PeterHilton Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 While this is all true, I believe the real reason for World Wrestling Entertainment trying to claim they are not a wrestling company and their workers not wrestlers is simple: by calling their workers 'superstars' or 'performers' or whatever instead of 'wrestlers', their employees have a lot less rights than if they were achknowledged athletes. That's completely false. I mean..totally..false. To the point of being a little silly... Their rights are dictated by the terms of their contracts. Nothing else. It's not like they would all of a sudden be guaranteed some kind of medical coverage or insurance if they were called 'wrestlers.' By that logic, wouldn't the 'wrestlers' working indy rights be treated better than the WWE entertainers are? And how's that going? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazorbeak Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Well up to and including a generation ago, most wrestlers were basically at "carny" level on the entertainment food chain. They even went from town to town calling their fans "marks" and speaking a barely disguised carny language. Edit: Hive, you're thinking of the illusory "independent contractor" status wrestlers have, instead of being "employees." Totally separate issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaysin Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 That makes me think of going down a slide. So...I approve, is what I'm saying. As an adult, I'm not supposed to go down slides. So if I'm at the top of a slide, I have to pretend that I got there accidentally. "How the hell did I get up here? I guess I have to slide down. WEE!" That's what you say when you're having fun. You refer to yourself and some other people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 The only thing I can think of is that there's still a stigma placed upon professional wrestling in the U.S. While things have changed quite a bit, I think the attitude era, while great for wrestling fans, ultimately made them look rather foolish from a mainstream perspective. To transition into being known as an entertainment company, they hope to transition into more of a fixture of the mainstream public. When they say 'you're just rasslers' they can come back and tout how they're more of an entertainment company than the 'rassling' people grew up to laugh at. It's more marketable to be an entertainment company. Also, there's more room for a longer tenure as well I would guess. Just my thought. Cheers. E-V That's sort of a misconception, because it was the during the Attitude, they were closer to the Mainstream than ever before... both WWF and WCW, during that time. Except for Russo's WCWcoughtnacough, they fit well within the Mainstream at the time. I think it has more to do with what they THINK they need to do, rather what they ACTUALLY have to do. Vince is sort of done with wrestling, in a sense. He's conquered. That's true enough. But he wants to expand beyond wrestling. He tried on not relying in the past, and he got burned, badly (Bodybuidling, Football). So, he's trying to morph his product into something else. All I can say is, it's not work out like he intended, and it's not working out to a lot of people's satisfaction. Buyrates and Live Attendance is certainly down, and TV Ratings are dropping slightly, and they are selling a bit less merchandise overall. The only thing is up, ironically, their B-moviie sales (which actually turn a quicker profit than their Hollywood tries). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hive Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Edit: Hive, you're thinking of the illusory "independent contractor" status wrestlers have, instead of being "employees." Totally separate issue. Yeah? My bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantabulous Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Wrestling fans know it's wrestling. They are just doing this to change the perspctive of people outside their fanbase. To change the minds of those people - if it's possible - it's worth it. Changing the name of what they do, whilst simultaneously denying they do what they do, isn't what's going to change the perception. It's the product they present that will do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Changing the name of what they do, whilst simultaneously denying they do what they do, isn't what's going to change the perception. It's the product they present that will do that. It's not just their product. It' as if WWE has removed everything that was interesting about themselves, and trying to go back to a more simple product, but with a base of workers that can't really work to their full potential to this product, and with a a large portion of the fan-base that is not sympathetic to the product either. WWE's Attitude? "If you don't like this, go watch something else (even when you will still be watching anyway)." A lot of fans then move on to other things. Not all at once, but through sheer attrition, some fans just go "screw it" and do indeed go somewhere else. The WWE has put all eggs in the entertainment basket, and now they are paying for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHilton Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Changing the name of what they do, whilst simultaneously denying they do what they do, isn't what's going to change the perception. It's the product they present that will do that. Haven't they done that? I mean..isn't what the WWE does significantly different than what longtime fans considered your typical 'wrestling' show? Plus..re-naming things is a pretty standard part of publicity and spin. Doesn't seem all that surprising to be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantabulous Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Haven't they done that? I mean..isn't what the WWE does significantly different than what longtime fans considered your typical 'wrestling' show? And it's done a bang up job of changing perceptions, not to mention enticing in the paying customer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Haven't they done that? I mean..isn't what the WWE does significantly different than what longtime fans considered your typical 'wrestling' show? Plus..re-naming things is a pretty standard part of publicity and spin. Doesn't seem all that surprising to be honest. The thing is, their rebranding and renaming sucks. If it was good, who would complain? But if it's not good, they should have just sticked to not rebranding or renaming at all. If you are going to do it, you have to do it right, or don't do it at all. It's exercise in pointlessness and aggravation. And it's done a bang up job of changing perceptions, not to mention enticing in the paying customer. Hah! Good one. Can't agree more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHilton Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 The WWE has put all eggs in the entertainment basket, and now they are paying for it. This is probably the best summary of the WWE's current problems I've seen on these boards; critical without being stupidly 'wrestling nerd' snarky They grossly over-estimated how easy it was to predict what wrestling fans like and how long mainstream fans would tune in to straight-forward stories and simple characters. They tried to get rid of the risk, and ended up delivering a product that is pretty boring after a while; there's no reason you HAVE to tune in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Husky Harris's apparant new Mankind like gimmick in FCW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 This is probably the best summary of the WWE's current problems I've seen on these boards; critical without being stupidly 'wrestling nerd' snarky They grossly over-estimated how easy it was to predict what wrestling fans like and how long mainstream fans would tune in to straight-forward stories and simple characters. They tried to get rid of the risk, and ended up delivering a product that is pretty boring after a while; there's no reason you HAVE to tune in. I don't think they abandoned ALL risk. That would be unfair statement... but the thing is, their version of "entertaiment" only appeals to a mile-wide but inch-deep fanbase. And when the economy and/or the wrestliing industry isn't so hot, these fans are simply not going to be there. And Vince needs to learn something about history, from his own actions. He changed the rules of wrestling with the WWE. No matter if you like this fact or not, he did. There's no escaping it. But now HE has to realize that ECW, WCW, and WWF Attitude changed the rules as well. It's too late to dial back. The Pandora's Box has been opened. You can never go back. He needs to adjust to the new reality, and he hasn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHilton Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 And it's done a bang up job of changing perceptions, not to mention enticing in the paying customer. The thing is, their rebranding and renaming sucks. If it was good, who would complain? But if it's not good, they should have just sticked to not rebranding or renaming at all. If you are going to do it, you have to do it right, or don't do it at all. It's exercise in pointlessness and aggravation. this has been going on for a while. i'm not saying 'denying they are wrestling' is logical of particularly effective, I'm just pointing out that re-naming is a common strategy and that the WWE specifically has been trying to pull away from the common perception of wrestling pretty much since Vince took over. Rock n Wrestling was the same thing. The Attitude Era was the same thing. And based on those successes, yes it's worked. If you guys want to put your noses up at Vince trying to change the image of his company, then you pretty much have to deny the success he's had since the first Wrestlemania, because it's all part of the same thing. He may not have been as obvious, but he's been doing everything possible to not be ' a wrestling promotion' since the get go. Calling the E 'an entertainment' is just an extension of that policy. because I'm fairly certain there were Quite a few fans who complained about the WWF changing it's identity back in the ealry 80s...but it worked. If you want to say now - 30 years after the fact - that it makes no sense then i'd like to know exactly where you think the wrestling industry would be NOW if the WW(W)F hadnt tried to separate itself from the industry back then,. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHilton Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I don't think they abandoned ALL risk. That would be unfair statement... but the thing is, their version of "entertaiment" only appeals to a mile-wide but inch-deep fanbase. And when the economy and/or the wrestliing industry isn't so hot, these fans are simply not going to be there. That 'mile wide' thing is hard for business people to ignore. Especially business people with shareholders they have to answer to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaysin Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Husky Harris's apparant new Mankind like gimmick in FCW. People keep saying it looks like a hockey mask, but it resembles Paul Gray's mask more to me. http://www.metalinsider.net/site/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Paul_gray-199x300.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 That 'mile wide' thing is hard for business people to ignore. Especially business people with shareholders they have to answer to. I'm not asking them to ignore it. I'm saying they are relying on it too much. You must always have a solid base you can rely when things go bad, and the WWE is slowly chipping away at their own base. And like I said before, they can rename and rebrand all they want, but it HAS to be good, or don't it if isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 People keep saying it looks like a hockey mask, but it resembles Paul Gray's mask more to me. http://www.metalinsider.net/site/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Paul_gray-199x300.jpg It does look similar to that. I hope Husky can pull the gimmick off because I like him, but am already skeptical. His motions looked forced, his Stunner wasnt brilliant, and I despise people who wrestle in street clothes (I even dislike them just wearing a shirt like Big Show has done recently). But like I say, good luck to Husky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaysin Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I can't complain...he was wearing a Misfit shirt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHilton Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I'm not asking them to ignore it. I'm saying they are relying on it too much. You must always have a solid base you can rely when things go bad, and the WWE is slowly chipping away at their own base. i agree. Again...just pointing out that there was a method to the way they structured things and the type of product they've created. Stories liek this come out and internet wrestling fans react like "OH NOEZ just another example of why Vince is soooo stupid!!!!" when the fact remains that the product the E has created is wanted more than the stuff the IWC thinks people want. They misjudge the market. And they are incredibly slow to react. But they know what they're doing more times than not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHilton Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 And like I said before, they can rename and rebrand all they want, but it HAS to be good, or don't it if isn't. And don't you think they are doing it because they think it's 'good?' you really think that they haven't done their homework before changes are made? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 And don't you think they are doing it because they think it's 'good?' you really think that they haven't done their homework before changes are made? McGillicutty (sic). Need I say more? And, yes, I don't think they have done their homework before changes are made. The names they give people are terribl.e. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantabulous Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 For the record, I'm not turning my nose up at Vince changing the image of his company. I'm just pointing out that, right now, it simply isn't doing what he thinks it will do. It hasn't changed any perceptions of WWE (the TMZ situation should tell you that) and it hasn't done wonders for their business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHilton Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 McGillicutty (sic). Need I say more? And, yes, I don't think they have done their homework before changes are made. The names they give people are terribl.e. So your stance is that a publicly traded, billion dollar, multi-national corporation doesn't do market research (or doesn't do enough market research) because some of the names they give wrestlers are iffy? Well there you go... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHilton Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 For the record, I'm not turning my nose up at Vince changing the image of his company. I'm just pointing out that, right now, it simply isn't doing what he thinks it will do. It hasn't changed any perceptions of WWE (the TMZ situation should tell you that) and it hasn't done wonders for their business. Maybe. But the underlying philosophy worked for the last 30 years, his promotion is the most powerful in the world BECAUSE he wanted to separate himself from the wrestling industry, and i'm not sure that NOT following that philosohy would do anything for the WWE either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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