ampulator Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 So your stance is that a publicly traded, billion dollar, multi-national corporation doesn't do market research (or doesn't do enough market research) because some of the names they give wrestlers are iffy? Well there you go... No, they do market research. They just pick their names incorrectly. That's a huge difference. Just because they do market research on a business level doesn't mean they have the best minds on the creative level. That's a strawman argument. Don't misconstrue my words. Maybe. But the underlying philosophy worked for the last 30 years, his promotion is the most powerful in the world BECAUSE he wanted to separate himself from the wrestling industry, and i'm not sure that NOT following that philosohy would do anything for the WWE either. Look, no one disputes that. But what we dispute is the WWE needs to change with the times, and they haven't. It might be going back towards more wrestling, it might more towards something more realistic. But WWE's answer to go back to a barebones 80's style product with modern workers hasn't worked. And it's showed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHilton Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 No, they do market research. They just pick their names correctly. That's a huge difference. Just because they do market research on a business level doesn't mean they have the best minds on the creative level. That's a strawman argument. Don't miscontrue my words. Listen..I'm not going to play 'let's name logical terms' here. I'm not in debate club. This is what you said: "And like I said before, they can rename and rebrand all they want, but it HAS to be good, or don't it if isn't." 'Good' is an incredibly subjective, incredibly relative term. Really, who are you to decide what is 'good?' It's just your opinion My point was that they obviously make decisions based on some kind of homework or forethought. Now, whether or not you think is good is totally up to you, but to just dismisss the idea that a company that big doesn't do any research before naming their characters is nuts. just because YOU dont like the names does not mean that they just pulled them out of a hat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHilton Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Look, no one disputes that. But what we dispute is the WWE needs to change with the times, and they haven't. It might be going back towards more wrestling, it might more towards something more realistic. But WWE's answer to go back to a barebones 80's style product with modern workers hasn't worked. And it's showed. Considering there's not a single bit of proof that wrestling fans want to move to a more 'modern' or 'realistic' style of ringwork, I doubt that. But you're right...so far the move to PG hasn't panned out. Not sure what that has to do with emphasizing the entetainment aspect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Listen..I'm not going to play 'let's name logical terms' here. I'm not in debate club. This is what you said: "And like I said before, they can rename and rebrand all they want, but it HAS to be good, or don't it if isn't." 'Good' is an incredibly subjective, incredibly relative term. Really, who are you to decide what is 'good?' It's just your opinion My point was that they obviously make decisions based on some kind of homework or forethought. Now, whether or not you think is good is totally up to you, but to just dismisss the idea that a company that big doesn't do any research before naming their characters is nuts. just because YOU dont like the names does not mean that they just pulled them out of a hat. WWE isn't just any big company. If I was saying big companies was doing this, that's one thing. But I'm talking specifically the WWE. And if you read the names of their FCW roster, it DOES sound like the pulled it out of a hat. And whether YOU like it or not, it's not like WWE is known to do something they think is right, all evidence be darned. And I'm not the only that thinks the names are bad. some are good. But seriously, McGillicutty? I can understand why they didn't go with Joe Hennig, but come on. At least try to do a good name. Considering there's not a single bit of proof that wrestling fans want to move to a more 'modern' or 'realistic' style of ringwork, I doubt that. But you're right...so far the move to PG hasn't panned out. Not sure what that has to do with emphasizing the entetainment aspect. It does and it doesn't. People are bored with entertainment wrestling, or to be accurate, 80's style rock'n'wrestling entertainment wrestling. Bottom line, though, the WWE's product isn't diverse enough. It caters to only a few audiences, and that hurts it. They can make the product more diverse without adding that much risk. But WWE is so dead-set on being an entertainment company, they need to remember, at the end of the day, everyone OUTSIDE of wrestling sees them as pro-wrestling, and everyone INSIDE of wrestling sees them as pro-wrestling. They can't change or even hide that fact. WWE has been making some attempts to broaden their product (more Lucha, please), but some of it's token changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHilton Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 WWE isn't just any big company. If I was saying big companies was doing this, that's one thing. But I'm talking specifically the WWE. And if you read the names of their FCW roster, it DOES sound like the pulled it out of a hat. And whether YOU like it or not, it's not like WWE is known to do something they think is right, all evidence be darned. And I'm not the only that thinks the names are bad. some are good. But seriously, McGillicutty? I can understand why they didn't go with Joe Hennig, but come on. At least try to do a good name. You're making a big assumption based on the relative tastes of a small sampling of their viewers. It does and it doesn't. People are bored with entertainment wrestling, or to be accurate, 80's style rock'n'wrestling entertainment wrestling. Bottom line, though, the WWE's product isn't diverse enough. It caters to only a few audiences, and that hurts it. They can make the product more diverse without adding that much risk. But WWE is so dead-set on being an entertainment company, they need to remember, at the end of the day, everyone OUTSIDE of wrestling sees them as pro-wrestling, and everyone INSIDE of wrestling sees them as pro-wrestling. They can't change or even hide that fact. WWE has been making some attempts to broaden their product (more Lucha, please), but some of it's token changes. All true. But I doubt that adding more diverse ringwork will really create that much of a surge in popularity and - more than likely - if/when the E bounces back, it will have a lot more to do with finding new characters that engage the audience rather than adding a bunch of flippy indy guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 But that's not my point. Entertainment wrestling has been done. What else can they do? More entertainment wrestling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHilton Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 But that's not my point. Entertainment wrestling has been done. What else can they do? More entertainment wrestling? C;mon..you don't really think that ringwork is the issue? Look at the E's history (heck, look at the history of the industry): the biggest stars..the ones that drive the business and create mainstream popularity...have rarely been great at what net fans consider "great ringwork" I dont see any giant surge in popularity being achieved by adding different wrestling styles. There's no underground wave of hardcore wrestling fans out there that are going to push the WWE back into huge ratings and buy rates. So yes..more 'entertainment wrestling.' just make it actually entertaining Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 C;mon..you don't really think that ringwork is the issue? Look at the E's history (heck, look at the history of the industry): the biggest stars..the ones that drive the business and create mainstream popularity...have rarely been great at what net fans consider "great ringwork" I dont see any giant surge in popularity being achieved by adding different wrestling styles. There's no underground wave of hardcore wrestling fans out there that are going to push the WWE back into huge ratings and buy rates. So yes..more 'entertainment wrestling.' just make it actually entertaining Do I think ringwork is the issue? Absolutely not. Do I think they need t switch to a bit more ringwork? Absolutely yes. And what more entertainment wrestling? they pushed entertainment wrestling to the limit during the Attitude Era. To better eleborate, WWE is now like this: Key Feature: Mainstream Heavy: Traditional Medium: Comedy To push it anymore, it woud like this: Key Feature: Mainstream, Comedy Heavy: None Medium: Cult, Risque, Lucha Libre And considering the WWE has dialed back their Cult and Risque, I don't see how WWE can be even MORE entertainment-driven, other than making Comedy a Key part of their program. And since WWE's poor writing when comes to Comedy, every attempt they have tried has been fallen back then. There are three ways (though not exclusive from each other) that WWE can go. WWE CAN'T do more entertainment. Or I should say, they WON'T. To do so means they bring back some risky elements. They went to have their cake and eat it too, in this case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoisonedSuperman Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Maybe I'm a minority but I don't really watch wrestling for the wrestling, I enjoy the characters, interviews and skits more then anything else. I too find the comedy dumb but I wouldn't watch wrestling much if it was like ROH. I got a few of their first dvds and didn't like it. I used to buy the 5 (10?) dollar a week pay per views from TNA and I liked the wrestling there because they were doin some crazy moves I never saw (Sabin, Michael Shane, a few others) but they always had entertainment. I remember when CM Punk was Raven's lackey and I would log on the EWR message boards and everyone thought he was a wrestling God. I never knew was so special about it, but now that he's got the ball in the wwe and cutting great promos I like him a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHilton Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Maybe I'm a minority but I don't really watch wrestling for the wrestling, I enjoy the characters, interviews and skits more then anything else. I too find the comedy dumb but I wouldn't watch wrestling much if it was like ROH. I got a few of their first dvds and didn't like it. No. YOU are the majority. Net fans just don't like admitting that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHilton Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 There are three ways (though not exclusive from each other) that WWE can go. WWE CAN'T do more entertainment. Or I should say, they WON'T. To do so means they bring back some risky elements. They went to have their cake and eat it too, in this case. TEW terms don't translate to reality: I'll just say that I think they have to bring back some of the more risque elements and faster paced storytelling. New styles in the ring can't hurt, but they won't make ahuge difference regardless of how well they're received. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joehelmer Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I also watch wrestling more for the characters, for example before The Miz was doing this character as he's doing now is very good, now I can't wait for RAW this week to see what happens in the feud between Cena, The Miz and The Rock. And next week will be awesome with The Rock being back live. I even watched RAW last week even though I didn't want to see Snooki in WWE, as I didn't liked the Jersey Shore segments that TNA does. But Snooki actually did a good work, even though I probably won't watch that match at WrestleMania. If I do it's all for Morrison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoisonedSuperman Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I also watch wrestling more for the characters, for example before The Miz was doing this character as he's doing now is very good, now I can't wait for RAW this week to see what happens in the feud between Cena, The Miz and The Rock. And next week will be awesome with The Rock being back live. I even watched RAW last week even though I didn't want to see Snooki in WWE, as I didn't liked the Jersey Shore segments that TNA does. But Snooki actually did a good work, even though I probably won't watch that match at WrestleMania. If I do it's all for Morrison. Yes!! I am waiting for the start of RAW just so I can see what happens with Miz as well. When he came out as the Rock last week.... that was amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 TEW terms don't translate to reality: I'll just say that I think they have to bring back some of the more risque elements and faster paced storytelling. New styles in the ring can't hurt, but they won't make ahuge difference regardless of how well they're received. The thing is, though, WWE needs to broaden it's fanbase. Relying on one base is what got Vince's 70's and 80's competitors in trouble. Vince went Mainstream gain more fans. Today, he's in the same situation, except he has no internal competition to force his hand (for better or for worse). Vince, of all people, should know that have varied fanbase can help soften the blows of bad economy or downturns in wrestling. As for not making a huge difference, we don't know if we don't try it. At the very worst, it will make a minimal positive impact, like you said. At it's best, though, Vince may have found his next hit product that he can use for 10 or more years until he needs to freshen up again. He has little to lose, and a lot to gain. At this point, the risk is minimal, and the reward can be potentially great. I also watch wrestling more for the characters, for example before The Miz was doing this character as he's doing now is very good, now I can't wait for RAW this week to see what happens in the feud between Cena, The Miz and The Rock. And next week will be awesome with The Rock being back live. I even watched RAW last week even though I didn't want to see Snooki in WWE, as I didn't liked the Jersey Shore segments that TNA does. But Snooki actually did a good work, even though I probably won't watch that match at WrestleMania. If I do it's all for Morrison. The thing is, only the Miz nearly fits the bill of what the WWE wants (not all of it, but most of it). Every other worker just can't fit the product well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyb Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Yes!! I am waiting for the start of RAW just so I can see what happens with Miz as well. When he came out as the Rock last week.... that was amazing. This is what the WWE needs. Not a dramatic change in the product, or even to produce something that is that much higher in quality. All they need is a storyline, or a superstar which catches everyone's attention. It could be that they do that by bringing something radically different and new to the table, but it could just as easily be within their existing framework. They need one lucky, 3:16 moment to set alight and excite everyone. Everything else seems that much better, and other superstars get that much more over, when there is something getting major positive attention in your product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 This is what the WWE needs. Not a dramatic change in the product, or even to produce something that is that much higher in quality. All they need is a storyline, or a superstar which catches everyone's attention. It could be that they do that by bringing something radically different and new to the table, but it could just as easily be within their existing framework. They need one lucky, 3:16 moment to set alight and excite everyone. Everything else seems that much better, and other superstars get that much more over, when there is something getting major positive attention in your product. I'm not sure that's correct. Miz isn't more of the same, at least me. He is sort of the new generation of WWE stars that needs. And the thing is, WWE is only postponing the inevitable-wrestling has changed every 10 years or so, give or take. It's time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLLK Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Teaming with Big Show is probably the only thing that could get me interested in Kane. And, by the way, The Big Red Machine has got a GUT on him now, I've noticed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShaunGBD Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Who was that girl? O his wife... I don't think it was her. I seen pics Edit: I looked it up, was wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakerNGN74 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 A while back when Triple H and Randy Orton were feuding going into WM 25 they did a segment where Randy was in his house with his wife and Triple H came and kicked his ass. In tonights segment with Randy Orton's "Wife" I don't think that the woman in the WM 25 segment was the same as the one tonight. Of course he could have gotten a divorce you never know but if he didn't then its just weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShaunGBD Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 His wife tonight is his real wife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milamber Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 I think WWE should break for a month over Christmas and drop to 10 PPVs each year. With the increased time between the Royal Rumble and Wrestlemania, the quality of RAW and Smackdown has increased, IMO. More time to focus on storyline building. And if they stopped showing replays of incidents that happened 1 minute ago (barring shock angles and matches finishes) and 15 minute replays from the other brand's show etc. they could fit more wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milamber Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Thanks for coming DiBiase! The divas division is in such a poor state that now even Cole takes the mickey out of it on air. I guess the creative team have stopped even trying to fix it. I did enjoy Eve attacking Cole, though. And The Corre take on Santino/Kozlov yet again because the tag team division has such incredible depth. Admittedly I do enjoy watching Gabriel and Kozlov. Kane/Show made things more interesting but the partnership won't last long. The mixed tag match was more entertaining. Love the Sin Cara promos! CM Punk baiting Orton was good. In-ring beatdown angles are so overused so it's nice to see some variation. The Miz continues to be awesome. Cena continues to cut good angles. They better not blow it. Miz needs to beat Cena clean at Mania. Decent angle-based Raw let down by a lack of quality matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazorbeak Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 No heel ever needs to beat a babyface clean at the biggest event of the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joehelmer Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 No heel ever needs to beat a babyface clean at the biggest event of the year. Maybe not, but it would be cool if The Miz did. Mostly because I don't want to see Cena as champ right now. But I'm sure The Rock will get involved in that match somehow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
20LEgend Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Sorry, how is Kane face anyone have clips, seems rushed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.