GatorBait19 Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/trainingcamp09/news/story?id=4412908 (read the bottom about Andre Smith) Andre Smith is a LT out of Bama, and many believed he should have been one of the top two picks, but then being suspended before the sugar bowl, and then walking out of the combine, and then firing your agent, and then posting some of the worse skills set numbers at your position hasn't helped him But this took the cake, he sits there and tells people I want to fix my imagine and that he wants to be there in camp, but he is still complaining about money and he is losing out on a tremendous amount of training camp (we're talking about practice) thank A.I I truly believe it is time that the NFL fixes it's cap structure when it comes to rookies, Stafford making 42 mill guaranteed is outrages And I know some of you are going to say "Oh well the owners wanted them, and this and that" I am not talking about what the owners want, I'm sure Portland really wanted Greg Oden, but also they didn't have to worry about him holding out for a big contract (just injuries) NBA has a great system and I believe the NFL and possibly the MLB should adopt it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GruntMark Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 First... I think there should be a rookie tier system or whatever that determines them a fair wage, and that they are locked into. That'd be great. That said, I have little sympathy for these situations. You can talk about player greed and agent greed, but the buck stops with the owners. They are the ones holding the checkbooks and as the only people who truly set the demand for football athletes, they are the ones who have let the situation get as crazy as it has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CQI13 Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 What happens if they aren't signed? Obviously the team wasted a pick, but no harm right? Let them sit out. See how many teams pick them next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACCBiggz Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 Everyone wants a Rookie Salary Cap and they've all been vocal about it, the problem is the CBA. That's the first and foremost attention of everyone so it will not get done this year. If they complete a CBA then it's possible we could have one in two years time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GatorBait19 Posted August 21, 2009 Author Share Posted August 21, 2009 I agree Biggz, what I have been hearing is the vets want a rookie system (both MLB and NFL) why.... well because then that money can go to them, but still they do want it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slack Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 <p>I think a Two-year with a team option year three for first and second rounders and a one year with team option for two years. </p><p> </p><p> This works for the team by giving them a set contract to get guys in camp, and it helps the rookies b/c they can get their big payday in year three, and possibly again in year seven.</p><p> </p><p> I know that is basically the NBA but I think window for big paydays should be year 3-5 for NFL players.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisen-verse Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 <p>I agree that a Rookie pay scale NEEDS to be implemented. However, I suppose those who appose it have their case as well. Unlike the NBA, Football is a very violent sport. You could literally lose your career, as well as potentially your quality of life (or life in general), on any given play. Therefore, most who favor the current system would just say... "We need to get paid now or risk the chance of never making an income in the NFL."</p><p> </p><p> With that being said... I think the overall way in which NFL contracts for rookies are laid out right now is absolutely ridiculous. Tell me why someone like Mathew Stafford should be making more guaranteed money than someone like Peyton Manning or Tom Brady? Sure, he could go on to be a great QB... But... He isn't any better than those two at this given point.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BHK1978 Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="24272" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I agree that a Rookie pay scale NEEDS to be implemented. However, I suppose those who appose it have their case as well. Unlike the NBA, Football is a very violent sport. You could literally lose your career, as well as potentially your quality of life (or life in general), on any given play. Therefore, most who favor the current system would just say... "We need to get paid now or risk the chance of never making an income in the NFL."</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yeah the average NFL career lasts something like 3 seasons. So I can understand the want to get paid now way of thinking.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remianen Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="GatorBait19" data-cite="GatorBait19" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="24272" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>And I know some of you are going to say "Oh well the owners wanted them, and this and that" I am not talking about what the owners want, I'm sure Portland really wanted Greg Oden, but also they didn't have to worry about him holding out for a big contract (just injuries) NBA has a great system and I believe the NFL and possibly the MLB should adopt it</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Don't bring MLB into it. People always seem to forget that most players don't go from draft pick to the majors immediately. After proving yourself for 2+ years in the minors, enough to warrant a call-up and significant playing time, trying to impose a scale would be a slap in the face. And don't bring up signing bonuses for draft picks. There's nothing forcing owners to give in to the Scott Boras types. Not a thing. Considering the fail rate on high draft picks in baseball and how much value lower picks traditionally provide (quick! What round was Albert Pujols taken in? The 13th!), paying through the nose for an unproven player (who is most likely a year or two from the majors, <strong><em>at best</em></strong>) is what you get for being stupid. Nah, MLB is fine. Other than teams paying millions for utility players with (poop) for bats or offensive output, baseball is close to ideal.</p><p> </p><p> A rookie pay scale is probably going to be a major part of the next CBA. DeMaurice is beholden to the veterans who got him his job and he has no reason to push back against capping rookie pay. But, I think they'll try to play it close to the vest because it's a measure that, on the surface, benefits the owners far more than the players. That's even assuming there's a salary cap at all (it's not a slam dunk and many of the players don't want it anymore). I have to admit it was kinda fun in the pre-cap days to see teams outright court high end free agents (see Deion Sanders, for an example) like a guy trying to impress a woman. Remember those 49er teams that stockpiled talent by deferring most of their contracts' money at the back end (until the NFL outlawed that)? Then they exploited the signing bonus proration and Eddie DeBartolo bankrupted himself paying people upfront? That was awesome! <img alt=":p" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/tongue.png.ceb643b2956793497cef30b0e944be28.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p><p> </p><p> Andre Smith is a bust. Only the Bengals would take him that high. Is it any wonder they're a **** team? The only reason people even acknowledge their existence is because of the drama that always surrounds Ocho Cinco. Then when someone offers them WAY too much for him, they turn the deal down. Look at all the players the Bengals passed on to take Andre's fat, lazy ass. You mean to tell me they couldn't find any use for any of those players? They couldn't have traded out of that slot and gotten more picks out of it? You have this player who plays probably the highest profile position in the lowest profile position grouping (let's face it, the only O-lineman most fans care or know about is the left tackle with a righthanded quarterback), trying to get Orlando Pace/Walter Jones/Jonathan Ogden-in-their-prime money when he can't even show up for major events (and the combine is a major event for draft hopefuls). Did you see his pro day? God, I hope not. Women pay big money to get boobs like his.</p><p> </p><p> In the end, I don't think a rookie pay scale is going to find its way into the next CBA. The vets want it, sure, but most of the highest profile players don't (or they're ambivalent, at best). Given how short a typical NFL career is, you can't make any comparison to the NBA. None. A person who doesn't make it in the NBA can go make TALL dollars (or Euro) in EuroLeague play or Greece or Spain or wherever else. NFL player plays here or he probably doesn't play (remember the CFL has rules regarding foreign players and don't judge/value players like the NFL does). Do you know that the per team salary cap in the CFL is less than some BACKUPS make in the NFL? You think an Aaron Maybin or Andre Smith is going to accept 250 grand just so they can play? </p><p> </p><p> Teams need to go back to the future. Remember the escalator clause? The cap made those obsolete (because you can't predict exactly how much a player will get paid in say, year 3) but they can still work within the confines of the cap. If the salary cap is in the next CBA, they really need to tweak the rules somewhat. For example, a big part of NBA contracts involves voidable years due to player performance. Isn't that why LeBron's hitting the market next year? He voided the last two years of his old, max-at-the-time contract. Can't do that with a hard cap (NBA's cap is soft, NFL's is hard). If you want a rookie pay scale, you're going to have to allow void clauses. Team options suck for the player so those have to go too (or be so ridiculously high that it's the same as a void anyway).</p><p> </p><p> But GruntMark is right. Don't hate the player, hate the game. I just hate the player because they're shooting themselves in the foot. Your first training camp is EXTREMELY important. Starting in the NFL late leads to poor performance which leads to fans thinking you're overpaid/overrated, which leads to your second year being like your rookie year. Morons.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickC13573 Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 I mean, I kinda agree with you guys, but let me try and play devil's advocate. What if Andre doesn't have anything to do with his contract (I know, probly BS) and its his agent who basically told him to just keep practicing and he would get his deal done and not worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GatorBait19 Posted September 1, 2009 Author Share Posted September 1, 2009 I guess Karma is real. Andre Smith signs a huge deal 6 years 40 something million and 21 guaranteed. Less than 3 days later he fractures his right foot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remianen Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 I guess Karma is real. Andre Smith signs a huge deal 6 years 40 something million and 21 guaranteed. Less than 3 days later he fractures his right foot That's not karma. That's the Bengals. How many games did their 'defensive stalwart' Keith Rivers play before Hines Ward (a RECEIVER ffs) knocked him into next season? The Bengals, over the last 5 years, have let proven, quality O-linemen walk because they don't want to pay them. So it makes perfect sense they'd draft a moron and throw money at him, even though he hasn't done a damn thing. The road to mediocrity (the place the Bengals reside) is paved with failed high O-linemen (from Tony Mandarich to Robert Gallery and on and on and on). I kinda think that 6 year, 40 mil deal would've been better served on Stacy Andrews than Andre Smith. You keep Stacy on board and you can skip Smith, draft Crabtree or DHB or trade down for more picks and add more talent to a team bereft of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthsiddus2 Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 speaking of crabtree how f*cked up is that? he's probably gonna hold out the entire season and (if there is a next season) enter the draft as most likely a 3rd rounder due to his attitude. Singletary is better off without him I think. but a lot of people will most likely disagree with me on that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickC13573 Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 speaking of crabtree how f*cked up is that? he's probably gonna hold out the entire season and (if there is a next season) enter the draft as most likely a 3rd rounder due to his attitude. Singletary is better off without him I think. but a lot of people will most likely disagree with me on that i disagree that you think people will disagree. I agree with you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CQI13 Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 I do disagree. I don't think he'd be in the first 3 rounds. Everyone saw what 1 year away from football did to (former USC WR) Mike Williams. You think a team would be dumb enough to go after Crabtree given that and the stunt he's trying to pull? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthsiddus2 Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Crabtree has tremendous upside which will put him in the 3rd round. a lot of teams will stay away from his attitude but he'll still be a quality pick if given the right mentoring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GatorBait19 Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 Dude Al Davis or Jerry Jones or Dan Synder would so go for him in the 1st round Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remianen Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 You think a team would be dumb enough to go after Crabtree given that and the stunt he's trying to pull? Yes. Didn't Andre Smith teach yall nothing? The man skipped the Combine, fired 2-3 agents, had a horrific pro day, and still was drafted where? Dude Al Davis or Jerry Jones or Dan Synder would so go for him in the 1st round Al Davis especially. Jones & Snyder have personnel people that they listen to. Al Davis listens to no one but freakin' SportsCenter. If conventional wisdom has a player rated as a third rounder, Al Davis probably sees him as a top 3 pick (yes, he's that out of touch). Remember, this is the same guy who made a CORNERBACK the highest paid player in the NFL. A CORNER. Hell, that's my position and I'll be the first to tell you it's not THAT important. I'm not saying Nnamdi isn't good (he's the best in the league) but he doesn't create turnovers and all he does really is lock down a part of the field. He can only cover one person per play and corners aren't typically disruptive (aside from the occasional blitz). That deal is going to screw up everything over the next two years. If Nnamdi is worth that much, how much is Shawne Merriman worth? How much is DeMarcus Ware worth? How much is Anquan Boldin worth? Al Davis would take Crabtree first overall if he wound up in the 2010 draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CQI13 Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 At least Andre Smith hadn't been out of football for a year. And given that the Cryptkeeper is still in charge of the Raiders, he probably would take him. Still, hopefully he sits out and the Niners pick him up again in Rd 4 next year. I'd love to see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris caulfield Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 At least Andre Smith hadn't been out of football for a year. And given that the Cryptkeeper is still in charge of the Raiders, he probably would take him. Still, hopefully he sits out and the Niners pick him up again in Rd 4 next year. I'd love to see that. That would be a great scenario to see play out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GatorBait19 Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 Good point CQ let's look at Crabtree's logic in this development Remember I am thinking as him "Hmm, Todd McShay, that other guy with his big board and pretty much every scout believes I am probably the best athlete in the draft this year." Okay draft day. "Man I look good in this suit, What Stafford over me? Come on Johnson and I would have been great together! Okay whatever Rams need me, no Holt or Bruce, what a guy from Baylor come on, we destroyed them this year come on" I then take a drink of my water and make sure I still look fresh "Okay so the Chiefs, Seahawks, Jets, and Bengals all passed me over no way Raiders do." Goodell comes to the podium "With the 7th pick in the draft the Raiders take Darrius Heyward-Bay WR from Maryland" "Who is that?" I say to the response from my father of "Some kid from Maryland I guess" "Man but he isn't Crabtree!" Finally "With the 10 pick the 49ers take me, that's right TO, Rice eat my shorts" Then we get to the start of training camp "What do you mean you only gonna pay me like the 10th pick, that Bay guy got like 31 million guaranteed! I am the best player" Scot McCloughan (GM for the 9ers) "Yes but you were drafted 10th, which means 9 people are better" "Well I'm not signing!" Scot response with "Man I don't know where the Browns got this whole image of you being a drama queen from" A couple weeks later sitting with my agent we talk about not signing and reentering the draft "Man I ain't signing; I'll just reenter the draft next year!" David Wells (his agent) "Yeah that's smart Mike, I mean their only offering 25 million guaranteed, so let's do it your way and next year we will get drafted later sign a 3 year deal for like I don't know maybe 1 million a year! "Yeah that's brilliant!" Check and Mate Crabtree wins Mean while is his cave in a far off place Drew Rosenhaus smirks "Man this kid is an idiot!" http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s33/flyygrl_22/PH2007122901578.jpg Man don't they know I can play QB to, Percy who. Hell I'll start at QB, RB, WR, and CB all at the same time, I'm better than Lebron, I'm a baller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt. Lucrativo Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Al Davis would take Crabtree first overall if he wound up in the 2010 draft. Not sure about that given that Al passed on him at 7 to take DHB in 2009. Crabtree's never going to run a 4.3 40, so he's about as far from the mould of an Al Davis player as you can get. Predicting the Raiders' drafts has been fairly simple over the past several years: just look for them to take the fastest player available, and generally to do so anywhere from 10 picks to 5 full rounds above where the "expert" consensus would have him slotted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remianen Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Not sure about that given that Al passed on him at 7 to take DHB in 2009. Crabtree's never going to run a 4.3 40, so he's about as far from the mould of an Al Davis player as you can get. Predicting the Raiders' drafts has been fairly simple over the past several years: just look for them to take the fastest player available, and generally to do so anywhere from 10 picks to 5 full rounds above where the "expert" consensus would have him slotted. Correction: Al Davis tends to take the fastest player available that will create the most buzz (positive or negative). Sometimes he's painted into a corner and has to take someone who doesn't fit that description (see: Gallery, Robert). In that case, he errs more toward the 'bigger is better' side of the scale. Remember, this is the same Al Davis who, in the last five years, has paid BIG dollars to unproven players but given away Pro Bowlers for a song. Quick question, who is John Bowie? Anyone? Anyone? John Bowie is the player the Raiders wound up with (4th rd draft choice).....for Randy Moss. Now they give away their best defensive lineman...to the same team that robbed them for Moss! I still think that now that Matt Millen is no longer running a franchise, the team most likely to take a big name (or straight line fast) receiver way too high, is the Raiders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazorbeak Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 speaking of crabtree how f*cked up is that? he's probably gonna hold out the entire season and (if there is a next season) enter the draft as most likely a 3rd rounder due to his attitude. Singletary is better off without him I think. but a lot of people will most likely disagree with me on that Why on earth would he hold out the entire season? God I'm not even a lawyer (yet) but I can tell you the absolute STUPIDEST thing he could ever do is not take the 49ers deal just before the season opens. He will never be more valuable than he is right now (until he is a pro bowler coming into a contract year, if that happens), and when the season starts he starts missing weekly installments of guaranteed money because he thinks he's worth more than anybody else thinks he's worth. At a certain point Crabtree is going to have to swallow his pride and take some money because quite simply there is no way for him to make any more right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthsiddus2 Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Why on earth would he hold out the entire season? God I'm not even a lawyer (yet) but I can tell you the absolute STUPIDEST thing he could ever do is not take the 49ers deal just before the season opens. He will never be more valuable than he is right now (until he is a pro bowler coming into a contract year, if that happens), and when the season starts he starts missing weekly installments of guaranteed money because he thinks he's worth more than anybody else thinks he's worth. At a certain point Crabtree is going to have to swallow his pride and take some money because quite simply there is no way for him to make any more right now. Crabtree's fired about 3 or 4 agents according to ESPN and he's already been holding out the presesaon. what's stopping him from holding out the entire season without a deal? he' should just hire Drew Rosenhous and get it over with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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