Israel continues shelling Gaza

[The Two]

I don't know if I'm gonna get into trouble for talking politics here, but I need somewhere to talk about this.

 

This has to stop. I can't comprehend how Israel doesn't get it. In fact I have to conclude that they do get it, and just don't care. There's an election coming in Israel and nothing serves the incumbent better than starting a war and firing up the militants.

 

Israel warned of its intentions the day before the bombardment began, and Hamas responded with a warning that an assault upon Gaza would "open the gates of hell" and that Israel would "weep tears of blood." That isn't an empty threat, the Palestinians cannot go toe-to-toe with the Israeli military. It would be different if this was a fair fight, but it isn't even close. Israel is a nuclear power (shhhhh! don't tell anyone) they get billions in "military aid" from the US. The Palestinians can't fight them straight on, so they hit and run, they throw rocks, they launch home made rockets. Now Israel is shelling the **** out of Gaza with their state of the art war planes, and say they won't stop until militants stop launching rockets into Israel.

 

Well, funnily enough, bombarding Gaza and slaughtering their wives and children just lights a fire under everybody with militant sympathies and they will respond with more rocket fire. Understand: they are launching more rockets by way of FIGHTING BACK. That's the only way they can.

 

Now the Israeli Defence Minister has declared this is now an "all out war" after one Israeli was killed by a rocket. ONE! They declare "war until the bitter end" for ONE casualty and wonder why there are dozens of rockets being fired into Israel after they've killed more than 300 Palestinian civilians! THREE HUNDRED+ : ONE.

 

Israel says it is targetting Hamas, but if you listen to the list of targets you will notice that most are Government buildings. Of course, because Hamas are the democratically elected government of Gaza. You know, a democratically elected government, chosen by the people. I thought we cared about that. I could have sworn we were fighting two wars on foreign lands to "spread democracy". I thought the will of the people was sovereign, unquestionable. Yet now Israel is basically trying to depose a democratically elected government, and we don't care! The unfortunate truth is that in a democracy, sometimes the other guy wins. Sometimes the people get it wrong. Ask Al Gore. Ask John Kerry.

 

There has been six months of peace. For six months Hamas has stopped the rockets and fought to stop other militias firing rockets (the truth is that it is impossible for them to stop everybody, only takes one idiot to ignore them). Yet Israel gave them nothing! Israel has laid siege to Gaza, cut off their supplies, closed the borders, ever since Hamas was DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED. Gaza is a de facto urban prison. A Ghetto. Yet for six months they did what they were asked, they kept the ceasefire, but Israel did not keep their word, they didn't open the borders, they didn't let them bring in supplies.

 

For once lets stop focusing on the results, and consider the root causes, because that is the only way this will ever be solved. For as long as Israel occupies Palestine, for as long as they steal land, and build illegal settlements, and steal land with their prison wall, there will be anger within Palestine directed towards them. There will be militants with a grudge.

 

You cannot beat these people into submission. They're trying that right now, and Hamas is responding by proposing a Third Intifada. That's not good for anybody.

 

Israel needs to sit down and talk. Talk with Fata, talk with Hamas, do whatever it takes to reach a fair settlement. It won't be easy. There will be always be some extremists who hold out longer, who continue to use rockets, but that's the way it always is. Israel is the stronger power, and in these situations it is always the stronger party who has to take the last few hits before all the hitting stops.

 

If this doesn't stop soon, a new Intifada will begin and we'll be back where we were years ago with all out war and suicide bombings. That will not be good for anybody.

[CQI13]

<p>What are both sides' claims to the land?</p><p> </p><p>

And who said anything about being fair? The Indians were decimated by the Europeans. Not really fair, but it was to our benefit. No one seems alarmed over that.</p><p> </p><p>

As an aside, only Gore should be included in that list, and even that is debatable. Kerry lost the popular vote and the electoral college in his election. And if the Democrats had the power in FL, they would have given Gore the election.</p>

[darthsiddus2]

<p>BZZZZZT WRONG! does the fact that isreal is defending itself from the Hamass rocket attacks mean nothing to you? wow I can't believe some people still think that. how would you like it if your constantly shelled 24/7 like the border towns in Israel are. do you realize that Hammas HIDES BEHIND CIVILIANS? don't you realize that's how that terrorist group gets their people? those supposedly government buildings are used for launching pads. its a farce! </p><p> </p><p>

Isreal DID keep their word. you have to remember its abbas's government that's legitimate. NOT hammas's government. what the hell do you mean occupy palestine? the entire AREA of Israel and the ares of the current Palestinians are Palestine. the only way the middle east will have peace is when the entire arab world accepts the fact that Israel exists and renounces violence. once the rocket attacks stop Israel will stop the offensive.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>

I'm sorry but this is WAY too personal of an argument for me.</p>

[CQI13]

<p>I remember seeing a thing on TV where Palestinian children are taught from an early age to hate Israel, to the point that Israel is not even acknowledged on a map? </p><p> </p><p>

I tend to agree with darth, the big headlines come from when a legitimate attack harms civilians because the terrorists hide there. (i.e. Mosques, schools, hospitals)</p>

[darthsiddus2]

you are correct. the wahaabi (the extremists) teach their children at a very early age that Israel doesn't exist.

[shamelessposer]

The Palestinians, as a group, are not moustache-twirling bad guys who eat Israeli babies for breakfast every morning. The Israelis, as a group, are not innocent victims acting entirely out of self preservation. The killing is going to continue until it's no longer profitable or politically expedient for the higher-ups on either side to continue the hostilities.

[darthsiddus2]

<p>so you don't think Israel has the right to defend itself? Don't get me wrong I don't condone the violence in fact I condemn it. there certainly was a better way for each party to co-exist but instead Hammas continues to provoke Israel into action while the Palestinians suffer for it. you can only take so many things before you erupt and that's what's happening here.</p><p> </p><p>

I am deeply offended by the lack of understanding here.</p>

[infinitywpi]

<p>Both sides are wrong.</p><p> </p><p>

C'mon, people. It's violence in the middle east. Been happening for millenia, will keep happening for millenia, wether there's a good reason for it or not.</p><p> </p><p>

Both sides have a right to exist safely; neither side has the right to kill the other, and both sides refuse to realize that.</p>

[darthsiddus2]

<p>WRONG!</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>

Hammas, Hezbolla, Islamic Jihad refuse to realize this. Rabin and Arafat both realized this.</p>

[The Two]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="darthsiddus2" data-cite="darthsiddus2" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="20904" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>BZZZZZT WRONG! does the fact that isreal is defending itself from the Hamass rocket attacks mean nothing to you? wow I can't believe some people still think that. how would you like it if your constantly shelled 24/7 like the border towns in Israel are.</div></blockquote><p> My point is that launching a mass assault of this sort does nothing to protect Israel and, in fact, just makes it more vulnerable. There has been six months of quiet without rocket attacks, there were a few following the end of the ceasefire, but this kind of bombardment just causes escalation.</p><p> </p><p> This is constantly the problem with Israeli policy, it provokes escalation. A small Palestinian attack is followed by massive collective punishment - bombing and shelling - which inevitably kills many civilians, which leads to militants firing more rockets, which leads to heavier shelling, more civilian casualties, and then further rocket attacks in retaliation. This has been going on for years!</p><p> </p><p> Shelling the **** out of Gaza will not stop rocket attacks. It will never solve the problem of militants attacking Israel, it will only give them more reason to hate, more to avenge, more grudges to hold. You know what will stop it? Negotiation. A fair division of land. An end to the occupation.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="darthsiddus2" data-cite="darthsiddus2" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="20904" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>do you realize that Hammas HIDES BEHIND CIVILIANS? don't you realize that's how that terrorist group gets their people? those supposedly government buildings are used for launching pads. its a farce!</div></blockquote><p> I realise that Gaza is about the most densely populated places on earth. I also realise that Hamas is far from innocent in all this, but at the same time there is more to them than the military wing. The political wing has been doing their best to govern Gaza for the last 18 months. They were elected, not because of the militants, but because of their provision of social services.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="darthsiddus2" data-cite="darthsiddus2" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="20904" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Isreal DID keep their word. you have to remember its abbas's government that's legitimate. NOT hammas's government.</div></blockquote><p> Sorry, but both governments are legitimate. Both were democratically elected. Abbas is the elected President of all the Palestinian Territories. Hamas are the democratically elected government of the West Bank. Think of it as the difference between Federal and State government.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="darthsiddus2" data-cite="darthsiddus2" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="20904" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>what the hell do you mean occupy palestine? the entire AREA of Israel and the ares of the current Palestinians are Palestine.</div></blockquote><p> Wrong. The entire area of Israel and Palestine WAS Palestine, until 1948 when the State of Israel was declared on Palestinian land. <em>'The bride is beautiful, but she is already married.'</em> You may notice that Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem are not part of Israel, they are Occupied Territories. They are land illegally held by the State of Israel. That land does not belong to them. There are scores of UN Resolutions instructing Israel to withdraw from the Occupied Territories and have ignored every one of them.</p><p> </p><p> Israel continues building settlements on land held illegally, attempting to claim the territory by placing as many Israelis as possible on the land. Yet still, it is not theirs. The "security wall" is being used to forcibly annex more land. Until Palestine is a sovereign state, until Israel withdraws its forces, until they surrender land that does not belong to them, this problem will persist.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="darthsiddus2" data-cite="darthsiddus2" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="20904" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The only way the middle east will have peace is when the entire arab world accepts the fact that Israel exists and renounces violence. once the rocket attacks stop Israel will stop the offensive.</div></blockquote><p> Yes, that is an important step, but I think the vast majority of the Arab world have accepted Israel as a fact of life. Including the Palestinians. Now they're just bartering for the land they are entitled to.</p><p> </p><p> As I keep saying, the Israeli offensive only provokes further rockets. The offensive must stop for the rocket attacks to stop.</p>

[darthsiddus2]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="The Two" data-cite="The Two" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="20904" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>My point is that launching a mass assault of this sort does nothing to protect Israel and, in fact, just makes it more vulnerable. There has been six months of quiet without rocket attacks, there were a few following the end of the ceasefire, but this kind of bombardment just causes escalation.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I agreed with you there</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="The Two" data-cite="The Two" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="20904" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>This is constantly the problem with Israeli policy, it provokes escalation. A small Palestinian attack is followed by massive collective punishment - bombing and shelling - which inevitably kills many civilians, which leads to militants firing more rockets, which leads to heavier shelling, more civilian casualties, and then further rocket attacks in retaliation. This has been going on for years!</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I also agree with you there. two wrongs do not make a right. both sides refuse to acknowledge that. </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="The Two" data-cite="The Two" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="20904" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Shelling the **** out of Gaza will not stop rocket attacks. It will never solve the problem of militants attacking Israel, it will only give them more reason to hate, more to avenge, more grudges to hold. You know what will stop it? Negotiation. A fair division of land. An end to the occupation.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Rabin and Arafat both realized this as well untill some moron assassinated Rabin. and what do you propose is a fair division of land? Israel will not leave the golan hights due to its strategic value nor will it withdraw from Jerusalem.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="The Two" data-cite="The Two" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="20904" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I realise that Gaza is about the most densely populated places on earth. I also realise that Hamas is far from innocent in all this, but at the same time there is more to them than the military wing. The political wing has been doing their best to govern Gaza for the last 18 months. They were elected, not because of the militants, but because of their provision of social services.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> which in turn creates more militants. if they desolved the militant wing then they can co-exists. but the fact that the extremists there do not seem to get it through their heads thats a problem for both sides. Hammas also needs to recognize Israel too before negotiations can continue.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="The Two" data-cite="The Two" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="20904" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Sorry, but both governments are legitimate. Both were democratically elected. Abbas is the elected President of all the Palestinian Territories. Hamas are the democratically elected government of the West Bank. Think of it as the difference between Federal and State government.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> the rest of the world does not ackowledge the Hammas government. they are not legitimate. they took the west bank by force. that's not the way a democratic government is run.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="The Two" data-cite="The Two" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="20904" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Wrong. The entire area of Israel and Palestine WAS Palestine, until 1948 when the State of Israel was declared on Palestinian land. <em>'The bride is beautiful, but she is already married.'</em> You may notice that Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem are not part of Israel, they are Occupied Territories. They are land illegally held by the State of Israel. That land does not belong to them. There are scores of UN Resolutions instructing Israel to withdraw from the Occupied Territories and have ignored every one of them..</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> wrong again. the country was called Palestine when the Brits colonized Israel. the lands are not occupied terrirotes. they were earned.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="The Two" data-cite="The Two" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="20904" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Israel continues building settlements on land held illegally, attempting to claim the territory by placing as many Israelis as possible on the land. Yet still, it is not theirs. The "security wall" is being used to forcibly annex more land. Until Palestine is a sovereign state, until Israel withdraws its forces, until they surrender land that does not belong to them, this problem will persist.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> again what do you propose the land of ISRAEL should be? </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> QUOTE=The Two;548923]Yes, that is an important step, but I think the vast majority of the Arab world have accepted Israel as a fact of life. Including the Palestinians. Now they're just bartering for the land they are entitled to.</p><p> </p><p> Israel is a fact. not a myth as you would believe. the arab world did not like it when Israel declared independence. from the UK and they never will. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> QUOTE=The Two;548923]As I keep saying, the Israeli offensive only provokes further rockets. The offensive must stop for the rocket attacks to stop.</p><p> </p><p> wrong. the rockets must stop before Israel stops. then again that's the same thing like which comes first the chicken or the egg?</p>