did you notice during Sandow and Rhodes' entrance at MITB that Sandow yanked the mic off of Cody's hands?</p><p> </p><p> Foreshadowing. I'd allow it.</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Stennick" data-cite="Stennick" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>What do you mean by "darker" babyfaces? What exactly is Cody Rhodes character? Or heck Dolph Ziggler's for that matter. I'm still a bit confused if he's officially a babyface or not or when his turn might have been other than dumping AJ the other night. <p> </p><p> Also isn't CM Punk the "anti" Cena or heck even Daniel Bryan at this point? Punk is the anti Cena in the sense that he doesn't tow the company line, he says whatever he wants, whenever he wants. As opposed to Cena kissing babies and smiling while tapping out. (I slighted Cena cue SM82 coming in here to agree that he's the worst thing in the world and petitioning us to tie him up and burn his house down with him in it). </p><p> </p><p> I would say Punk is for sure the dark, anti Cena but I haven't seen ANYTHING ever from Cody Rhodes or Dolph Ziggler from a character stand point that made me say "take my money I want to see this guy fight". Ziggler is a good worker, I wouldn't say great but he's a good worker better than most on the roster but I've never seen him cut a single promo like Punk, like Cena, like even Daniel Bryan that made me say "yes take my money I need to see him do what he just said he was going to do". </p><p> </p><p> I also don't think anyone but Ziggler can be blamed for that. He's been pushed rather heavily despite recent complaints the guy has been a focal point of one show or another for years now and has been fairly well promoted and protected outside of his losing streak before winning the WHC. I've just never seen him cut that promo that made me say "oh man this guy is going to do something awesome at the ppv and I don't wanna miss it".</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> </p><p> Because here's the thing... there was a time in the WWE where most babyfaces were Cena-clones.</p><p> </p><p> So yes, "dark" babyfaces is a disproportional term applied to this issue but at the same time it makes sense. Because it used to be much worse. At a certain time, Cena's character was the trailblazer for most babyfaces on the roster at the time, representing sort of a gradual spiral into the PG movement. I remember Matt Hardy, Rey Mysterio and many others catering to this fighting spirit, good guy soldier mentality. Of course, that did not apply for all of them, and there were shades of differences pertaining to the character and as to why it'd make sense(Rey is typecast as the underdog) but in general, the state of babyfaceland was much worse than it is today. To put it another way, it wasn't just Cena who started kissing babies and hugging fat girls(had to use a Batista reference I guess)</p><p> </p><p> You couldn't exactly portray any face today as a Steve Austin incarnate or a "darker or edgier" character but however now you got faces who are a bit more ruthless in their strikes in the ring or on ambushes. Faces who curse, faces who interfere with weapons, and most importantly faces who haven't suffered a great deal of change to their character... so far. And sure, we still had all that in the past... just for a while back and for a good amount of time it was not the same. The only thing that made Del Rio tolerable was the fact he didn't change his character that much(even though he stopped rolling in with the cars, became more culturally proud, changed his tights and induced crowd chants... ok his character still changed a bit but the core was there, Ricardo was the main selling point anyway), Cody and Ziggler right now.. I mean things are in motion so I can't say yet but it doesn't look like they'll get coerced into a traditional babyface role like how so bloody often it occurred in the past. Countless characters like MVP, Carlito and others who lost their edge, with or without receiving a push breakthrough upon the turn.</p>

Anti-climatic? Yeah right. You'll be peeing your pants like everyone else when it happens. I can imagine why, there's a bunch of guys in the MITB match people wanted to win... pretty much everyone but Sheamus and maybe Punk. Now Orton turning heel sounds like a good prospect. But there's two things about this... the fact that the idea of turning him heel has been running since last year. It's become almost tedious predicting it happening every time something happens or is about to happen to Orton. Also, the fact he won the WWE title MITB. I can't be the only one who isn't too enthused at seeing Orton and Cena face off again. But if Cena loses the title before then or they at least make a good angle out of these two, I won't be turned away by it. Cena/Henry was dreadful, cannot believe they pulled that "can he lift Henry, ladies and gentlemen" crap again. If that's not enough, at the end when he locked the STF on Henry, he got up and dragged him with minimal effort to the middle of the ring like a freakin' cart. Psychology really isn't your strong suit, is it John? Also, RVD, Cody and Bryan were on top form last night. I'm not really a Cody fan but they allowed him to shine and he did it well.

<p>I doubt you'd appreciate Triple H as a heel either... you just need to leave your HHHaterade at the door <img alt="" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/tongue.png.ceb643b2956793497cef30b0e944be28.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /> I mean yeah he's infinitely better as a heel but he would definitely make it all about himself if he were heel. Can't have it both ways.</p><p> </p><p> I can't picture Steph as much of a heel anymore anyway, she pulled it off the best she could in her "the bitch is back" phase a few years ago... but she's had another(or two?) kid since then, it wouldn't feel the same. But I do have a feeling one of the three between Vince, Steph and HHH will turn heel soon.</p>

My bad then, I just wholesomely expected someone to go way back and use the attitude era as a crutch when I didn't specify in my preceding post what era I was referring to. Didn't intend any hard feelings either way. I agree too, and I often think about these past gimmicks as well. I can probably deal with a few more years of Cena, but I'm just hoping the transition on top star billing will be as smooth as it were in the past eras. In other words, I hope someone steps up soon. Even if they don't, the roster has indeed come quite a long way over the last few years.

First of all, I didn't say it was John Cena's fault. This point doesn't have to do with Cena, but with how the result of this is WWE's over-reliance on Cena in general. Second of all, I'm not comparing this scene to 1997, you are, and that's a subject I wouldn't dare touch. Especially comparing today's stars to the Attitude era's cream of the crop. Yeah how convenient is it to bring up Kofi Kingston's name, no he isn't on that level of entertainment and that's obvious. I'm talking about the last few years, circa late 00s where the star power was potent enough that they were giving chances to upper-midcarders while having a relatively rich main-event base. As much as I don't like The Miz, he was given a shot at the big brass and now back to where he was, which I don't mind to be honest but it's been the case with a lot of them and the main-event scene has generally been narrow. If it weren't as narrow, there wouldn't be as much disgruntlement over Cena's presence. All I'm saying is it's something to get used to. There's not really any blame to place on specifically anybody, management may be feeling frisky for the same reasons you're seeing, that it may be the case that half of these midcarders don't really scream big star anytime soon, that said a bit of leeway certainly could've been given upon certain upper-midcarders. Eventually it has in terms of guys like Sheamus and Punk, the main-event scene is slowly getting out of the shell they used to be in about a year or two ago where it got somewhat bad. Personally, I don't think Del Rio is leaps and bounds above Miz or Barrett anyway but that's another topic and most of those guys may come full circle as top dogs one day.

Not that I know what Orton's past actions have to account for anything regarding this, especially something dating from nearly a decade ago but sure. Yeah it's Randy Orton, also the guy who sticks up for Cena whenever criticism is headed his way. Those two are very tight knit, and so when Rock came back the comparisons between him and Cena started blowing up, both the resentful locker room and the IWC(obviously) getting in on it. Orton wasted no time stating that Cena has more control over his promos than most while Rock "gets fed lines after lines for his promos". And it makes sense, I'd assume Cena has the same amount of stronghold over his promos that main-eventers like Shawn and HHH had, would make sense given that Cena is the top dog today. I've always directed the hate at the creative team for the way Cena is portrayed personally, and honestly most people do too, indirectly. You see people here say "I like Cena the man, but Cena the wrestler.." or "John Cena's character is ___" obviously that means they're giving flak to the creative team, without outright saying it. The status quo revolves around Cena. It's not wrong what you're saying, if it was the John Cena show not as many people here would be watching. We know some other stars have been elevated, but it's a far cry from years ago where there was more than one goldmine to milk, and they didn't have to rely on part-timers as much for the big stakes matchups. There sure is more than Cena at the top, but most guys who have a run at the top end up wavering between the upper-midcard and some remote main-event spotlight. Thus, when Cena closes a PPV where he isn't fighting for the title, which has happened several times last year, it's still gonna stick out like a sore thumb. You could tell from a mile away they weren't gonna rely on most of the names you mentioned for WM29's top match-ups. It's just that before the main-event scene was much more malleable, and today(or the last few years) is just something for many older fans to adjust to. Dolph will be a big star player in the future but they'll take their sweet ass time with him. Sheamus, Punk and Del Rio are indeed consistent big star players, but mostly everyone else will randomly take backseats to mesh with the rising pack. And this is all gonna come back to the same argument "well this and this is why Cena is up there, and why the others are under" yeah everybody knows by now. We've heard the same tune throughout this thread. You're bound to expect fans getting bored of his run though, and when they'll vent, they'll indirectly point fingers at the creative team, while saying "we've Cena nuff". Some people got bored of Rock and Austin too at the height of their game but obviously not as much.

Orton actually credited Cena in an interview for being one of the superstars who ad-libs the most in his promos. That was during the whole swarm of Rock/Cena comparisons when Rock first came back. He doesn't outright write them but likely he gets given a few bullet points for the most part then wings the rest of what he gets to say.

This. Pretty much. and this. That is why I couldn't help but respect The Rock to a point. When he came back earlier this year he did his absolute darndest to put over CM Punk. "The Rock knows how dangerous you can be", touting his title reign, etc, the whole works. In about three promos Rock did about five times the amount of building up on Punk that Cena has done during pretty much all their feud. Creative team among other things were feeding him these bullcrap bullet points about always having the villain needing to prove something to him. There's a slight problem with being seen as the top dog and the sympathetic hero at the same time. But it's workable and obviously not as big of a problem for WWE to look upon because the bankrolls keep on coming at the end of the day.

Not to mention Cena is hardly the benchmark for 'charisma' when it comes to sports-entertainment, haha. I mean he is up there in that respect but still. Here's the biggest thing you forgot about the "men". Most of them look at character. Even among the casual fans, men read wrestling like a book, and they get invested in the characters. Now some great workers have a lack of character, or the smarky ones get picky about a main-eventer's character(CM Punk's, Orton's in his Viper phase, HHH, etc) At his worst Cena is a Black Hole Sue/God Mode Sue self-righteous warrior. He's had his opportunistic moments too; multiple title shots when he fails to capture the title, you notice he rarely gets inserted into no.1 contender matches, he just sweet talks his way in. And in a way, Cena's not the first guy to fill some of those shoes. Rock and Hogan got protected/treated to the lengths of Cena in their heyday. But Rock had a badass silver lining to his game and Hogan was a "real american" and the first to do it. You can feed the kids anything but Cena's character is certainly hard to digest for many fans, that's beside the fact that he wins all the time because we've seen that before.

In fairness, it was an UK crowd. Would've bet my bottom dollar they of all people would be all over Fandango. But the momentum of the reaction over the weeks may be fruitful and carry over for when they come back to the US and he next appears, it might catch on or it won't. Raw was average. BoD/Bryan vs. The Shield was great. Pretty bummed they went and done the whole turn with Ryback, but it is what it is. Maybe if he fills Punk's spot it could be worthwhile but even there I'm unconvinced by the move.

Reigns wins for me, by his spear alone. I got weary of the few super heavyweights pulling spears out of their asses in recent years, nothing against them using the move but Reigns brought back the beauty of them.

^That and besides, they had the same issue with Batista, who they let hold the World title multiple times, including his first one being a nine-month title reign which only ended because of him wrestling through injury and got his body real banged up at the end of it. But since the beginning the guy's been blowing chunks five minutes into the match - if they went through all that with Batista, it really shouldn't be an issue with Ryback.

Oh, and in my post about the little things I forgot this gem following the Shield segment off air http://i.imgur.com/F3jtJG4.jpg slightly good feeling when you see how far Daniel Bryan has come.

A lot of the little things apart from what was mentioned here were great - the fact the cash-in had a little back and forth, Ziggler breaking off the armbar, Ryback's "up yours" gesture after he Shellshocked Cena... and the crowd chants. They chanted RVD, JBL, ECW, Randy Savage and a bunch of other things. What a night to make up for Mania. There may be hope just yet, though of course in no way will the subsequent crowds live up to this one.