consortium11

Much appreciated. I think the Faust Family is probably the direction I'm going to take things in when I start my first proper game, likely with the Bantom, Grave Digger and Badberry combination. Looked at purely in mechanical terms those three using their menace with Faust's entertainment skills should both give good ratings and develop their own charisma. Beyond that them getting involved with Dark Angel (because of his starting feud with Faust) gives each of them ring time with a ring general who can develop their performance skills further. Looked in narrative terms it also strikes me as making sense... the way I see Faust he's exactly the sort who would bring in a team of psychopathic monsters to bend to his will and help him out. Looking longer term it also sets itself up for a future feud if/when I turn Tommy Cornell face. If the Cornell family still exist at that point then there's the "who's the first family of 21CW angle" (building on the fact this will probably be post Dark Angel/Tommy where I'll have already developed the family idea by having Harry Wilson join in). If the Cornell Family are done by that point then it's Faust's ego and wish to destroy 21CW (I've always played him as more sinister than simply being a weasel) making him attack the new face of the company. Arguably even more so than above it's a way to develop the talents of the young monsters; Cornell's even better than Dark Angel at developing their in-ring skills while his entertainment skills mesh near perfectly with Faust's own and their menace. Looking even beyond that, I'm probably going to present the monsters themselves slightly differently. While Badberry and Bantom are "true believers" in Faust, Grave Digger will be more of a hired gun (at least in narrative... the gimmick change will appear when appropriate) who Faust has brought in specifically to take out first Dark Angel and then the Cornell's. As such he's always somewhat of an outsider from the rest of the Family which in turn sets up a big face turn later on... there aren't that many high menace, high star quality types out there who can play good babyfaces so I intend to make use of it. If I was more confident in Bantom's ability to play a babyface (currently rated 58) he'd likely get the nod there... he's more prepared to strike out on his own and the idea of Faust bringing in a hired gun seemingly works better for a guy brought in from Europe than from the National School of Wrestling. Now, that's a plot idea... Faust having a plan to corrupt all the NSoW graduates to his cause. That's a clear feud with the trainer, Matravers... *ponders*

Honestly, it's a challenge... the UK in general and 21CW in particular has been the land of the high menace heels for a couple of versions now and it's rather easy for them to blend into each other. First step: separate out "monster heels" from guys who simply have high menace. There are some guys there with good menace scores who I don't really see as monster heels despite often being heavyweights; the Ivanoffs, Mass Hulk and Viktor Beskoff for example. While I still tend to book them as menaces (both mechanically and in narrative terms) in my mind they're not really the traditional monster heels. With all of the guys I mentioned also being part of tag teams I find this pretty easy to do, especially with Hulk and Beskoff; Hulk is the Cass to Mark Adonis' Enzo (i.e. the big guy to the smaller talker) while Beskoff is the "enforcer" for the Red Devils... almost Kane/Bryan without the comedy. As for the Ivanoff's I keep them together as a bully heel tag team which largely separates them out from the other monsters. Second step; separate out those with potential from those who are going nowhere. This largely relates to Danny Paterson (who's getting old) and Nightmare (who's rubbish). In both cases I tend to use them as overness generators for others, either in singles or tag matches. Menace makes it very easy to gain overness and so it's easy to use menace angles to build overness for Nightmare/Patterson and then lose to the wrestler I really want to get over to transfer it. Nightmare I use almost as Khali during his last days in WWE... a terrible wrestler but a decent enough spectacle when someones beats him... while Patterson is closer to the Big Show (either alone or with Harley Neil); a decent upper-midcarder for "fill in" feuds and to help elevate people to the main event. Third step: Separate out "bodyguards/enforcers" from in-ring pushes. If you look at how big men are booked in wrestling a lot of them start their careers by doing little but standing there looking menacing, interfering in matches and occasionally being in tag matches. The early days of Deacon Batista come to mind, as does Big Zeke's run with Kendrick or Strowman with the Wyatts. That bodyguard type role is a simple way to have them involved but not really need them to offer or do anything. For example, I could see Faust having say Badberry and Bedlam as his thugs for hire, standing behind him during interviews and attacking wrestlers for him. In contrast to this there are guys who you'll want to have in the ring a lot, both to help them develop and get them over quicker. Beast Bantom for example is only really some performance skills away from being ready for the main event... putting him in matches with guys who can help develop them. Someone like Grave Digger is on paper one of the best prospects in the game... his menace, star quality and solid charisma are a license to print overness, unlike most monster types he can actually play a face well and for a 21 year old big guy his in-ring skills are very respectable. A slow burn build for him where he's frequently in the ring to develop those skills but isn't moved up the card too much in the short term would do him a world of good. Fourth Step: Schrodinger's pre-show. Even with that in mind you're still likely to have a lot of monsters left over... Grave Digger, War Machine, Brickhouse Balder, Badberry and Bedlem could all conceivably be called prospects who you want to develop with in-ring time. But with a TV based company like 21CW what happens on the pre-show may or may not exist... and it largely doesn't matter. Don't be afraid to simply have them in some throw-away/development matches prior to the show starting to keep them happy and developing without you having to do too much with them. Fifth Step: Not all monster heels are the same. There's a tendency to think of all monster heels as the same and that they should be booked the same way... squash people, use high menace move forward. It doesn't have to be that simple. Take the Wyatt Family in WWE for example. Each of them could conceivably be considered a monster heel in their own right (to a greater or lesser extent) but each is booked very differently. Wyatt himself is the talker and leader, Harper is the main workhorse, Rowan is his developing partner and Strowman, while also being developed, is more a special attraction/spectacle. There's no reason the same can't be done here... building/modifying an above idea have Faust as the leader/talker/most over then have say Bantom as the best worker of the remaining guys, Badberry as his partner/developing talent and Grave Digger as the special attraction/enforcer. And that's just the Wyatt family. If you look across the rest of the WWE you can see a variety of guys who could conceivably be presented as "monsters" right now; Big Show, Kane, Mark Henry, Corbin, Ryback, possibly even Gallows etc. Each have a different take on what being a monster means... from the "jock bully" take that Ryback and to an extent Corbin use to Kane's more demonic side and each is used in different ways. Sixth step: live the gimmick Building on that, make sure to think of gimmicks as more than just stats. Beast Bantom the bully is going to be different to Beast Bantom the bodyguard is going to be different to Beast Bantom the strongman is going to be different to Beast Bantom the hired gun brought in to take on a specific wrestler. That's just looking at brute gimmicks. So that's a general way to think about things. For some specific ideas that may spark something: The Faust Family: Pretty much the idea above. Two or three monsters end up helping out Faust in whatever feud he's involved in, providing muscle and fear factor. The Bully: 21CW has quite a lot of lightweight face workers out there who a monster heel could conceivably be matched against. Use it to either build a monsters overness while improving their performance skills or to get one of those smaller workers over with the "upset" win. The Enforcer/Bodyguard: As well as Faust I can see the likes of Luke Cool, Hot Stuff, Rolling Johnny Stones, Phillip Cooper and even the Cornell family each wanting a big guy to back them up and interfere in their matches. European Invasion: A more specific idea; Sebastian Koller can play a heel pretty well and he and Bantom were both brought in from European promotions. Have them do an invader type angle, likely lined up against the Defence Force (Bantom's menace and Koller's charisma should cut down the overness gap relatively quickly). Once that is done you can have the pair split... say Koller has learned to appreciate the British fans while Bantom still plays the invader and then have a feud between them. King's Court: Probably the simplest idea... it's not a challenge to keep them different to each other because you don't bother with that. Have Cliff King add a bunch of them (as well as pre-existing client Nightmare) to his client list and have them as a monster heel faction that constantly targets one mid-card to upper-midcard babyface (Wade Orson, Sebastian Koller and Harry Wilson all being decent starting options) and tries to take them out... normally unsuccessfully in matches but successfully in angles and post-match attacks. Good ways to build the skills and overness of some of the younger guys.

Fantasy booking in my head I'm probably intending to keep Cornell heel for long enough that I can do a program vs Dark Angel (time decline be damned) which, even if it doesn't technically qualify for icon vs icon in-game (I haven't tested to check) is pretty much that. You've got arguably the two most famous UK workers of all time, neither of whom have really crossed paths before now finally getting to meet in a UK promotion that is actually make a buzz in the wider world... it's a story that almost writes itself even without running a variation of the Sting/Hollywood Hogan feud with Dark Angel stalking Cornell. So in the mean time have the Dark Angel vs Faust storyline play out with Dark Angel going over and the Cornell Family storyline play out, probably with Matravers winning the title (possibly due to Dark Angel distracting Tommy in some way?) before moving them onwards. The issue, which you hint at, is that 21CW doesn't really have anyone lined up to be a figurehead outside of Tommy. In fluff terms Adam Matravers is probably the best bet but in mechanical terms he lacks the star quality and charisma to really take it on. Kevin Jones is in an even worse position. Longer terms perhaps a Martinez face turn (if you can increase his charisma a bit) and looking beyond that maybe stepping one of Wade Orson or Leigh Burton up... but by then you can probably have turned Cornell face and used him instead.

If the dirt sheets are correct Lanny Pofo (Savage's brother) will only let the WWE induct Savage if he himself gets in (as a sort of "Family Entry" I guess). While I enjoyed Pofo's work (as Leaping Lanny he was the king of enhancement talent and one of the first to bring moonsaults and the like to the WWF/E and I loved his Genius character) he's nowhere near a Hall of Fame place on his own and I can see why the WWE don't want to bring him in. That's to say nothing of his em... shall we say... "different" stories which have come out in shoot interviews...

The Diaz brother's have never lost a fight*... They just keep running out of time... * (apart from when they were stopped)

To be fair, he'd been crippled by Arona's leg kicks at that point and if can remember correctly had eaten a punch in the eye while Arona had his back. Adding 60lbs of muscle didn't massive change his style or skills. He bulked up which gave him more one-shot power and less speed (although he's still fairly quick for a heavyweight) but otherwise his style is basically the same. He doesn't throw as many single knees from the outside as he once did but his bread and butter is still single shots (often with a loop), with the occasional 1-2 which is sometimes followed up by a kick or, if he presses into the clinch, a knee and he still likes to bully forward into the pocket/clinch. In essence his style has remained the same throughout... a big fighter for his weightclass with good single-shot power (especially in his knees), a varied and dangerous clinch game (with underated trips and throws) and a ground game which takes people by surprise (both from on top and the bottom) with an exceptional guillotine. He likes to use lateral movement to avoid opponents strikes (and take them on the gloves if he can) before pressing into the pocket/clinch from where he scores with knees and takedowns. If you leave your neck exposed he'll latch on a choke and if you don't have a solid ground game he'll grind you out from the top. Likewise his weaknesses have remained; he has a gas tank that tends to lapse by around the 10th minute, even in a relatively low paced bout, he's sometimes a little too open with his grappling defence, his stand-up defence is fairly poor, he rarely counters (instead preferring to wait out a combination before firing back), he keeps his head on centreline rarely moving it, his footwork is fairly sloppy and he doesn't react well to being hit, often starting to panic. He's clearly very skilled... despite being a weaker year than previously you don't win a K-1 GP without having talent, likewise the ADCC European trials. But throughout his MMA career he's basically been a gatekeeper; genuine contenders/champions generally beat him: see losses to Arona, Shogun, Lil' Nog, Werdum, Sergei, Chuck and even Hoffman (for the time) while picking up the odd win against that level of fighter (see Werdum and Sergei) but generally beating on the those who are not at that level, be it from fading away, not getting there yet or never coming close (see Igor, Thompson, Duffee, Belfort, Bencic etc). Stylistically he's dangerous for grapplers and wrestlers in that his strength makes him hard to take down or bully in the clinch, he's got solid grappling (both offensive and defensively) and his sheer power means that he can end things with a single shot. Against strikers the flaws in his stand-up become more apparent. He still has the talent and the power to beat anyone... but he simply hasn't been able to consistently do it against upper echelon competition.

There's also the small matter of Overeem not being that great at MMA. Throughout his long career (roughly 14 years and 49 matches) what "top" wins does he have in MMA at either LHW or HW? A very narrow win over Werdum (who he'd previously lost to) and a fluke injury related win over Kharitonov (who he was later knocked out by)? I guess if you're generous you could put a win over a shot Brock in there as well but frankly, that's about it. The record gets worse when you consider that for a guy noted as a striker, his record against fellow strikers when it remains standing is pretty awful. He was knocked out by the previously mentioned Kharitonov (and in their first bout, much like the Hunt contest, Overeem took the fight to the ground immediately), Rua took him out with a combination of striking and ground work twice, Chuck knocked him out, Bobby Hoffman knocked him out, Diet Nog lit him up standing and Arona of all people kicked him apart with leg kicks (although the Brazilian Tiger has always had pretty solid leg kicks). Overeem's MMA resume is basically built on beating the likes of shot versions of Buentello, Vovchanchyn, Fujita and Goodridge, Belfort at his worst, untested prospects like Duffee and journeymen like Thompson, with a side order of undersized scrubs from Eastern Europe and Japan. On paper he should be a real force... massive physical power, an ADCC Europe winner (with three submissions) and a K-1 Champ. But that misses that ADCC Europe hadn't got the deepest of talent pools at the time (let alone at heavyweight) and that his K-1 run was pretty soft; despite individual good wins his final two fights to win the title were against a man with a broken arm and a man who had nothing left. Moreover, his style in K-1 was to basically put his gloves up, bully forward and weather his opponents storm and then either (when it was allowed) get the clinch and deliver knees or try to counter with powerful hooks. With smaller MMA gloves you can't hide behind them anywhere near as effectively with far more of your defences having to come from range, head movement and parrying... things Overeem has never been particularly strong at. Then add in a gas tank that even at its best rarely has more than 10 minutes in it and it's not a pretty picture. That's not to say he can't win big fights... his physical strength makes him hard to take down meaning many wrestlers especially will struggle with him and with his power he can always land a single punch/knee and end it. It's just that in 14 years he's very rarely done so...

On the e-fed side of things, back in the days when I took part in them my favourite character I played with was "Matty Midget" who, as the name implied, was a midget. A punk, anarchist midget who acted like he was the meanest, toughest, nastiest brawler around but a midget all the same. Originally his finisher was a 630 senton (I went with the logic that considering his size it would be pretty easy to do) but as time went by and he kept facing opponents who would have Psycho Drivers and Ganso Bombs as their standard moves I made his moveset a little more... shall we say conservative. A main finisher of a drop kick to the knee and a back up submission finisher of a headlock. You want your character to be the most badass of the badass with a finisher from the world of fantasy? Fine But your guy is still going to be kicked in the knee and then tap out to a headlock ------------------ With regards to the Rumble itself I enjoyed the show and the Rumble match itself but it all left me a bit... I guess the term would be deflated. Take the Rock/Punk match for example. It was pretty clear who was going to win (especially considering Cena had just won the Rumble) but beyond that the match was just a bit... well flat. This was the end of Punk's title reign, a title reign that is the longest for decades. Despite the fact that his "best in the world" character had been eroded over the previous months by only getting cheap wins it still should have been epic. And it wasn't. That's not to focus in on the People's Elbow finish as some others have done (although logic wise it's always been slightly odd that a spine-buster/elbow combination gets a pin when say another move and a top rope elbow doesn't)... The Rock's put down virtually everyone he's faced with it at one time or another and it's one of the most over moves out there... but on the whole finish. It was a match begging for false finishes and near falls, for Rock to kick out of the GTS and for Punk to kick out of the Rock Bottom (especially with the way the Rock had hyped the promos up previously). It was a match begging for a Pepsi Plunge tease and for a frantic dash in the last four or five minutes. It never quite got there. The closest example I can think of is a match between the Rock and Kurt Angle for the belt when Austin had won the Rumble. We all sort of knew it would be Rock/Austin at Wrestlemania and all Kurt was there for was to put on an exciting match... but even then in the finish it took two Rock Bottoms to put Kurt away, not a spinebuster and an elbow without a huge dash before hand. It was just... a bit flat. The same can be said of the Rumble itself. It had individually good moments (I actually enjoyed Santino going wild) and was well put together (I didn't particularly like Kofi's chair spot but the way it was used to set the scene for the Team Hell No fallout worked perfectly) but I just never felt that it really had... well, "that." One of the best things about the Rumble is the way it can allow individual workers to shine and get noticed. This Rumble didn't have that. Yes Ziggler lasted a long time... but simply lasting a long time doesn't really mean much now and he spent most of that time clutching the ropes or nearly being eliminated. Yes, Bo Dallas eliminated Barrett... but then there's not a huge amount beyond that (and is that really on the level of say Maven eliminating the Undertaker). Where was say Punk hitting the GTS on HHH? Or Punk preaching in the ring as each new person came out? Or anything to really show that a superstar has arrived. Have Ziggler eliminate Orton, have Miz (even if I hate his face turn) throw out someone important (although I note that there weren't really many top level heels in the Rumble) or, and I was virtually waiting for this, have Cesaro eliminate someone by doing the flapjack uppercut by the ropes and send them over. Just... well, something to really stand out. Because in truth, not much did.

I'd be a bit hesitant about saying Punk "creates" new moves. One of the defining characteristics of his WWE run has been how much he's... I guess the polite term would be "borrowed" from others, both with his moveset and some of his punchlines. Excluding the obvious tribute with his elbow drop, the GTS is exactly the same as KENTA's (down to the same name), the Anaconda Vice is basically Hiroyoshi Tenzan's Anaconda Cross and he's been known to throw some busaiku knees in his time. He also briefly started to use Bryan Danielson's arm trap elbow strikes. With regards to his punchlines, the ones that stick out are his "I'm not trapped in here with you, you're not trapped in here with me" at Elimination Chamber (from Watchmen) and the recent "Your arms are too short to box with God" (from a 1927 Sermon, a broadway musical and a bunch of hip-hop songs). That's not an outright criticism; most of the US audience will never have seen the Japanese wrestlers Punk has borrowed moves from (and its unlikely they ever will) and much of Punks talent comes from his delivery of lines but it's still a bit of a... well, not an issue but not something great either. Especially with regards to moves, which a lot of pro-wrestlers can be a bit sensitive about. There's a bit of hypocrisy there as well... one of the reasons Punk and Hart got into a fight back in their TNA days was over Hart simply taking other peoples moves and using them (as well as Hart generally being an arrogant jerk). Rey's been known to borrow a move or two in his time as well. It's also a case of evolving your moveset. To take Punk as a simple example when he first came into the WWE his main moves were the corner knee/bulldog, Anaconda Vice, the rope-assisted chicken wing, springboard clotheslines, some busaiku knees and the slap, slap, backfist, high kick, Rock Bottom combo into the Anaconda Vice. The only one that really remains a regular move out of those is the knee/bulldog combination (although the Vice is used somewhat regularly). Even Cena, the most loathed of the five moves of doomsters, has added (or at least readded) bits. He brought back the fisherman suplex and the top rope leg drop to the back of the head from his Prototype days, brought in the STFU as a new finisher, combined his spinout powerbomb and the five-knuckle shuffle in ways he didn't previously and generally set up some new variations. Compare that to Triple H who has basically been using the knee facebuster, spinebuster, high knee and Pedigree since the days he was coming out to Beethoven's Ninth.

One note of caution about this. A couple of years back Raven was doing one of his tours of the various indy promotions and shoot videos where he was making the same point... all these young indy kids could do a whole bunching of jumpy, spinny, droppy on the heady stuff but they couldn't tell a story in a match; it was move, rest, move, move, other guys move, move, rest, move, move, move pinfall. He was describing his own matches and the stories he was telling. The way he described it the matches sounded amazing... deep, meaningful, realistic. Then I saw some of his matches... And they were dire. Simply awful. The sort of indy style over the top spot monkey stuff is pretty bad but, for all its sins you can at least see that jumpy, spinny stuff that may lose it's impact but is at least good the first couple of times (and good workers recognise this... there's a reason Ricochet stopped pulling out double moonsaults at every indy show) where as a match with a "story" when the story is awful is just... well, pretty awful. It's a situation where something is far better on paper or being described than it is in person. The closest example I can probably think of is Bernard Hopkins in boxing. If you watch him train or listen to him talk about a bout it's fascinating and insightful. If you actually watch him box (at least in recent years) it's an exercise in defeating insomnia.

Indeed. He did it for the Rock. He did it for the people. It's actually quite an intriguing storyline in theory. You have worker who's good friends with another worker... but sees his friend be overshadowed by another worker. He can't bare it and knows his friend would never do anything underhanded... so takes it on himself. You've got an interesting turn, conflict between him and his friend, him and the other worker and the two other workers themselves. Of course, expecting Rikishi... who was most over as a dancing fat man who rubbed his bum on opponents faces and couldn't cut an interview... to hold it together was a step too far. On topic, I'm putting together a 21CW dynasty as we speak (in truth, I'm also getting my post-count up so I'm allowed to post links). No particular gimmick or hook to the story... mainly just my own lack of talent with the game as a selling point.

I think it was pretty clear that Big John dislikes the way fighters "play the game" to avoid getting kneed in the head and so was doing his bit to... I'm not sure what the correct term would be, but I'll say "make sure" the rules were followed. Fair play to Dodson in the interviews afterwards... he flat out said he was playing the game and as such he couldn't be upset if he caught an errant knee or two by doing so.

Absolutely. The nature of WWEs product means that vast majority of offence will be of the "basic" variety. In some ways this actually helps as it increases the impact when a "big" move is actually done. Even on the indies you'll actually find that a lot of the better workers deliberately limit their offensive arsenal... Cesaro/Castagnoli built most of his matches around European uppercut variations, the Ricola Bomb, the bicycle kick, the UFO, the Alpamare Waterslide and some moves designed to hype his strength (Karelin lifts and 60 second giant swings and suplexes). Chris Hero's gimmick was once basically how many times he could lock someone in a cravate during a match. One of the most stereotypical "indy" things you'll see is workers who bust out three dozen moves over the course of a match. Teddy Hart seems to be the perfect example... he's fantastically athletic, has a great selection of moves (as well as being crazy as hell) but within five minutes of a match starting you'll likely see about eight different "big" moves with little transition between them. I think it was an old CZW match I watched which featured a top rope half-nelson suplex by Dan Maff... which came mid-match and got a two count. It was an impressive looking move and it came in the midst of the head-drop craze which swept the indies... but it still robbed the move of impact and more importantly, robbed the next dozen moves of the same.

Some more additions... The Rock Samoan Drop Snap DDT Cena Top rope Legdrop to the back of the head Fisherman Suplex/Protoplex "Spinout" (and I use that term loosely) Powerbomb/Blue Thunder Bomb Drop Kick