Why is it graphics = great diary here?

[DocStevens]

[QUOTE=SadisticBlessings;266526]Really, I don't think the problem is as serious as Vitamin E and Anderz are making it out to be. I feel that if your diary has staying power (and since you're apparently here to "BRING QUALITY TO THE DIARY FORUM", I would hope your diary does), whether or not your diary has a lot of graphics doesn't matter one bit. Frankly, I worry that this post has more to do with personal grievances. It feels to me like folks are more concerned with the fact that not enough people are reading their own diaries than they are with the overall quality of writing on the forum. Simply by looking around on the first couple pages, I can easily spot several diaries (tristram's "The Death of WCW?", Wildfire1324's "NWA: A Return to Glory", Scapino1974's "MWA - This Means War", and Clarity's DOTM, "CornellVerse Explored" to name a few) that have little in the way of graphics but are still, according to the forum counts, very well read. So obviously, it's not as clear-cut as "People on GDS only read diaries with lots of pictures". Additionally, I notice you complain that nobody here criticizes diaries enough, which isn't entirely true... after all, [i]you[/i], for one, seem to be quite devoted to the craft. My suggestion to you? Instead of spending all of your time reading and then bashing what you don't like, dedicate just a little bit of it to giving positive reinforcement to the people you think are doing well. There are plenty of diaries on this board that feature high levels of depth, excellent narrative style, and get across more personality in match write ups than I thought possible. But I've never seen you post in a single one to give your support. Guys like Tigerkinney, Gremlinator, J Silver, Anubis and gbasalmon have been writing their diaries for months, have painstakingly developed the characters they're working with, and have seen a huge amount of refinement in their writing style. Rather than bashing guys like TheEgo and panix for being graphically fixated, why not encourage people like them and try to bring readers around to those diaries? On a personal level, I agree with you, by the way. Some diaries here have too much clutter and too many graphics. But I think placing all the blame for low readership in your own diary on this fact is asinine. Diaries gain readership because they have staying power, because their writers are dedicated and continue to work on it over a long period of time - not because of graphics. And lastly, saying that your diary would be better received on another board is ludicrous. Places like EWB have so many vanilla WWE diaries floating around that chances are yours would just blend in with the crowd and never be seen again. :p[/QUOTE] Great post that really sums up what is going on!!!

[Remianen]

Well, to give an opposing viewpoint, I disagree. While yes, it does occasionally get tiresome, I think you're looking at it from a very narrow minded perspective. If you're doing a WWE or WCW or TNA diary, yeah I can see where your opinion might be valid. However, given the fact that many people enjoy the Cornellverse and many more people have NFC about the Cornellverse, pictures help with association. Putting a face to a name is, or can be, extremely important. I would disagree with your blanket assertion that the diaries at CX or EWB are universally better. I haven't been impressed with the ones I've read at those sites. Also, you have to keep in mind that many people share Clarity's view. If you frequent any sites outside of wrestling, you might be familiar with the phrase "tl,dr" in various forms. Know what that stands for? "too long, didn't read". This is the sound byte generation, by and large, and folks don't really respond well to pure text presentations....or what's PowerPoint for? But it's all a matter of personal opinion and taste. I know that I use graphics in my diary because I realize many or most people aren't very familiar with women's workers in the Cornellverse PLUS I like the way it makes each show look, with proper spacing (as a result of the pictures) that cannot be achieved with the forum's inherent capabilities. Going pure text would actually be EASIER for me because I can write/type so much, Tolstoy would say "tl, dr". Perhaps that's one reason I generally only read the Cornellverse and non-WWE/WCW/TNA diaries. I'd agree that graphics should not and cannot take the place of compelling content. However, used hand in hand with good storylines, writing, and character development, graphics can often make the good, better.

[Michael Wayne]

my take is that if people are interested in a particular diary, and follow it, how hard can it be to reply. There's so many diaries (mine included :p) where the bulk of the topic is the OP adding and adding and adding and not getting any feedback. And if ONE person does, then it feels like they're doing the whole thing for one person. Certain topics like the one stickied at the top of the section get replies daily, and yet there's diaries out there with several hundred views and no replies outside of the author. Seriously. If that many people are viewing it, it can't be THAT bad, so why not leave some feedback. Make suggestions etc. If people feel a certain diary isn't up to it's potential, help the OP out and give suggestions and feedback so that when the ideas are applied, and the extra effort put forward that the results can be far superior than before.

[Nevermore]

[QUOTE=Remianen;266539]Well, to give an opposing viewpoint, I disagree. While yes, it does occasionally get tiresome, I think you're looking at it from a very narrow minded perspective. If you're doing a WWE or WCW or TNA diary, yeah I can see where your opinion might be valid. However, given the fact that many people enjoy the Cornellverse and many more people have NFC about the Cornellverse, pictures help with association. Putting a face to a name is, or can be, extremely important. I would disagree with your blanket assertion that the diaries at CX or EWB are universally better. I haven't been impressed with the ones I've read at those sites. Also, you have to keep in mind that many people share Clarity's view. If you frequent any sites outside of wrestling, you might be familiar with the phrase "tl,dr" in various forms. Know what that stands for? "too long, didn't read". This is the sound byte generation, by and large, and folks don't really respond well to pure text presentations....or what's PowerPoint for? But it's all a matter of personal opinion and taste. I know that I use graphics in my diary because I realize many or most people aren't very familiar with women's workers in the Cornellverse PLUS I like the way it makes each show look, with proper spacing (as a result of the pictures) that cannot be achieved with the forum's inherent capabilities. Going pure text would actually be EASIER for me because I can write/type so much, Tolstoy would say "tl, dr". Perhaps that's one reason I generally only read the Cornellverse and non-WWE/WCW/TNA diaries. I'd agree that graphics should not and cannot take the place of compelling content. However, used hand in hand with good storylines, writing, and character development, graphics can often make the good, better.[/QUOTE] I was going to post in this thread but I think you summed up everything I had to say better than I could have. Your reference to "tl, dr", which I've never heard before, really shocked me, though. That's so lazy on so many levels that it seems to be a sad but accurate indictment of the internet generation. Quote The raven Nevermore

[shipshirt]

I don't think this post is accurate at all. A good diary=a good diary around here. Everyone has their likes and dislikes and I see plenty of diaries that are raved about that contain the bare minimum of graphcs. I, myself, am not a huge fan of a ton of graphics but I'm also not a fan of reading about every spot that was done during a match. Hit the highpoints, get the characters over and forward the storylines. Again, though, that's just my personal preference. Some like more graphics, some like more detail. I sure as hell wouldn't lambast someone's diary because it didn't fit my idea of what it should be. I look at it like this...this is a hobby of mine. I enjoy writing my diary and I hope people enjoy reading it. By and large, I'm doing this for me, though. It's something I'm enjoying and something I'm having fun with. I'm always open to suggestions if they are presented with a modicum of respect, courtesy and are actually helpful. At the end of the day though, I don't "work" for anyone on this board and I'm not beholden to what someone else's idea is of a show or diary presentation. It's all for fun and when it stops being that, I'll just play my games on my own and forego a diary. I think the real message in this thread is "why don't *I* have the kind of response that Panix...et al gets in his/her diary?!?!"

[SHaynes23]

Personally I don't have a preference one way or another. What I don't like though is huge blocks of text. I'm not afraid to read a long diary entry, but I like when it is broken up becuase when there is a mammoth paragraph I find myself skipping parts of it for some reason. I personally use graphics because that's the way I've always learned the best and it just tends to keep my attention better. But if a dynasty has zero pictures, I'm fine with that too as long as it has substance and is somewhat formatted.

[panix04]

[QUOTE=shipshirt;266575] I think the real message in this thread is "why don't *I* have the kind of response that Panix...et al gets in his/her diary?!?!"[/QUOTE] QFT, i know i am not even in the same league as people like Tristram, Nevemore, G-prime and countless others who are all superb and i do get a lot of feedback 'cos people on here know me (cos i live on here) im sure if VE spent as much time posting on here as me he might end up with a similar level of noteriety, although i guess there is a slim chance that some of the peeps who give me feedback think i can tell a good story. :D

[Marcel Fromage]

As someone who has just started a diary which is predominantly graphic based, I thought I should add my tuppence worth here... Many of the diaries I have followed since I've been playing TEW have not had graphics. The ones which hold my attention longest often don't have graphics. That's because they grab me in one way or another and there's the right amount of writing (for my personal preference). However, I would still generally prefer the text broken up somehow, be it by pictures, different text types or colours or whatever. Something that makes it easier to read. When I read dynasties, its usually late at night and I'm knackered from work. So I want a nice, comfortable read. Others want much more detail, others less. Nobody is right or wrong about it. I also think different diaries fit different feds better. I'm playing ROF and have kept the product pretty simple, in that there are no storylines or angles in the shows right now. I'm not a huge fan of enormous match write-ups, as I have neither the inclination to write them nor usually the time to read them in other people's diaries. So I looked for something that was a bit different, that I thought would make the fed I was doing that bit more interesting. Plus, I enjoy writing up my dynasty in that way and it helps me focus more on the product. If people like it, that's great. If people don't like it, then that's fine too, because there are plenty of other great diaries that will interest them more and deserve the attention. The great thing about the dynasties on the GDS boards is the variety...real world or CV, all the different promotions, styles and countries covered in them, and yes, the different ways they are presented. There are so many to choose from that I think any TEW fan would find at least one or two that suit them. I'm sure there's people who looked at my diary and were turned off by the graphics...just as there are probably others who never looked at it because it was CV...or because it was a British fed. Just as there'll be others that read it because of those very same things. If we were all the same, life would be very boring! :D

[sebsplex]

[QUOTE=Vitamin E;266351]The reason I post negative things in diaries is because I feel people can get more out of and can improve themselves more from "I didnt like these things: *insert detailed feedback" as opposed to "great show you got a reader!". It wouldnt be as bad if people went into more detail about stuff they like about a diary, either, and post more than "great show!" and stuff. Im not saying everyone does that, but theres a fair amount.[/QUOTE] I honestly do feel this is a valid point. Moving from the main point of more graphically based content, detailed feedback here can be rather hard to come by sometimes. Whilst it's nice to see people saying 'great show, you've got a reader', if someone really does feel like they've just read a great show, it shouldn't be hard to at least articulate a point or two about what made it great. Personally I think negative feedback has it's place as long as it's beyond the realms of just insulting the writer, acts as constructive and has some balance with positive feedback (assuming it's appropriate to the content) . It's far better than being petty and just hitting the one star thread rating with the veil of anonimity. On feedback in general, the problem always seems that there are far more people wanting feedback than are willing to give it. There are some writers on here that beat the feedback drum and haven't left a single comment in anyone else's thread, yet expect to be delluged with posts in return. It's a little like the ITC thread that popped up where about 3 people were willing to write articles, yet easily 20+ were asking for articles to be written on their diaries. Obviously this isn't your case, since you've already touched on how a lot of your feedback has been received, but if everyone took the 'ask and not give' approach, this would be a pretty dull forum. On the graphics front. I personally wouldn't dismiss a diary that used no additional graphic work if it proved a good read. On the other side of the coin, selective graphic work can really enhance a diary. I'm not convinced however that it goes as far as to make a poor diary well received on that basis alone. Unlike EWB, it does seem there is a greater audience here for brief write ups, even to the point where I've seen diaries with people literally just retyping the TEW generated notes. Again on the other side of the coin, there are plenty of thorough, well written diaries that have good readerships and good response rates. Of course there can be graphic overkill. Personally I don't need to see a Stone Cold Steve Austin pic for every single line he speaks, but if a writer is posting up shows consisting of about 20 lines of text and 45 pics, they usually disappear fairly quickly. It's like Remi posted however. Eyecandy attracts people and when coupled with strong writing and compelling work, they can enhance the overall product, but if the diary has decent longetivity and content, it will still be well followed.

[flamebrain]

It's all personal preference really isn't it? I don't think I use too many pictures in my diary, in fact I started off with none but thought I would include pictures for people competing in matches just to help anyone reading relate to it and also break it up a little and stop it looking like a phonebook. I've been using them for the diva search as well but that's just because the voting is dow to the people reading the diary. Nobody's said my pics are too much or too little (nobody's said much in any way actually... but still :)). I wouldn't be put off by lots of pictures or no pictures just in the same way I wouldn't think either made a diary "the best".

[shipshirt]

[QUOTE=sebsplex;266636]Personally I think negative feedback has it's place as long as it's beyond the realms of just insulting the writer, acts as constructive and has some balance with positive feedback (assuming it's appropriate to the content) . It's far better than being petty and just hitting the one star thread rating with the veil of anonimity. [/QUOTE] Completely. I think the problem comes in the terminology. "Negative feedback" isn't really what we're talking about. We're talking about "constructive criticism" which is completely different. The "I'm right and this is the way it has to be done" is only going to become white noise and get blocked out. Also, I don't know if I agree with the converse to this thread...that the detailed write-up of matches and shows somehow means it's good. If you can write in great detail and keep it interesting and snappy, then fantastic. If not then it's just as a bad as someone who throws up tons of graphics with nothing to back it up. Again, this is all my opinion. Your mileage will vary....

[Tigerkinney]

[quote=sebsplex;266636] Personally I don't need to see a Stone Cold Steve Austin pic for every single line he speaks, but if a writer is posting up shows consisting of about 20 lines of text and 45 pics, they usually disappear fairly quickly.[/quote] [I]Do you mean like this ?[/I] [CENTER][B]'Cos[/B] [B][IMG]http://s137.photobucket.com/albums/q236/Tigerkinney/th_StoneCold.jpg[/IMG][/B] [B]That's[/B] [B][IMG]http://s137.photobucket.com/albums/q236/Tigerkinney/th_StoneCold.jpg[/IMG][/B] [B]The[/B] [B][IMG]http://s137.photobucket.com/albums/q236/Tigerkinney/th_StoneCold.jpg[/IMG][/B] [B]Bottom[/B] [B][IMG]http://s137.photobucket.com/albums/q236/Tigerkinney/th_StoneCold.jpg[/IMG][/B] [B]Line[/B] [B][IMG]http://s137.photobucket.com/albums/q236/Tigerkinney/th_StoneCold.jpg[/IMG][/B] [B]'Cos[/B] [B][IMG]http://s137.photobucket.com/albums/q236/Tigerkinney/th_StoneCold.jpg[/IMG][/B] [B]Stone[/B] [B][IMG]http://s137.photobucket.com/albums/q236/Tigerkinney/th_StoneCold.jpg[/IMG][/B] [B]Cold[/B] [B][IMG]http://s137.photobucket.com/albums/q236/Tigerkinney/th_StoneCold.jpg[/IMG][/B] [B]Said[/B] [B][IMG]http://s137.photobucket.com/albums/q236/Tigerkinney/th_StoneCold.jpg[/IMG][/B] [B]So[/B] [B][IMG]http://s137.photobucket.com/albums/q236/Tigerkinney/th_StoneCold.jpg[/IMG][/B][/CENTER]

[flamebrain]

[CENTER]WHAT?! [IMG]http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k197/flamebrain101/Other/thStoneCold.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]

[trypio]

I think in the first place you should write your diaries for yourself, not with the main reason being "Wow, I hope someone says I did great.". So first of all you should have fun writing/making them. If you don't like to make/add graphics, don't do it. Why do something you don't like just to get attention or so. It's cool to know someone reads and likes your diary, but if they don't, too bad for them... I personally add graphics to my diaries because erm... my writing sucks and because I like messing around with photoshop. My shows would also look emty without them.

[panix04]

[QUOTE=trypio;266675]I think in the first place you should write your diaries for yourself, not with the main reason being "Wow, I hope someone says I did great.". So first of all you should have fun writing/making them. If you don't like to make/add graphics, don't do it. Why do something you don't like just to get attention or so. It's cool to know someone reads and likes your diary, but if they don't, too bad for them... I personally add graphics to my diaries because erm... my writing sucks and because I like messing around with photoshop. My shows would also look emty without them.[/QUOTE] a man after my own heart! :D

[shipshirt]

[QUOTE=trypio;266675]I think in the first place you should write your diaries for yourself, not with the main reason being "Wow, I hope someone says I did great.". So first of all you should have fun writing/making them. If you don't like to make/add graphics, don't do it. Why do something you don't like just to get attention or so. It's cool to know someone reads and likes your diary, but if they don't, too bad for them... I personally add graphics to my diaries because erm... my writing sucks and because I like messing around with photoshop. My shows would also look emty without them.[/QUOTE] Bravo sir! Well said. And Tigerkinney, that friggin' post almost made me spit my coffee out on my keyboard. That, and Panix new "location" makes me smile everytime I see it. mmm pictures....pretty.

[wrestlinggod]

That's why I love this place. You guys are priceless.

[Irish Wolf]

OK I actually tried to read everything. Let me start by saying I don't read real world diaries but if I did graphics might not be required because I know what they look like. So as Rem pointed out as a C-Verse reader I find that the graphics really help me see who is who. So I put in a show banner and the standard C-Verse headshot of whoever is in the match or angle. Truth be told when I first started writing diaries in 2004 TEW and in 2005 I had paragraphs long write ups with very little graphics and I got complaints that the write ups were to long to read. You have to find a very delicate balance between not enough information (although people who are just worried about the mechanics of the game like the Welcome to the Coastal Zone diary which has a lot of accliam) and so much that the reader gets overwhlemed (can't think of an example of hand). And also balnd diaries with no color or graphics and ones that are way too over the top. You always have exceptions to the rule though. Personally I htink Marcel Fromage's "Subscribe to the ROF Newsletter" is innovative. It's not just because it is an all graphics diary it's because it is somethign I can't remember anyone else here trying. And even though his write us are effectively just all one graphic he gets in the information we need about his shows as well as interesting things about his fed and the world at large. On too a slightly more personal note at least to the originator of this topic. I agree with what a lot of people have said. Everythign I've seen you say on this board has been negative. And this whole attack on people who use graphics seems to be becuase one person pissed you off about your own diary. Now I didn't read what he said but maybe if some one gets to you, you should take it up with them instead of getting all pissy at the rest of the board.

[mystic]

I put the graphics (wrestler pics) in mine because it helps break up text, and it may help people who don't know exactly who a wrestler is, that it. now do graphics make a diary better or worse, not really.

[Nevermore]

[QUOTE=flamebrain;266670][CENTER]WHAT?! [IMG]http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k197/flamebrain101/Other/thStoneCold.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER][/QUOTE] I love this forum! Quote The Raven Nevermore

[theoutlaw321]

[QUOTE=wrestlinggod;266683]That's why I love this place. You guys are priceless.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Nevermore;266707]I love this forum! Quote The Raven Nevermore[/QUOTE] LMAO!

[Marcel Fromage]

Thanks for the compliments, apu. :) Sebsplex made a great point about feedback, which certainly struck a chord with me. Having just started my first diary, I'm always hopeful of and thankful for a bit of feedback and yet it struck me all of a sudden how little I've personally fed back to diaries that I read on a regular basis (Scapino and eayragt sprang to mind as I read those religiously for 2005). Am definitely trying to change that! And yeah...it's good to see that this thread has brought out the usual light-hearted banter that makes this a great forum. Most people here can agree to disagree in the most polite way! :D

[markish]

I'm confused by this whole thread. I don't understand how someone can be seemingly offended by how other people react to fictional accounts of wrestling booking... Moreover, I'm confused by the OP's idea of a need for 'quality'... We're not entering this forum into a writing competition. If someone writes a diary that you personally don't like, it won't reflect badly on you. We're still not getting a silver trophy, one way or another. If someone wants to write a diary that has one line results and no characters OR images, but they enjoy doing it, why not let them? It's an extreme example, but if you don't like a diary, does it have any negative effect on you as a person? If it does, I worry... I started a diary here a while ago before I got real busy, and got feedback and discussion from sebsplex because I gave him feedback and discussion. If he, or anyone who read it, didn't enjoy it... Then fine... I hope I didn't cause them mental anguish or cost us the win in that imaginary writing competition... Your post is your opinion, and that's cool. But ease up a little, mebbe? Oh and one little thing: [QUOTE=Vitamin E;266351] Granted, people can do what they want with diaries, but at the same time some of the diaries should cut back on graphics. [/QUOTE] They can do what they want, but SHOULD do what you want? Got it...

[Monkeypox]

I write extravagantly long posts that feature both [b]huge blocks of undifferentiated text[/b] and [b]repetitive graphics of the "hey! Eddie Peak just said something! Post a picture![/b] variety, interspersed with [b]long unexplained delays[/b] and [b]self-indulgent meta posts[/b] that [b]reference Adam Ryland[/b] and [COLOR="Lime"][FONT="Century Gothic"][U]abuse the HTML options[/U][/FONT][/COLOR], although I can't manage enough consistency in my coding to [b]f up the same way twice![/b] And then there's the [b]damn boldfacing[/b]. And I'd be happy to cop to any of those bad characteristics, but as with the rest of us, they aren't pointed out. I didn't like this post insofar as it gripes (needlessly, I felt) about the ratio of graphics to text you say is common to the GDS boards. I will give your post this much credit - when it went up, I think every author on this board who uses graphics had a moment where they gulped and said "oh ***t, he's talking about me!" And then I spent the rest trying to figure out what a CX or MOO or whatever board is. Never did figure that one out. But I think this did provoke a lot of interesting discussion and reaction, especially in terms of how we do or do not receive negative feedback. The conclusion I drew? We all need to comment more, and say things besides "good show". I'm as guilty of that as anyone. So good conversation starter.

[shipshirt]

[QUOTE=Vitamin E;266351]A member here called The Ego posted in my diary just to say that my diary should add more graphics to shows as the way I had the shows dont add anything or somthing to that effect, which is asinine to believe the people really think a diary cant be good unless you use some sort of needless graphics. Rarely do I see anybody go "I didnt like..." or "I thought such and such was bad.", either. It's always "wow good job!" and all this other positive stuff. [/QUOTE] In rereading this post, I just noticed this contradiciton on VE's initial statement. At first he points out how a member's comment (one not saying good show but what he would like to see in his diary) angered him and then goes on in the very next sentence to say that no one ever says they didn't like something. That doesn't really make much sense. Unless you would like to see members give everyone else feedback and you didn't mean your diary?