Lesnar's Opponent Announced

[BlizzardVeers]

[QUOTE=xvnukervx;312818]Well its actually Joe Silva who puts these cards together but none the less, he does do a decent job. UNFORTUNATELY, once a year we seem to get these "spectacle" matches. 1.) Ken Shamrock Vs Tito Ortiz - Total mismatch. All the fans who have followed this sport saw the FIRST matchup as a total mismatch. But this match was put together to capture the attention of the 'public' who believed Ken Shamrock to be the baddest man on Earth. 2.) Royce Gracie vs Matt Hughes: What the hell were they thinking here? Again, this was a match put together for the casual fan who remembers Royce as the skinny dude who beat the crap out of a bunch tough dudes in the original UFC's. NEVERMIND the fact they had no training, NEVERMIND the fact that ANY one dimensional fighter is at a disadvantage against a JJ black belt. 3.) Brock Lesnar Vs Frank Mir : Do I need to even get into it again? I think the UFC would do just fine without booking these ridiculous spectacle bouts. :edit: I forgot to add ANYTHING tank abbott. What exactly was he doing in the UFC anyways? And the 30 seconds he lasted with Frank Mir was just embarassing.[/QUOTE] 1.) To be fair, the first fight was just a wee bit more competitive than the last 2. 3rd shouldn't have ever happened, and a lot of people said the 2nd one was called too soon. Not to mention, Ken had a decent competitive career in PRIDE. His match with Don Frye, for example. Otsuka, Fujita? ..not so much Sakuraba. Though, I suppose Ken has always done that bit when he gets beaten by a TKO/KO/Submission that "I didn't get KO'd! Bull****!" "What're you stopping it for, I'm okay! Bull****!" (Sakuraba/Tito) or "I didn't tap! Bull****" (Royce 1) 2.) They were thinking Royce would still be competitive after basically 6 years of inactivity at 40. Still disappointed with him about using steroids in the Sakuraba fight. That sort of defeats the purpose of beating Sakuraba. :\ Frank vs Tank = Because Tank had KO power then, and still does even with his beer belly? He's fun to watch. That's why he was put in with Mir. People know his name, despite what you may think Tank actually has a background in fighting other than, "Bar Brawlin". Exciting fighter. Has name value. Hm. Oh, we have this kid who's pretty exciting that we want to get over. Let's put him against that guy!

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=xvnukervx;312818]1.) Ken Shamrock Vs Tito Ortiz - Total mismatch. All the fans who have followed this sport saw the FIRST matchup as a total mismatch. But this match was put together to capture the attention of the 'public' who believed Ken Shamrock to be the baddest man on Earth.[/QUOTE] You make it sound like attracting the attention of the public is a bad thing. Actually, with the way you highlighted the word public, you it sound like [I]they[/I] are the bad thing! The Shamrock \ Ortiz rivalry did big numbers and probably brought in quite a few new fans, that's a good thing for MMA as a whole, regardless of how the match seems to purists.

[MightyDavidson]

What I don't get is how losing to Frank Mir would make Brock a joke? Surely it's no disgrace losing to a former champion? It's not like he got his butt kicked by a can or something, he'd just be one of the people who lost to Mir. Not the best way to start in the UFC sure but careers have recovered from worse.

[xvnukervx]

[QUOTE=Adam Ryland;312830]You make it sound like attracting the attention of the public is a bad thing. Actually, with the way you highlighted the word public, you it sound like [I]they[/I] are the bad thing! The Shamrock \ Ortiz rivalry did big numbers and probably brought in quite a few new fans, that's a good thing for MMA as a whole, regardless of how the match seems to purists.[/QUOTE] The public is a bad thing when they are not educated about the sport. Thats the BIGGEST problem the UFC is facing, is educating the newcomers. Problem is, when the masses start pouring in, the overall quality starts to become reduced. I mean back before the mainstream media covered MMA and it was the UFC in the US and PRIDE in japan, there were some MMA SUPERCARDS. I mean, matchups back to back on the same card that are like main event fights you will pay 40 bucks a piece for now a days. Matches like Brock Lesnar isn't about putting together a competitive intriguing fight that is going to do ANYTHING to the rankings, its about producing a cash cow for zuffa and milking her until it dies.

[xvnukervx]

[QUOTE=MightyDavidson;312855]What I don't get is how losing to Frank Mir would make Brock a joke? Surely it's no disgrace losing to a former champion? It's not like he got his butt kicked by a can or something, he'd just be one of the people who lost to Mir. Not the best way to start in the UFC sure but careers have recovered from worse.[/QUOTE] I didnt say BROCK was a joke I said this MATCHUP is a joke. I think Brock with the correct experience would do well in MMA. Throwing him to the wolves like this is completely wasting him.

[MightyDavidson]

[QUOTE=xvnukervx;312858]I didnt say BROCK was a joke I said this MATCHUP is a joke. I think Brock with the correct experience would do well in MMA. Throwing him to the wolves like this is completely wasting him.[/QUOTE] Ok fair enough. Misunderstood what you said (or perhaps thought you said something that somebody else did), my bad.

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=xvnukervx;312857]The public is a bad thing when they are not educated about the sport. [B]Thats the BIGGEST problem the UFC is facing[/B], is educating the newcomers. Problem is, when the masses start pouring in, the overall quality starts to become reduced. I mean back before the mainstream media covered MMA and it was the UFC in the US and PRIDE in japan, there were some MMA SUPERCARDS. I mean, matchups back to back on the same card that are like main event fights you will pay 40 bucks a piece for now a days.[/QUOTE] I don't agree with the bolded part of your statement, and I'd go so far as to say that the rest of your post actually makes the argument for me. By your own admission, the newcomers are essentially willing to pay more money for less quality - how does that translate into a problem for the UFC? That's a massively superior business model for them, as the transition from a small "elitist" fan base to a mainstream fan base almost always will be. If the rest of your argument is followed, then it isn't the UFC who are losing out, it's the (so called) elite \ "educated" fans.

[AlaskanHero]

[QUOTE=xvnukervx;312857]The public is a bad thing when they are not educated about the sport. Thats the BIGGEST problem the UFC is facing, is educating the newcomers. Problem is, when the masses start pouring in, the overall quality starts to become reduced. I mean back before the mainstream media covered MMA and it was the UFC in the US and PRIDE in japan, there were some MMA SUPERCARDS. I mean, matchups back to back on the same card that are like main event fights you will pay 40 bucks a piece for now a days. Matches like Brock Lesnar isn't about putting together a competitive intriguing fight that is going to do ANYTHING to the rankings, its about producing a cash cow for zuffa and milking her until it dies.[/QUOTE] Last I checked Zuffa and UFC were in business to make money. If putting Shamrock/Ortiz on a card makes them a lot of money and brings in lots of new fans, which results in even MORE money, why shouldn't they? Because it's not competitive? Maybe not to your MMA fan who knows something about both men and the sport itself (MMA Smarks?) but to John Q. IHaveMoneyToSpend, who doesn't follow the sport closely, but knows both men by name and reputation, it is a competitive match up. And that's sort of the same situation here. Brock Lesnar is such an unproven commodity, an unknown, that's it's really unfair to count him out so soon. Is he coasting on his little bit of fame? Yeah, probably. But it's not like he's some washed up NFL player (Oh wait...) who only has his fame and nothing else, the man is an athletic freak who's in his prime. And it's not like he's only been training for 6 months before getting tossed into a title match against, say, Tim Sylvia. He's been training for two years or so and if he's been training hard with the people he's supposedly trained with, then he should have enough skill so as not to get KTFO or TTFO in the first few seconds of the first round. Then you combine that with his natural abilities and strength and who knows, he may surprise the world. This year has been rather crazy with all the upsets (Gonzaga/Cro Cop, anyone?). And again, it's not like Brock is being thrown in there against *insert UFC's top, top Heavyweights here*, he's going against Frank Mir, who, according to what I've read on various forums, can come in ranging from anywhere between unimpressive to very dangerous. So basically what I'm trying to say is to not write Lesnar off in this match. At the very least, he has a puncher's chance. And if he fails miserably in his attempt to be an MMA fighter, he could always crawl back to Vince. He'd probably have to beg for forgiveness, but I think Vince would bring Brock back after he failed at MMA. At severely reduced pay of course.

[xvnukervx]

[QUOTE=The Franchise;312896]Last I checked Zuffa and UFC were in business to make money.[/QUOTE] You are absolutely correct. And its usually either money OR sport. Its very seldom you get both. Look at the current issues in the boxing world for a PRIME example of that. Pre-Zuffa was SPORT, todays UFC is all about money. And this is why we are seeing Lesnar fight Mir.

[ACCBiggz]

[QUOTE=Jim Force;312794]Gracie and Sherk are both known as clean fighters who would NEVER be involved with illegal performance enhancing drugs so at least we know that Lesnar has turned aside from his old ways of steroid abuse and adopted a new healthy lifestyle of clean living...oh wait a minute...[/QUOTE] That has nothing to do with their abilites and/or MMA knowledge. Steroids are overrated by the media to begin with and Brock was clean during his first fight and looked obviously slimmed down from his WWE days. [QUOTE]And ACCBiggz, you said something that made me grin a bit. In regards to Antoni Hardonk "What? And whoever thought that has mental problems and should never be trusted with anything, might have been the easiest prediction in a long time." On Lesnar "You can't write off anyone at this level."[/QUOTE] Caught me in the ol' catch-22. That definatly makes it seem I wrote him off, but most fights similar to me predicting GSP/Serra it was, "GSP will take this fight, he'll win, unless he gets caught," where he'll win unless that one thing happens. Much like this, imo, was all Mir unless Hardonk caught him which I didn't see happening. 77 seconds later my point was proven... lol, unlike Serra shocking me by not subbing GSP rather, KO'ing him. [QUOTE]Antoni Hardonk is a decent standup fighter with a less than stellar record in MMA and in K-1.[/QUOTE] To me, Mir has a less than stellar record as well. Who are his big wins? Sylvia? That was done by an injury, sure it was an armbar, but it broke his forearm when Sylvia about had it pulled out, but I'll give Mir that one because it was locked in just not all the way, but however it works it works. Outside of that is it Tank Abbott? The controversial decision win over Dan Christison? Pete Williams? Or what about Wes Sims? Heck even in the Wes Sims bout, Sims got Mir on his back... granted soon after he booted him in the face and got DQ'd, but that's just semantics, >_>. This is a more even match-up than a lot give credit for, and some are still saying Brock is a sideshow. He's dedicated himself to full time training for quite some time already, is focusing on boxing, kickboxing, and jiu-jitsu, and I'm sure in training he's training for the worst positions and how to defend them. I find nothing wrong with this match-up, regardless of how long it'll last. The length of a fight won't say anything about that, if it does take little time for Mir to sub him that will just show he has a big whole in his game, not unlike many still fighting in the UFC. More toward February I'll narrow down my prediction, but right now I'm kind of split of how it will go.

[Blackman]

Lesnar in the UFC????? (kill me for my ignorance :D ) This I gotta see. He'll prolly get his a$$ handed to him, but still...

[djthefunkchris]

[QUOTE=xvnukervx;312901]You are absolutely correct. And its usually either money OR sport. Its very seldom you get both. Look at the current issues in the boxing world for a PRIME example of that. Pre-Zuffa was SPORT, todays UFC is all about money. And this is why we are seeing Lesnar fight Mir.[/QUOTE] Boxing right now, is in a decline mainly for not having "PUBLIC" people in place. Their is still very competitive individuals that are very into the sport itself. People like Ali, Tyson, Sugar Ray, etc.. All had a bit of flair for the public eye to see. Reguardless that they were great, they were also very charismatic. Right now you don't see much in that way, and is why Boxing is in the decline it is today. Right now, Boxing could use a "Brock Lesnar" type to come in and excite fans. I dissagree with it hurting the sport in any way. Bringing in more people that wouldn't normally care to watch the sport, let alone buy a seat, is a "Good" thing.

[xvnukervx]

[QUOTE=djthefunkchris;313401]Boxing right now, is in a decline mainly for not having "PUBLIC" people in place. Their is still very competitive individuals that are very into the sport itself. People like Ali, Tyson, Sugar Ray, etc.. All had a bit of flair for the public eye to see. Reguardless that they were great, they were also very charismatic. Right now you don't see much in that way, and is why Boxing is in the decline it is today. Right now, Boxing could use a "Brock Lesnar" type to come in and excite fans. I dissagree with it hurting the sport in any way. Bringing in more people that wouldn't normally care to watch the sport, let alone buy a seat, is a "Good" thing.[/QUOTE] Its a good thing for Zuffa. Not the sport

[xvnukervx]

[QUOTE=Adam Ryland;312893]I don't agree with the bolded part of your statement, and I'd go so far as to say that the rest of your post actually makes the argument for me. By your own admission, the newcomers are essentially willing to pay more money for less quality - how does that translate into a problem for the UFC? That's a massively superior business model for them, as the transition from a small "elitist" fan base to a mainstream fan base almost always will be. If the rest of your argument is followed, then it isn't the UFC who are losing out, it's the (so called) elite \ "educated" fans.[/QUOTE] Your argument is correct. But in the long run all fans become "elitist" (LOL, that term just seems....wrong somehow, but I'll use it) so by shortchanging people today, they are actually HURTING the sport tommorrow. I think what Zuffa is damaging is the sports longevity, not hurting it in the short term. They are doing what they need to do to make money TODAY, hence my complaint. Zuffa could care less what the state of MMA is 25 years from now.

[djthefunkchris]

You know... I hope Lesnar wins just to upset everyone's thoughts.. Including mine. It would be a pleasant surprise to me I think.

[BlizzardVeers]

Well, this goes against many elite MMA fan's point of view but. I think Lesnar winning might give more credibilty to just the 'tough' guy. People discredit Tank, but he's a legitimate tough guy. And even in this sport, a sheer lucky punch from a tough guy can win him the fight. Fans need to realize that just because someone is not from what they would consider a "legitimate" background does not make them any less of a tough guy. Would any of you really be surprised to see someone like Bob Holly, Dave Finlay, John Bradshaw, or even Vader go into MMA if it had been around when they were first coming up? A tough guy is a tough guy. Lesnar is a tough guy. I think Mir is a tough guy with skill though. I bet on Mir, though I don't say that Lesnar has no chance.

[BlizzardVeers]

[url]http://www.mmafightline.com/news/2007/116/ufc_307518.shtml[/url] Interview from Frank Mir on fighting Lesnar. Mir is a cool guy. :D

[ACCBiggz]

[QUOTE=BlizzardVeers;313444]A tough guy is a tough guy. Lesnar is a tough guy. I think Mir is a tough guy with skill though. I bet on Mir, though I don't say that Lesnar has no chance.[/QUOTE] Lesnar is also a "tough guy with skill". To what extent his skills are at right now we don't know. We haven't seen him defend any jiu-jitsu or stand toe-to-toe yet, so any speculation of that from others to write him off is wrong of them. The fact that for nearly two years he'll have trained in other areas of MMA, as well with his amatuer wrestling background, means he has talent, it's to what point is that talent devoloped. I've heard from many of the people that have trained with him that he is impressive at the pace he learns at and the drive he has for this. If I were Joe Silva I would have personally picked Hardonk or Eddie Sanchez for his first fight to "ease him in" so-to-speak. But I do think Mir is a great challenge for him and will be a test for where Brock is at this time.

[AlaskanHero]

After reading a post by someone on another message board, I think putting Brock in there against Mir was a pretty good idea. If Brock was put in there with a can and lost, that would pretty much kill him dead. But you match him up against Mir and if he loses, he can be "protected" much better.

[still71]

people are giving Frank Mir way too much credit these days. Mir is a shell of the fighter he was before the accident. To me he's a paper opponent for Lesnar. A guy who used to be tough, but hasn't done much in a long time. For Mir, this is a must win - if he loses to baby Brock, he loses even more cred.