The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Sazzita]

I dont get to watch the WWE as much as I used to and please can someone get that guy a tan

[UkWrestleFan]

Just thought of something... I guess I'll have to wait to see the show if I have any forsight at all but... again with White Text below

 

Hmmmm, interesting thought....[White Text Below]

 

I'm not sure if Cena was with Nexus on SmackDown, it didn't actually say in the spoliers. I'd have thought so.

[PeterHilton]

The answer is simple, and if you are 34 you are old enough to remember it.

 

Kayfabe.

 

Sure, even with god awful jobber matches, as little kid, I knew it was fake, but since it had the pretext of being legitimate, I could suspend my disbelief enough to give a damn.

 

The very moment wrestling shows had a magic camera backstage that the wrestlers had to pretend they couldn't see, but followed them around and would broadcast their evil plans to sneak attack the baby face not only to the audience, but everyone in the arena and even their target who could hear the audio, yet always managed to fall for it. I was simply too insulted to care any more.

 

Oh GOD...I hate this answer. I really just hate it.

 

It's like going to people and saying that "you know what ruined music..those din-durn kids and their rock n roll music"

 

It's never going to be undone. Kayfabe could never exist today. And the fact that people even bring this up makes them sound like some crotchety old man.

 

EDIT: sure enough I go to the next page in the thread and the crotchety old guy agrees lol

 

Fellas...it's over. Kayfabe is dead. It's been dead for a good 20 years. There's no way kayfabe could exist any more...there's just too much information available to fans. The closest approximation would be Self's suggestion of running a promotion like a TV show, where you come out and admit that these are "actors" playing a "character" while they're on screen and that "on screen" is the only time you have to suspend your belief.

 

If not having kayfabe bothers you so much you should maybe get on the trolley and head downtown to see what's playing on the magic picture tube.

[Stennick]

The point Peter is trying to make is that the business HAD to change.

 

In fact some might say that it was BEHIND the times. By the time 1996 came along we already had 24 hour news, we already had the internet, we already had every single bit of information we needed on any one thing in a matter of moments.

 

People say they were "in" on it in the 70's and 80's but if you were in fact "in" on it you were in the minority. You don't riot and stab people if you're "in" on it yet this happened all the time int he 70's and 80's.

 

The point is its not like they just went in this direction all their own. The entire world was changing and for a while they were in last place. Nobody wanted to see good guy vs. bad guy anymore and thats why Vince almost went out of business nothing to do with anything else.

 

Jerry Springer, Teen Movies, Grunge Rock, times were changing and if Vince and company didn't change with them they were going to go the way of 80's hair metal bands.

 

The WWF had to change and it changed its product MUCH later than the rest of the late nineties entertainment genres. There is no way in 2010 that the 1970's and 80's form of pro wrestling would come close to working it just wouldn't.

 

You said you were "insulted" by them presenting something to you that took you out of the moment. Yet you weren't insulting about Ric Flair and the Horseemen rubbing Ricky Morton's face into the pavement until he bled, or the Road Warriors ramming a spike in Dusty's roads eyes, or Magnum TA and Tully Blanchard's I Quit match, or Scaffold matches. It was ok for these guys to do attempted murder on each other because it was kayfabe but you were insulted when someone tried to give you a magical camera?

 

That seems off.

[LordJaguar]

Not to sound crotchety and old but, doesn't CHIKARA sort of use kayfabe?

[Stennick]

To a degree yes its tongue and cheek kayfabe. Its not like anyone is trying to say OMG this is real!

 

They use an air grenade as a finisher move there so take that for what you will kayfabe wise.

 

Its not so much Kayfabe as its protecting the workers indedtiies. A lot of the guys that work CHIKARA work other places under more serious characters. If they were "outed" then their more serious characters may not be taken....well seriously.

 

Aside from the protection of worker identities I wouldn't say their any more Kayfabe than ROH.

 

Kayfabe still exists its just a much much more loose version than it was 25 years ago. Not even the WWE says "btw this is completely fake" they just loosen it up to the point where light coming out of an Urn is an ok storyline.

[PeterHilton]

I can look back at the history of Wrestling and see how it all come to the point it is now pretty easily though.. But at that time I didn't have this information in front of me. You had the turn of the century (1900) with the Gold Dust trio being formed by three great minds "Ed 'The Strangler' Lewis (very popular wrestler), Billy Sandow (great manager and promoter), and Toots Mondt (visionary of what wrestling could be). Sandow and Mondt have a difference in opinion (physical traits in wrestler's, etc.), Mondt teams with Roderick "Jess" McMahon and forms Capital Wrestling, Vincent J McMahon Later replaces his father, WWWF joins the NWA in the early 50's, etc. This is the same company today, although having changed names, it's still the same company since probably the late 20's or early 30's. Jess was a boxing promoter, and Toot's knew if he could team up with him, they would be able to controll the New York regional area. The company was not a bad company till Vince Jr. took over.

 

 

This paragrph is just hilarious. It's like listening to someone complain about leather helmets going away in football.

 

You should change you avatar to a picture of grampa Simpson and call it a day.

 

If people were really that unhappy with the product, then the WWF wouldn't have attracted the following they did.

 

It's simple: those old-timey fans fell off and new fans were created. More new fans. Who spent more and were willing to buy PPVs and merchandise and watch TV and boost ratings, etc. If those territories were run better or were more popular, they wouldn't have been bought out in the first place.

 

It happens in all business: smart companies evolve and create new customers. Not-so-smart companies stay the same, never change, and cling on their fanbase hoping it will be enough to keep them alive, not realizing that eventaully their customers age and change no matter what. Smart companies stay relevant. Not-so-smart companies complain about 'the good ol' days'

 

Vince pushed the industry. And all those old timey promoters couldn't hang.

 

That's what happened.

[lazorbeak]

What kills me is there's absolutely nothing that stops an individual from basically simulating kayfabe. All you have to do is not read spoilers, not read terrible wrestling news websites, and just react to the story the same way as you would react to characters in a play. Watching a play wasn't ruined the first time somebody realized it was artificial: of course it's artificial, look at the level of production it took to get everyone into the building in a position where they could see what was going on! Then, if you like what you're watching, keep watching it. It's really that simple.

 

If what kills your interest in wrestling is nostalgia for when you used to be a mark, maybe it's time to start acting like a mark again? Stop worrying about how many stars somebody gave something and just react organically to what you're watching.

[PeterHilton]

Not to sound crotchety and old but, doesn't CHIKARA sort of use kayfabe?

 

To go along with what Stennick said, they are pretty close to what Self suggest in that the fans know "ok what's on screen is a story and it's fake..but we're going to treat it like it's real and be committed to that story while we're on-screen" but that's just while we're on screen.

[PeterHilton]

In fact some might say that it was BEHIND the times. By the time 1996 came along we already had 24 hour news, we already had the internet, we already had every single bit of information we needed on any one thing in a matter of moments.

 

 

A lot of THIS

 

The WWE is still struggling with how to use their website and o this day refuse to address internet news. Every other major sporting event on the planet uses live web interaction; it should be a no-brainer to have a running blog, exclusive web content, or at least some wrestlers tweeting during RAW.

 

At the very least, figure out how to get a proper fantasy league working. Yeesh.

[Stennick]

I have no idea why there isn't more exclusive web content.

 

A Few years ago I think they had stuff on their website during the commerical breaks, something along the lines of tune into WWE.com to see the show between the show but I would assume that has stopped.

 

As you said they have no fantasy league, nothing. Their M.O is to usually catch up to pop culture a few years after its happened and hold onto it a lot of years after its relevant.

[PeterHilton]

I remember they had some stuff on during breaks, but that went away w/o any real explanation (At the very least you should be able to see what's happening in the ring during commercials)

 

And they've tried fantasy leagues but they always sucked and made no friggin' sense.

 

It's like no one in the E has figured out how to make money off their web content so they just quit trying. it's kinda embarrassing that a company that big has no real multimedia presence. I mean ..they just barely got on board with youtube.

 

From that standpoint, TNA is much MUCH smarter.

[lazorbeak]

I have no idea why there isn't more exclusive web content.

 

A Few years ago I think they had stuff on their website during the commerical breaks, something along the lines of tune into WWE.com to see the show between the show but I would assume that has stopped.

 

As you said they have no fantasy league, nothing. Their M.O is to usually catch up to pop culture a few years after its happened and hold onto it a lot of years after its relevant.

 

They don't change because they don't have to change. They have the biggest library of wrestling content in the world, they have the most visited wrestling web-site in the world, they are so far and away #1 that until TNA can make a website that is not absolutely awful they won't feel the need to evolve. I mean their website isn't great but remember how much better WWF's site was compared with WCW's?

 

But I mean every guy on the roster has an "official" facebook/twitter/whatever pages. Why can't I access Shamus' WWE-sponsored facebook page and read his status updates about never going outside directly from WWE's site? I mean they could do superstar specific web-sites but honestly the single superstar web-page is already passe? Everybody already uses facebook, so just cross-promote through it.

 

I mean one of the greatest things about wrestling in the 90's is it was cool enough to cross over into mainstream culture, whereas now it seems to exist on its own little island, and as the rest of the world evolves, WWE's content exists in a vacuum outside of mainstream culture for the most part. I mean granted, Zack Ryder's gimmick was perfectly timed for generating heat (it appeared before the Jersey Shore, but showed a familiarity with the modern guido), but that's what, one hit in the past 2-3 years? I'll also give them credit for hitting the Paul Birchall gimmick at the right time, but they pulled the plug on it before it went anywhere. I mean certain gimmicks are timeless and the last thing the world needs is a diva doing a lady gaga gimmick while john cena wrestles the dude from Avatar (although that does sound like something WCW would have done with Sting in the early 90's), but on the whole, WWE's production seems to be operating a good 3-5 years behind pop culture, which is why pop culture doesn't go out of its way to get wrestlers involved in the mainstream the way it did for Austin and the Rock.

 

Going back to the website, why isn't there any journalism equal to what espn produces on their site for every sport on a weekly basis? How hard could it be to have something to say about wrestling? I mean I'm not saying you can't have garbage like this: http://www.wwe.com/inside/wwefeaturepage/features/stupiditylist/

 

That might entertain a 10 year old, but balance it out with some intelligently written editorial pieces. Why is Randy Orton the greatest champ of the modern era? Why Evan Bourne will never be a world champion. Stuff like that is guaranteed to piss off smarks, but it keeps them coming back to WWE's site. Make all the adware copy/paste sites obsolete, WWE!

[juggaloninjalee]

They don't change because they don't have to change. They have the biggest library of wrestling content in the world, they have the most visited wrestling web-site in the world, they are so far and away #1 that until TNA can make a website that is not absolutely awful they won't feel the need to evolve. I mean their website isn't great but remember how much better WWF's site was compared with WCW's?

 

But I mean every guy on the roster has an "official" facebook/twitter/whatever pages. Why can't I access Shamus' WWE-sponsored facebook page and read his status updates about never going outside directly from WWE's site? I mean they could do superstar specific web-sites but honestly the single superstar web-page is already passe? Everybody already uses facebook, so just cross-promote through it.

 

I mean one of the greatest things about wrestling in the 90's is it was cool enough to cross over into mainstream culture, whereas now it seems to exist on its own little island, and as the rest of the world evolves, WWE's content exists in a vacuum outside of mainstream culture for the most part. I mean granted, Zack Ryder's gimmick was perfectly timed for generating heat (it appeared before the Jersey Shore, but showed a familiarity with the modern guido), but that's what, one hit in the past 2-3 years? I'll also give them credit for hitting the Paul Birchall gimmick at the right time, but they pulled the plug on it before it went anywhere. I mean certain gimmicks are timeless and the last thing the world needs is a diva doing a lady gaga gimmick while john cena wrestles the dude from Avatar (although that does sound like something WCW would have done with Sting in the early 90's), but on the whole, WWE's production seems to be operating a good 3-5 years behind pop culture, which is why pop culture doesn't go out of its way to get wrestlers involved in the mainstream the way it did for Austin and the Rock.

 

Going back to the website, why isn't there any journalism equal to what espn produces on their site for every sport on a weekly basis? How hard could it be to have something to say about wrestling? I mean I'm not saying you can't have garbage like this: http://www.wwe.com/inside/wwefeaturepage/features/stupiditylist/

 

That might entertain a 10 year old, but balance it out with some intelligently written editorial pieces. Why is Randy Orton the greatest champ of the modern era? Why Evan Bourne will never be a world champion. Stuff like that is guaranteed to piss off smarks, but it keeps them coming back to WWE's site. Make all the adware copy/paste sites obsolete, WWE!

 

Great ideas for the website. Maybe you should try to get a job in WWE and then pitch that idea to them.

[Antithesis]

Oh GOD...I hate this answer. I really just hate it.

 

It's like going to people and saying that "you know what ruined music..those din-durn kids and their rock n roll music"

 

It's never going to be undone. Kayfabe could never exist today. And the fact that people even bring this up makes them sound like some crotchety old man.

 

EDIT: sure enough I go to the next page in the thread and the crotchety old guy agrees lol

 

Fellas...it's over. Kayfabe is dead. It's been dead for a good 20 years. There's no way kayfabe could exist any more...there's just too much information available to fans. The closest approximation would be Self's suggestion of running a promotion like a TV show, where you come out and admit that these are "actors" playing a "character" while they're on screen and that "on screen" is the only time you have to suspend your belief.

 

If not having kayfabe bothers you so much you should maybe get on the trolley and head downtown to see what's playing on the magic picture tube.

 

I know kayfabe is dead, that is probably why I said I was too insulted to care any more about wrestling, meaning to care to watch.

 

And it isn't as simplistic as one's subjective choice. Breaking the fourth wall is fine for comedy. But you can't get a real emotional investment from someone when you turn around on the screen and give them a wink and tell them don't worry, nothing they are seeing is real. And then lacking that investment, why should a heterosexual male care about two sweaty, half naked men rolling around in a ring pretending to punch each other?

 

I'm not bitter btw. Fortunately for me there is MMA, and the fighters seem to be catching on to the idea of building 'heat' for fights. Hell, there is even reality TV, which of course is as big a work as pro wrestling, but those shows don't give the old 'wink wink nudge nudge' that drove me away from wrestling a decade ago.

[djthefunkchris]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Antithesis" data-cite="Antithesis" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I know kayfabe is dead, that is probably why I said I was too insulted to care any more about wrestling, meaning to care to watch.<p> </p><p> And it isn't as simplistic as one's subjective choice. Breaking the fourth wall is fine for comedy. But you can't get a real emotional investment from someone when you turn around on the screen and give them a wink and tell them don't worry, nothing they are seeing is real. And then lacking that investment, why should a heterosexual male care about two sweaty, half naked men rolling around in a ring pretending to punch each other?</p><p> </p><p> I'm not bitter btw. Fortunately for me there is MMA, and the fighters seem to be catching on to the idea of building 'heat' for fights. Hell, there is even reality TV, which of course is as big a work as pro wrestling, but those shows don't give the old 'wink wink nudge nudge' that drove me away from wrestling a decade ago.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> No matter the opinion of other's, I still like a different approach in wrestling.</p><p> </p><p> I wouldn't mind seeing one show focus on the tag division, another on the diva's, another on the main title, etc... Nothing wrong with throwing in other bouts, just saying the entire focus of the whole show should be one or two area's, not everyone at once. I would prefer it that way anyways. To me you could potentially make alot more stars, then just throwing dozens in the show and hoping someone catch's on.</p><p> </p><p> I would also like the "finisher's" to mean a little more then they do now. At least for the one's they want to make a threat... They always start them off right, to build them up. Then they quickly get lost in the shuffle, as plans change. Vladimir to me could have been a much greater character, had they kept him strong as they had him to start with. Someone that if you passed/beat, would insure your ready for the top cards. They don't follow through, for whatever reasons. </p><p> </p><p> These things are what I miss in the old days... Now, I like the Nexus move, and I like characters like Shaemus. I really think John Morrison is doing alot better then when I first seen him, as in... I think of him more as an adult then a child actor that can do a flip. I like CM Punk, and think he brings a little old school fun to the equation. Orton has finally won me over, etc. There are lots of things I feel they did eventually do right. I'm not knockin' the product at this time.... I'm just not buying that they were the number one promotion, when TV ratings and various other variable's shows they were not... The only time they were was AFTER the shady dealings.... </p><p> </p><p> I will agree that it was innovative at the time, and if other's would have caught on sooner maybe they would still be around. It was a bold move, and it was an unrespectfull move, but that's besides the point... it was going to happen sooner or later anyways. I don't dissagree with that, and I think Vince was very smart the way he done it... Doesn't mean I thought his wrestling was best... doesn't mean anyone did. Prior to the year Hogan joined WWF, before Wrestlemania, etc.. The company was just one of many, and they had to give up the time slot they bought from GCW because their ratings sucked in comparison.</p><p> </p><p> You can keep skipping all of that, and go back to "But they did Wrestlemania!" and leave it at that... True, they did it, no one else did it. I can't deny them that, nor do I wish to. I'm just saying they weren't as "Special" to ME back then as people seem to think they must have been to get to the position they are now.</p>

[PeterHilton]

Wow...you are TOTALLY just rambling now. That post was all over the place.

 

In the immortal words of Brian Fantana: Take It Easy Champ. Maybe You Should Stop Talking For a Little While.

[Gabbo]

<p>Met Sheamus today at a signing. Nice fella. Took a photo, signed my DVD and the sleeve and shook his enormous hands. I'm not a small guy but Good Lord he was big.</p><p> </p><p>

The first wrestler signing I've been too. Been to the shows a few times, never hung round to meet the guys though. </p><p> </p><p>

But yeah, good day out. Enjoyed it.</p>

[eayragt]

I don't know if this is even possible with 'Taker's injury, but if he comes back and wins the Rumble and then has a choice of facing Kane or Barrett for a title, I'll be a happy man. Apart from the not giving a new person a chance at winning the Rumble, but I think storyline it'd be perfect and we wouldn't instantly know who he'd challenge at WrestleMania.

[Gabbo]

<p>I don't like the stip for SvS where Barrett wins and Cena is free. Maybe there's another twist in the works but I'd have liked Cena to help Barrett win and then become his personal bodyguard until Cena wins the Rumble.</p><p> </p><p>

At this point Barrett can't even fire Cena - the man is guaranteed a title shot at 'Mania. Much like Orton was in 2009 despite attacking the McMahons. </p><p> </p><p>

Cena picks Barrett, takes the title and Nexus disbands at WM26.</p><p> </p><p>

Really thought it was going to happen as well.</p>

[eayragt]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Gabbo" data-cite="Gabbo" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I don't like the stip for SvS where Barrett wins and Cena is free. Maybe there's another twist in the works but I'd have liked Cena to help Barrett win and then become his personal bodyguard until Cena wins the Rumble.<p> </p><p> At this point Barrett can't even fire Cena - the man is guaranteed a title shot at 'Mania. Much like Orton was in 2009 despite attacking the McMahons. </p><p> </p><p> Cena picks Barrett, takes the title and Nexus disbands at WM26.</p><p> </p><p> Really thought it was going to happen as well.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Or Barrett wins the title, releases Cena... but he turns and joins Barrett!</p><p> </p><p> One can dream. It wouldn't make sense for the 'E to do that, but I'd like it.</p>

[masterded]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="eayragt" data-cite="eayragt" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Or Barrett wins the title, releases Cena... but he turns and joins Barrett!<p> </p><p> One can dream. It wouldn't make sense for the 'E to do that, but I'd like it.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> My dream would be Cena takes out Orton and Barrett wins the title. After the match Cena shakes Barrett's hand and then takes him out. "Awesome" plays the Miz comes out beats Barrett and the night ends with The Miz and Cena Hugging. Sure it doesn’t add up at all and would never happen, but I would love it.</p>

[eayragt]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="masterded" data-cite="masterded" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>My dream would be Cena takes out Orton and Barrett wins the title. After the match Cena shakes Barrett's hand and then takes him out. "Awesome" plays the Miz comes out beats Barrett and the night ends with The Miz and Cena Hugging. Sure it doesn’t add up at all and would never happen, but I would love it.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> It wouldn't make sense, but it'd be just about the only way to turn Barrett face at the moment.</p><p> </p><p> Not that making Barrett face would make any sense at all... and I'm not really sure how good a face he'd make anyway.</p>

[ampulator]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="eayragt" data-cite="eayragt" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>It wouldn't make sense, but it'd be just about the only way to turn Barrett face at the moment.<p> </p><p> Not that making Barrett face would make any sense at all... and I'm not really sure how good a face he'd make anyway.</p></div></blockquote><p> Actually, the way I want to see it is, Cena does what Barrett tells him, but does so unwillingly. Barrett wins the match, and Cena is free. However... "AWESOME" plays out, and Cena then screws Barrett, and the Miz wins the title. </p><p> </p><p> However, that would turn the Miz face. I'm not sure they want that.</p>

[Gabbo]

<p>I've always seen the MITB as a cheap way of injecting some excitement into the heavyweight title picture and right now they don't need it. They're actually writing an interesting angle as it is.</p><p> </p><p>

If the WWE feels the same way Miz will probably get a 1 day reign sometime in Jan/February. Win it at a PPV and lose it the next night on Raw with the Champ using his rematch clause. It fits his character and gets him out of the main event for 'Mania.</p>