lazorbeak

<p>I'm just going to ignore the off-topic "this is what I think TEW stats should be" argument.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Self" data-cite="Self" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I like Randy Orton. I don't see much of him because RAW is a scheduling nightmare for me, but during the MitB match he was the guy my eye was drawn to the most. I love his mannerisms. He just sorta walked everywhere. He stood out from everyone else. I dug it. I try not to get involved with 'who is a good wrestler' or 'who has good psychology' debates, because so much of it is subjective and down to taste. I like watching Randy Orton wrestle, more so now that he's a babyface because his chinlocks (while valid heat spots) were a tad repetitive.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> See this is good analysis because you're not coming into it with the preconceived notions that somebody that watches every week and you're coming away with why Orton is suddenly a top babyface without much effort. He has a great look, his mannerisms and facial expressions are some of the best in the sport, and the crowd digs it. I've seen smark fans, even smark fans whose opinions I generally respect struggle to understand why everybody suddenly likes Orton, but those fans are letting their biases towards the work he did 2, 3, or 7 years ago influence them. </p><p> </p><p> One of the most valuable assets as a wrestling viewer is to be able to come into a given show fresh, without a lot of "oh, so and so SUCKS" opinions, and just measure whether you're entertained.</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I guess that's a fair point. <p> </p><p> Still, shouldn't there be at least ONE person in the WWE that can have the psychology I'm talking about? </p><p> </p><p> I mean, I would rank Triple H's psychology at B. (And I'm a fan of HHH, so this isn't any bias AGAINST him... if anything, some you may believe I favor him too much). C.M. Punk, Kurt Angle, and Bryan Danielson would also be at B. The Miz would be a B-. </p><p> The only two I would rank at B+ would have been the Undertaker and Shawn Michaels... but HBK is retired, and in Undertaker's case, his body is too messed up to put his psychology to good use.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Dude seriously this isn't the place to bring up what your fantasy stats would be for WWE guys in TEW. And just for comparison, 15 guys active in the US in the C-Verse have an A for psychology. And you're saying 0 WWE guys would match that?</p><p> </p><p> Compare that to the C-Verse, where 7 of those 15 guys work for either SWF or TCW.</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="MrOnu" data-cite="MrOnu" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>At some point, I'll need to be educated about this ring psychology thing. Even after all those years of watching, I don't think I get what it is supposed to be. Or maybe it's a forest and I can't help but only see the individual trees. <p> </p><p> As for what more can be done about Cena, let me throw a curveball here : being a genuine heel for an extended period of time. I can't remember the last time Cena was heel and relevant to the program. Maybe turning him heel for a period could make him an even bigger face on the long run. This is not a magic formula, it could bomb seriously or simply maintain Cena's popularity, who knows, I'm just throwing the suggestion around. Of course, to work, you would need a big face opponent at some point which is not a very common thing these days in the E.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I think you're right and I've been saying for a year the guy that should do it is Randy Orton. As played out as their feud was a year ago, with Orton as a babyface still playing a psychotic Cena has a genuine reason to turn: he's done everything for the fans, done all the make-a-wish stuff, and dedicated his life to the sport, but the fans choose to cheer for a psychotic malcontent like Orton. For extra heat some McMahon should come out and basically say Cena is everything they want in a champion and Orton is a disgrace to the belt, his family, etc. then manufacture some screwy finish that takes the belt off Orton and gets it onto Cena. I mean yes at a certain point it's re-hashing the Rock/Austin program but that's a money program and it hasn't been done in 11 years, so it passes the 7 year rule.</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> What we think of "yo-yo" pushes is really a way to control how popular a wrestler is. You've seen this Mark Henry. Last year, he was beating Randy Orton. This year, his jobbing out to Wade Barrett. It's way to make sure they don't get more popular than WWE think they should.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Really? I must've missed the show where Henry cleanly pinned Randy Orton in a meaningful match on PPV. Wait, that never happened! Henry won a throwaway TV match minutes after Orton had just wrestled somebody else. Henry was never booked as a main eventer on Orton's level, ever, so it's not particularly surprising that he's in the same spot now he was in a year ago.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> So, in fact, the only other conclusion is the WWE has idiotically bungled Mark Henry's, R-Truth's, Jack Swagger's, Dolph Ziggler's, and a lot of other's pushes because they don't just don't know how to do it right.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> </p><p> Wait, what? Everyone that isn't in the main event had their push idiotically bungled? Because they.... lost matches? You know, not everyone can be a winner at the PPV? Not everyone can be in the main event. It's a fact of life that the guys that are in the main event tend to beat these guys when it comes to the nitty gritty because WWE has invested in guys like Cena, Orton, Edge, Jericho, Big Show, Undertaker, Mysterio and HHH as their top guys. If we push Evan Bourne into the main event, whose spot is he going to take? Is he going to draw more money than Triple H has? Is Dolph Ziggler going to replace Undertaker as a locker room leader? </p><p> </p><p> That's not to say there's no upward mobility. Once John Cena was at the level Jack Swagger, Dolph Ziggler, R-Truth and the rest were at. But through hard work, dedication, charisma, and solid booking, he started getting reactions at the main event level and JBL, Jericho, Angle, and Triple H put him over in the course of a year to solidify him as a top guy.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> Or they are intentionally doing it, or they aren't. If they are, they are being controlling. If they aren't, they are being incompetent. </p><p> </p><p> I rather think they are just being over-controlling, rather than being utterly incompetent.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> You seem to think WWE is incompetent for not throwing everybody in the main event, but their goal has never been to make everybody a top guy. The industry can't support that: only so many guys can be at the top at any one time. It's a business and that business requires guys on the top, more guys in the middle, and even more guys at the bottom to make the middle guys look strong.</p>

<p>You go out to play some sports and an argument breaks out! I agree with everybody arguing that the baseline revenue increases FAR outweigh the potential side effects of them getting a big ego and/or becoming too big for the business. Yeah it hurts when Hogan jumps to WCW in the mid 90's but would Vince trade 8 years of record breaking business? Hogan/Andre? Hogan/Savage? Hogan/Warrior? I doubt it. </p><p> </p><p> Now a couple of fact checks:</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="PeterHilton" data-cite="PeterHilton" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Second..Logan your brain is screwy because Austin put over The Rock big time early in their rivalry (although you could argue Rocky would've been a star regardless) and then, when Triple H made his jump to the main event in 01, it was his feud with Austin (specifically going over clean at No Way in that 2-of-3 fall match) that cemented him as a main eventer.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Austin put the Rock over early in their rivalry? Austin beat the Rock (and beat down the Nation) in 5 minutes to defend his IC belt and then literally gave the Rock the belt in 1997. Rock then got over without any interaction with Austin for 11 months to the point that by Survivor Series 1998 he was getting Austin level babyface reactions, then did the screw-job redux, feuded with Mankind, and only worked with Austin again in '99, with Austin going over. So no, Austin didn't put Rock over big time, and yeah, Rock did become a star regardless.</p><p> </p><p> And Triple H had been a main eventer for 18 months by the time Austin put him over at No Way Out: Austin specifically refused to put Triple H over at Summerslam 1999, leading to Mankind's one day reign. Now it's not Austin's fault he didn't work with Triple H in the meantime as he spent most of the next year dealing with injuries and recharging his batteries, but Triple H had already won the main event of Wrestlemania by the time he beat Austin. Rock, Mankind, and Vince McMahon busted their asses to make Triple H a top guy, but that had nothing to do with Austin. </p><p> </p><p> Maybe you were thinking of Triple H retaining the title over Austin at No Mercy in 1999, where Austin did job, albeit not cleanly, to Triple H after the Rock accidentally hit him with a sledgehammer. </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="shawn michaels 82" data-cite="shawn michaels 82" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>First of all, Autin didn't exactly leave. He would still be in the ring to this day if it wasn't for Owen and some other injuries. And the Rock...well,yes he is the only one having a succesfull career...but he is not a leading man to any extent and in any degree. A good career,but he's not the next Schwarzennegger. Not yet at least. And i doubt he'll get bigger. From now on...down is the way. And he will end up returning like they all do.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> This is also ridiculous. Dwayne Johnson is the definition of a "leading man." He was the lead in the Tooth Fairy (60 mil domestic), Area 51 (40 mil domestic), Race to Witch Mountain (67 mil domestic), and the Game Plan (96 mil domestic) in the past 3 years, and a featured player in Get Smart (130 mil domestic). That's starring in 4 movies and being featured in 5 in 3 years time He's not the next Ahnold because he's not trying to be an action star, and he won't be coming back as an active wrestler, because he is making millions more doing a lot less. Plus he's actually a good actor, so it's not like he'll all of a sudden be unable to find work.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> As far as why Cena isn't bigger, the thing is, one guy by himself can only be so over. Austin got so big in part because McMahon was also that over. Rock and Triple H became big stars because the crowd wanted to see the two fight each other. As big a deal as Hogan was, his feud with Andre made him the biggest star on the planet. Wrestling is not a sport where one guy can just be vaulted above absolutely everyone else for any sustained period of time. As over as Cena is (and he is over), it's rare that he goes into feuds with guys that are in a position to make him a bigger star. They fed HBK and HHH to him, but after that, who else is there on that same level? Undertaker?</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="jbergey_2005" data-cite="jbergey_2005" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="27836" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I have no problems with a team doing what it needs to win. I find the Spurs more boring than either the last 80's Pistons or the late 90's Knicks probably because Duncan has no personality on the court. I wish the NBA would move the rims up to 11 feet so we can watch real basketball again. The athletes in the NBA today are too athletic and tall for 10 foot rims.<p> </p><p> I tend to enjoy college hoops much more as it is a team game where the NBA is too much individual play for my liking.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Doesn't seem fair to hate on Duncan and then say "I like college ball because it's more team oriented." <img alt=":p" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/tongue.png.ceb643b2956793497cef30b0e944be28.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /> I believe it was team ball that embarrassed Lebron James 3 years ago. Yeah Duncan's incredibly bland but he's a workhorse and that team plays 5 man ball as good as any team out there without having a single "superstar" player.</p>

Not like they'd ever read it. You could give an 8 year old a newsletter about exploding killer death robots and they still wouldn't read it.

Punk's a solid hand but I think what a lot of the IWC is whining about when Punk goes from being everybody's favorite to "overrated" is the adjustment in style that absolutely everybody goes through when they work for WWE 200+ days a year. Punk's matches in ROH were great and all but that style doesn't fit what WWE wants to showcase in front of 10,000 people, never mind the fact that it would tear apart guys' bodies. I mean as much fun as wrestling was in 1998 when the big two were still doing high spots on free TV, it got people hurt, shortened careers and in some cases ended careers.

No, in fact I said the opposite. Behold! But yeah, ****ting on somebody's title run before it even happens is pretty much the definition of smarky.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="MasterJ" data-cite="MasterJ" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>lol ok because I want some talent pushed Im a smark Ok:rolleyes:</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yes, all those things you just said make you a smark. What's the disconnect here?</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="MasterJ" data-cite="MasterJ" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Oh let me tell you how much of a smark I am:rolleyes: Yea I dont like miz So I'm a smark huh thats stupid <strong>I mean he has nothing thats shows he is a future star</strong>, his ring work is far from goo his mic skills are mediocore <strong>I would rather see some one with talent be pushed.</strong> Think about it do you see miz ever realy being more than a one time champ then falling into the Jobber to the Stars role? I wonder why so many WWE fans eat up the crazy stuff Vince is doing to create stars I guess some people are real Marks, thats not saying that anyone who likes Miz is. Truth is <strong>there are plenty of people who deseve Miz's push over him.</strong></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yes I think you are a smark because all the bolded things from your quote are incredibly cliche smark things to say. </p><p> </p><p> Again, I'm not saying you have to like the Miz. But try not to embarrass yourself by saying it's "stupid" to suggest you're a smark, then say about 5 incredibly smarky things.</p>

<p>I'm not saying anybody has to love Kane or Miz, I'm saying anyone who says "oh I won't watch the show any more someone NEW is being pushed" needs to stop being such a smark.</p><p> </p><p> And his chin mannerism leaves you "dry" and "apathetic"? Whaaa?</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="The Final Countdown" data-cite="The Final Countdown" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Kane as World champion? I just might stop tuning in to Smackdown for the time being.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="MasterJ" data-cite="MasterJ" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Why would WWE waste their time on Miz that is the worst decison right their I might be done with WWE if he wins the WWE title</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Seriously you've got unpredictable booking giving chances to guys that haven't gotten a chance but have been doing a great job for over a year and longtime stars who the fans know and who have been veterans of the company for nearly two decades and you're bitching about it before the show's even over? And if Orton or Jericho or Edge had won it you'd be right here whining about how the same guys always go over. Stop being so embarrassingly smarky.</p>

Sorry dude, I can/could play dirty when I had to, but that is not what basketball is about. Those games were ugly to watch, and this is coming from a Spurs fan. Maybe, just maybe, you're just feeling nostalgia for when you were 12 years old? http://j4cbo.mirror.waffleimages.com/files/cf/cf42e36787754f581b9e93fa23e0b9882096b075.gif

Uh, no? By and large, nobody's paying to see him. But seriously, there's half a dozen guys that would easily be better choices. Chris Jericho was an incredible heel act and had show stealing matches with Mysterio all summer before making tag team wrestling relevant again. Shawn Michaels was in hands down the greatest match of 2009, and probably the top match of 2010 so far. CM Punk had some great matches with Hardy in the main event before forming the SES. Hardy in 2009 was a breakout star, even if he managed to piss it away by the end of the year. Not to knock AJ but it's not as though no one else can make a case.

Oh yeah they were thugs and as a player and fan I absolutely hated that team and automatically rooted for whoever they played against, but they were definitely significant. God that feud between the Van Gundy's Knicks and Riley's Heat resulted in some of the ugliest basketball I've ever seen. It's so odd to me that I really enjoy Van Gundy in the booth as I absolutely loathed him when he coached the Knicks.

I don't agree they haven't been significant for that long. It's been 10 years since they were a good team but they went to the finals twice in the 90's and probably would've gone one or two times more if not for playing against one of the greatest players in the history of the game so many times. Seriously they were one of the best teams in the league for an entire decade and their rivalries with the Bulls, Pacers, and Heat were huge at the time.

Yeah I don't know why people are shocked by inclusions like this. How many MITBs has Kane or Henry or Finlay won? But one of them is in nearly every one of these things. Remi, you can hate on Maryse's curves, and Candy, you don't gotta be a fan, but she is so good at drawing heat as a heel: everything she does gets genuine heat: her mannerisms are some of the best in WWE today. I mean I compare her against Alicia Fox and it is night and day. They're both green in the ring but Maryse is an infinitely better heel.

Wait, what? It's "completely illogical" to compare TNA's buys to WWE's because WWE has 3X the audience on their flagship shows? That isn't how logic works. And if we can't compare TNA to WWE, can we compare TNA against TNA 4 years ago, when their reported average was in the neighborhood of 25K buys? Obviously there may be other reasons at least partially explaining this drop but it's still a bad thing for your buy rates to go down even as you're spending more money and want to spend even more. Yeah this isn't true either. The two markets do have substantial crossover appeal in fan-base and do compete with each other for a share of each other's pot so to argue that they are completely different sports that in no way effect each other is just false. Seriously it takes someone as out of touch as Vince McMahon to argue that they're not dealing in the same audiences. Wow your definition of "good show" must be substantially different from mine, because most of that looks absolutely awful. From guys winning belts that are below them to overbooked stable nonsense to old guys I don't want to see wrestle getting involved in programs with each other! Oh and even more rehashes of storylines more than 8 years old, done with substantially the same guys! Yessssss! TNA: We are Wrestling Re-Runs.

Honestly I don't understand the need for Bosh. He's worth his contract for his offensive production to this point, but his scoring is going to drop significantly next year when he ends up as a #3 option. He's a good but not exceptional rebounder, too skinny to d-up in the post, and actually recorded less blocks (at 6'10) than D-Wade did last season!!! I mean as unfair as it would be, Dwight Howard would make sense as a #3 option in the post, because he gives you power and defensive presence in the middle that Wade and LeBron don't give you. If I were Pat Riley I would much rather have my own Shane Battier, maybe get Tayshaun Prince off the sinking ship that is the Pistons, or bring in a younger guy like Ronnie Brewer to play perimeter D, then get someone who can play the low post to complement Haslem, who is a very good role player. Birdman Andersen would be my top pick but any defensive-minded center would work. And even at a reduced price you could get a Ronnie Brewer and a Center for a lot less than Chris Bosh.

Personally I didn't even think RVD's music was the worst in that match; Jeff's is pretty awful, too. And it was kind of a mediocre main event but it was a solid show overall. I'm not sure that RVD is really the "right guy" except in the sense that he's a talented worker. From what I just watched, both Kennedy and Hardy are more over with the home crowd, Pope is both excellent on the mic and not doing a re-tread of a gimmick he did in that other company 5 years ago. Joe, AJ, and Nigel (not even on the card), have the advantage of being "home grown." I just don't see what RVD as champ does for TNA long-term. I understand giving him the belt for a month or two so you can say that he's a main eventer and former champion, but he can't cut a promo, isn't all that over and was doing the exact same bit 5 years ago when he was getting the revived ECW off the ground.

As already mentioned, Childress isn't a point guard but a swingman, and Goran Dragic's performance against the Spurs seems to indicate at least right now he's Steve Nash's replacement off the bench. I am curious to see how Childress plays after being in Europe for two years. He's never been a high volume shooter but he's always been good at making open shots. I think the Suns are the perfect transition from Europe since they play such a wide open style, and it'd be nice if he could put up Marion type numbers on offense. Hedo's a good fit for the team, but at their age and with their holes on defense and in the middle I'd expect something closer to Chris Mullin's Warriors: a team that will score points and present matchup problems without ever really challenging anyone in the post-season.

They are similar players and you did a good job pointing out the similarities. For me, LeBron is obviously more physically gifted: he is far stronger and able to take a beating that Wade cannot take. Wade's health is obviously a bigger concern than LeBron's. But I completely agree with you about Wade having a bigger heart. The fact that he averages similar numbers in points, assists, and blocks(!) despite not having the body LeBron has is extremely impressive. He's also had to develop a slightly better move-set off the dribble and improved his shooting significantly from when he came into the league. But he's a special player in terms of heart. He willed the Heat back into those Finals.

Yeah I'm also living in Houston so I'm familiar with the topic, which is why I said he was the one superstar, which he was. Kenny Smith was a great outside shooter, Otis Thorpe was a very good power forward, and Cassell and Horry would make big contributions in the playoffs and go on to have successful careers, but that first title, it was all about Hakeem: he simply could not be stopped: everybody else was role players getting open off double teams. By the time the Rockets got Barkley he was already 33 years old and really had one good season left in him. Plus since both Kenny Smith and Cassell were gone the team was really weak at the point.

Magic averaged 12 assists a year while LeBron had his best season ever with 8: that's a pretty wide margin. And again, Magic was able to guard a bigger range of players and while he wasn't nearly the scorer in terms of volume, again, his offensive efficiency is significantly higher than James. We don't know what he can do in terms of other stats but someone his strength should be a lot better at guarding 4's, should have quicker hands/more steals, and should be able to get more than one block a game. But it's not really "talent" until he shows it. Until then it's just "potential." Well I know how good he was, but his offense was so good it overshadowed his defense to the point that today his defense isn't as well-known. When you just look at the numbers it really comes out that there is nobody in the league today that could touch him. I mean, in the 88-89 season he averaged 32 points, 8 rebounds, 8 assists, and 3 steals a game while shooting 54% as a shooting guard. That's unreal. For comparison, zero players scored that much this season, Andre Iguodala led all Shooting Guards with 6.5 rebounds a game, six guys (none of them Shooting Guards) averaged more than 8 assists, no one averaged as many steals, and 9 guys, all of them centers or power forwards averaged more than 54% from the field: Ray Allen led all shooting guards at 47.7%. And while those numbers were peaks in rebounding and assists for Jordan, they were about statistically average with his scoring, stealing, and FG%. I mean Kobe's a great player and a future hall of famer, but he's not nearly as good in any of those stat categories.