The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Teh_Showtime]

Punk gets double if not TRIPLE the TV time Cena gets recently A 20 min segment on SD and Multiple segments on Raw.

Cena has the last 10 minutes and overrun as of late. Punk is carrying Raw right now

[soxfan93]

Punk gets double if not TRIPLE the TV time Cena gets recently A 20 min segment on SD and Multiple segments on Raw.

Cena has the last 10 minutes and overrun as of late. Punk is carrying Raw right now

 

And have you noticed that ratings are down in the second hour? Punk typically isn't on in the second hour, Cena is. So, right now, Punk is drawing better ratings.

[OldStingberg]

Punk gets double if not TRIPLE the TV time Cena gets recently A 20 min segment on SD and Multiple segments on Raw.

Cena has the last 10 minutes and overrun as of late. Punk is carrying Raw right now

 

A Raw that has been getting insanely criticized recently. 10 minutes of good would do a lot more for Punk than 30 minutes of bad.

 

And have you noticed that ratings are down in the second hour? Punk typically isn't on in the second hour, Cena is. So, right now, Punk is drawing better ratings.

 

Or the segments Punk is in are so bad that people are just tuning out.

 

To be honest, I don't really see your guys' argument here. Punk has been drawing noticeably less crowd heat lately, and it's certainly and undoubtedly less heat than Cena or Orton draws. You can try and finagle ratings numbers or TV times all you want, but the heat just can't be ignored. You can argue causes for it, whose fault it is, if or how it's fixable, any number of things, but you can't argue that it's not happening.

[Teh_Showtime]

Im not debating the quality, but he sure is getting the TV time of a top guy. Orton doesn't even get as much time on SD

[OldStingberg]

Im not debating the quality, but he sure is getting the TV time of a top guy. Orton doesn't even get as much time on SD

 

That's true. I think the WWE is definitely trying to get Punk up to that top level. They're giving his storyline a high profile and a lot of time. I just think they've totally and completely mishandled his storyline. And I worry that if they don't improve it, in six months Punk will find himself back down the card teaming up with someone like Justin Gabriel in another attempt to revive the tag team division.

[mike b]

WWE lets Nash go

 

http://www.wwe.com/inside/kevin-nash-released

 

I know another person mentioned this a a few threads ago but i am thinking its true.

 

But if true why.

[Jaysin]

WWE lets Nash go

 

http://www.wwe.com/inside/kevin-nash-released

 

I know another person mentioned this a a few threads ago but i am thinking its true.

 

But if true why.

 

I doubt its true. Especially with Johnny Ace being "Mr Future Endeavor" or whatever they copyrighted for him and him getting into the car with Nash after Nash got "fired".

[Zeel1]

Yeah, it's an obvious work. Kinda cool how they're announcing it like it's an actual release, though. From what I've heard, Nash is even trying to tell people it's legit, although no one's buying it.

 

Reality Era at work~

[djthefunkchris]

A Raw that has been getting insanely criticized recently. 10 minutes of good would do a lot more for Punk than 30 minutes of bad.

 

Who is doing all this insane critique?

[Stennick]

I'm pretty sure the Nash thing is legit.

 

Nash stated himself that he passed the physical just fine so it wasn't a failed physical. We get weeks of Nash/Punk buildup only for that to go away. I think its clear it was supposed to be Nash/Punk at NOC. Then something happened and they quickly aborted that part of the storyline. First by putting HHH in his spot and secondly but having it revealed in very quick fashion that Nash sent the text to himself before he got fired.

 

Simply pushed they rushed the hell out of this Nash storyline to tie it up. Nash has just signed a very nice legends deal. Its said to be the highest paying legends deal out of anyone with one. However legends deals don't have anything to do with on air talent. Thats a separate issue. Much like when Finlay was a road agent and a performer he had to be paid for the two.

 

Nash said they couldn't come to terms on a financial agreement and he's recently gotten a big role in an upcoming movie.

 

I'm 99 percent sure this is legit after a few weeks we'll know for sure. If he doesn't show up at Night of Champion's I'd say its legit.

[Fantabulous]

I love the idea that people take anything Nash says on Twitter as serious.

[Stennick]

I love the idea that people take anything Nash says on Twitter as serious.

 

I love the idea that people are so afraid of being "WURKED" by professional wrestling that they believe everything is fake no matter the evidence supported otherwise.

[Fantabulous]

What Nash says on Twitter, among other places, would have a tad more credibility if he hadn't sworn up and down he wasn't going to TNA right up until he showed up in TNA. That, and most of what wrestlers, especially those in WWE, say is worked. But they, these are just the facts. You might use something else to form your opinion.

[Zeel1]

I love the idea that people are so afraid of being "WURKED" by professional wrestling that they believe everything is fake no matter the evidence supported otherwise.

 

You have to consider the source here. First off, it's twitter. It's not exactly the appropriate place for official announcements.

 

Secondly... it's Nash. He could be saying "I need oxygen to breathe" and people would think he's lying.

[Stennick]

and most of what wrestlers, especially those in WWE, say is worked. But they, these are just the facts. You might use something else to form your opinion.

 

So which wrestlers have you chatted up about this? Have you and Santino had a sit down? You and Drew text it out? You and the All American American have dinner over this news?

 

Whats that? You haven't actually spoken to anyone that would know anything about this? Thats weird, you stated it like that was some sort of fact. You know the ones you implied I didn't have.

 

So let me see if I can get this straight. Nash's twitter and WWE.com are not legitimate sources for this news. You know the company that fired him and the guy that was fired. Or "released". But wrestlers who have in the past not known which show they were going to be working on the very next night would know whats going on with the top angle in that same company?

 

I'm speculating you got your news from the Wrestling Observer which would make it what? Third hand information by the time you got it. So you're basing your facts off of a fear of being "worked" by the WWE, by third hand information and a gut instinct? But me basing mine off of what the guy himself has said and off of what the company that employed him has said is some sort of ill fated logic?

 

Well sure because that makes as much sense as the ending to one of M. Night's most recent movies.

 

I'm not saying there is no way this is a work but I'm saying I believe it. Walks like a duck, talks like a duck, its a duck. Then again if he does come back at the pay per view I'll be all like "cool I didn't see that coming" while others will be rushing to their keyboards to proclaim how smart they are to the business.

[mike b]

Highlights from a recent busted open radio show interview with HHH.

 

http://www.sescoops.com/wrestling-news/wwe/hhh-on-cm-punk-calling-him-a-doofus-midcarders-pg-wwe/

[OldStingberg]

Who is doing all this insane critique?

 

Who isn't?

 

Here's a couple guys from PWInsider:

 

http://www.pwinsider.com/article/61385/looking-at-when-zack-ryder-is-the-only-positive-you-know-this-show-was-awful-edition-of-monday-night-raw.html?p=1

http://www.pwinsider.com/article/61440/an-exasperated-look-at-cm-punk-triple-h-daniel-bryan-jack-swagger-and-why-wwe-makes-it-hard-to-care-anymore.html?p=1

 

PWTorch:

 

http://pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/The_Specialists_34/article_53001.shtml

http://pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/absurityofitall/article_52989.shtml

http://pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/hitsandmisses/article_53014.shtml

http://pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/Torch_Feedback_17/article_53026.shtml

 

Bleacher Report:

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/839511-wwe-news-release-of-kevin-nash-is-prime-example-of-poor-storyline-direction

 

411 Mania:

 

http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/columns/200481/411%5C%5Cs-Instant-Analysis-09.05.11:-Monday-Night-Raw.htm

http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/columns/200660

 

That last one has an especially juicy bit.

 

If there's one thing I hate to be right about, it's the outcome of CM Punk's summer. Punk's run up to Money in the Bank was an absolute thing of beauty and helped create one of the best moments of recent times, but sadly that's all it was. Those people claiming that Punk's promos were as meaningful as the creation of the nWo or even that Punk had moved himself to being equal with Cena and Orton on the WWE depth chart were severely misguided. With the exception of getting some swank (old) new music Punk's "return" to WWE has become less magical every week. Coming out of SummerSlam there was hope that as Punk moved out of the WWE Championship picture there would still be something compelling and meaningful for the Second City Saint to sink his teeth into. A slow burn feud with Triple H, a war of words with Kevin Nash, and a multi-suspect conspiracy theory all had great potential. But the war of words between Punk and Nash was deflated by Nash's inability to recapture his past glory, the conspiracy was ended this past week with perhaps the worst possible reveal, and the slow burn to a Punk-Triple H match on a big show has been rushed onto a September B-show. Shoehorning in the stipulation that Triple H would have to give up the COO position her earned only a little more than a month ago and this feud has already burned through months of material. The entire Punk situation since his return has been giant case of missed opportunity and this feud has been a key part of that.

 

I can quickly and easily find more if you want.

[UkWrestleFan]

Hmmm I dunno about this whole thing with Nash being released. I think they're just messing with us, blurring reality, if you will. I think they're trying to make us not have a clue what is going on which will lead to some sort of surprise.

 

Lets look at some of the things that have happened:

 

- Nash returning and attacking Punk

- The whole conspiracy of who sent that 'text'.

- Nash blaming Trips

- Trips denying it

- Johnny Ace chatting with Nash backstage about something

- WWE copyrighting "Mr Future Endeavor"

- Nash coming out to nWo music

- WWE.com running an article on the nWo and a possible return for the group

- Nash being fired and leaving with Johnny Ace

 

Who knows what's going on but I think all this is just to F with us, really. Maybe they rthey did the nWo stuff to tease a return and have got rid of Nash to make us think it won't happen for definite but then at NoC Nash will turn up and something will happen.

 

Again, who really knows. I'm intrigued.

[SaySo]

From all those reviewers, i wonder what they have liked in the last five years. That would be a needle in a haystack adventure.

 

@UkWrestleFan, indeed. They left that segment with Nash and Lauirinatis for a reason after the kayfabe firing. It's like the Vince McMahon limo explosion and WWE trying to blur the line with reality by trying to make it like he died.

[UkWrestleFan]

I'd love for Nash to come back and getting the nWo back together. It would be cool if Nash came out during Punk/Trips and Trips turned heel with him and Nash beating the crap out of Punk. Then out runs Cena and everyone thinks he is there to help Punk but instead he joins in the beatdown, kind of like when Hogan joined the original nWo.

 

It won't happen because they're not gonna turn Cena at this point but it would be pretty epic if they did. Thing is, I dunno if kids would buy into Cena being the bad guy. Would they really care if he decided to beat the sense out of Punk? Do they love Punk enough to care? I doubt it.

[Tha Black Phenom]

When the WWE has two legitimate stars, yes, that's a bad thing. They should be creating new stars. And using some of their most talented workers as glorified jobbers for one of their two stars before shuffling them back off to the midcard isn't the way to create stars.

 

By legitimate I mean guys that have main event level heat right now, guys that can legitimately carry a main event program. That's Cena and Orton right now. That's it.

 

Punk is close, and I'd say for about a month there he was at that level. But pretty much everything since MitB has killed his momentum and knocked him down a step.

 

I think the WWE has a lot of potential stars. Punk, Del Rio, Wade Barrett, Sheamus, Miz, Christian, even Dolph Ziggler in my opinion. But those guys aren't going to ever reach Cena or Orton's level if the best opportunity they get is to be Cena or Orton's foe du jour.

 

There's a discrepancy there; nobody needs to reach Cena or Orton's level. They're the made guys, creating new stars doesn't just entail equaling their status. The fact you've been able to name a number of potential stars shows that they are creating new stars, and eventually, the majority of them will get their due. If someone is talented and over though, say like Punk, they may reach close or to where Cena/Orton are.

 

I don't wanna use Rock and Austin as a template to show where Cena and Orton have gotten to, but I'd say it's as close as it gets.

 

Christian didn't get shuffled back to the midcard at all, he's gotten more airtime than ever before, even on Raw. Consistently ruffling feathers with main-eventers, Raw's main-eventers even, how is that being shuffled back? Guys like Morrison and Kofi, now they got shuffled back to the midcard. Because they haven't been able to capitalize on their opportunities and became an afterthought.

 

Edit: You talk about Punk's momentum being knocked down a step since MITB(I would've thought since SS but okay). What else could he do after a program with Cena? Go to SD and feud with Orton? They gave him the biggest non-title angle you could arguably give someone, IMO. You can't push everyone at the same time. To create new stars, some will have to take the backseat, but just because they aren't treated in God mode doesn't mean they aren't legitimate stars. This is a different playground than a few years ago, where veterans were pissing out left and right. More than half of them are gone now.

[bookerman]

Does anyone think that at the end of the current programs (Cena/ADR and Orton/Henry) that both Cena and Orton won't have the titles? What was the last storyline that either were involved in where the title wasn't the main factor?

 

If you took Cena AND Orton off the roster right now, who would main event PPVs and TV? In the past, they had enough upper tier stars that they didn't need two guys to carry the programs. Austin, Rock, Mankind, UT, HHH, HBK when he came back with undercard acts like the Hardyz, Dudleys, Edge/Christian. The WWE has done a poor job of creating interest in stars outside of Cena/Orton and until recently, Punk.

 

I still don't understand why WWE didn't have someone like Mason Ryan or another young guy under contract play the Nash role. Punk takes them on at NOC and after Punk wins a hard fought match, he tries to interogate them, trying to find out who cost him the title. Just as Punk is about to get his answer, he's assaulted from behind by a chair wielding.....

 

Point being, the younger wrestler gets some attention and allows for the story to continue to evolve without having to napkin book like the last few weeks. Which is the crux of a lot of the WWE's issues, the constant changing of storylines and shows (up to hours before) leads to start/stop booking, talent treading water, and inconsistency in story telling.

[OldStingberg]

The fact you've been able to name a number of potential stars shows that they are creating new stars...

That's some pretty crazy logic.

 

Christian didn't get shuffled back to the midcard at all, he's gotten more airtime than ever before, even on Raw. Consistently ruffling feathers with main-eventers, Raw's main-eventers even, how is that being shuffled back?

 

In reference to Christian, I said 'shuffling', present tense. And I fully believe they're currently in the process of working him down the card, much in the same way they moved Barrett, The Miz, Ziggler, Swagger, etc., right back down the card.

 

Edit: You talk about Punk's momentum being knocked down a step since MITB(I would've thought since SS but okay). What else could he do after a program with Cena? Go to SD and feud with Orton? They gave him the biggest non-title angle you could arguably give someone, IMO.

 

Why end the program with Cena? Seriously, why? It was the hottest story the WWE has had in years, possibly a decade. Why hotshot it to a poor conclusion?

 

But if you have to end it, why move him into a feud with Kevin Nash and a face Triple H? Nash is old, irrelevant, and bad, and won't be able to deliver any good matches with Punk at PPVs.

 

And Triple H is just a terrible foe for Punk right now. Like I said before, Punk's schtick of speaking truth to power doesn't work when the power is incredibly popular. Again, Triple H was getting the crowd to pop in support of Vince McMahon. What can Punk do to draw heat from Triple H right now? All they've got him doing is insulting Stephanie and criticizing Triple H's manhood. Punk is currently a face acting like a heel to a more popular face.

 

This is the biggest non-title angle Punk could be in? A terrible whodunnit with no proper foe and little in the way of PPV payoffs?

 

To be fair, if Triple H or Cena turns heel on Punk at NoC, they can salvage this story to a point. I think no matter what they'll have missed a huge opportunity with Punk, but they can at least undo the damage of the past month if they get their **** together going forward. I don't have a ton of confidence in that happening, but I'm willing to wait and see what they do at NoC.

[OldStingberg]

If you took Cena AND Orton off the roster right now, who would main event PPVs and TV? In the past, they had enough upper tier stars that they didn't need two guys to carry the programs. Austin, Rock, Mankind, UT, HHH, HBK when he came back with undercard acts like the Hardyz, Dudleys, Edge/Christian. The WWE has done a poor job of creating interest in stars outside of Cena/Orton and until recently, Punk.

 

Don't forget Jericho or Kurt Angle, either. Seriously, looking at the stars the WWE had nine or ten years ago, it's crazy how things are now. And it's not like it's all hindsight, like trying to claim Cena as a big star in 2002 or something. You could say that Edge & Christian weren't there yet, though I think the argument could be made that as a team they were a great draw, but Austin, Rock, Mankind, Taker, HHH, HBK, Jericho, and Angle were all legitimate stars. Now there's Cena, Orton, and maybe kinda Punk.

 

I still don't understand why WWE didn't have someone like Mason Ryan or another young guy under contract play the Nash role.

Yes! Or, even more bewildering, why isn't someone like Mason Ryan in the Mark Henry role? All that role has required is a big muscular dude that can bodyslam people. No charisma or mic skills required! No in-ring talent required! Why waste this ridiculously easy monster push on Mark Henry, a guy the WWE universe has time and again not cared about? Why not use this ridiculously easy monster push to start making a new star? I was joking with a buddy that Mark Henry must be blackmailing Vince, because that's the only plausible explanation why he would get this push at this point.

[Tha Black Phenom]

That's some pretty crazy logic.

 

You see their potential do you not? Which isn't just because they're talented but because they're putting effort in advancing their characters, crafting their promos and what they bring to the table. You know where the majority of them will(or should) land in the next few years.

 

In reference to Christian, I said 'shuffling', present tense. And I fully believe they're currently in the process of working him down the card, much in the same way they moved Barrett, The Miz, Ziggler, Swagger, etc., right back down the card.

 

It's like I said, if they wanna create new guys, some will have to take a backseat at some point. The Miz has been taking a sizeable backseat when we all know he could rise back up to main-event stardom when the time will be right. Some cases will look less optimistic such as Swagger's, when it comes to Christian though he has what it takes in my opinion to be a mainstay heel for the brand if needed.

 

Why end the program with Cena? Seriously, why? It was the hottest story the WWE has had in years, possibly a decade. Why hotshot it to a poor conclusion?

 

But if you have to end it, why move him into a feud with Kevin Nash and a face Triple H? Nash is old, irrelevant, and bad, and won't be able to deliver any good matches with Punk at PPVs.

 

And Triple H is just a terrible foe for Punk right now. Like I said before, Punk's schtick of speaking truth to power doesn't work when the power is incredibly popular. Again, Triple H was getting the crowd to pop in support of Vince McMahon. What can Punk do to draw heat from Triple H right now? All they've got him doing is insulting Stephanie and criticizing Triple H's manhood. Punk is currently a face acting like a heel to a more popular face.

 

This is the biggest non-title angle Punk could be in? A terrible whodunnit with no proper foe and little in the way of PPV payoffs?

 

To be fair, if Triple H or Cena turns heel on Punk at NoC, they can salvage this story to a point. I think no matter what they'll have missed a huge opportunity with Punk, but they can at least undo the damage of the past month if they get their **** together going forward. I don't have a ton of confidence in that happening, but I'm willing to wait and see what they do at NoC.

 

I guess it's down to one's perspective how long it lasted, I didn't really feel any amounts of hotshotting myself, it looked clear they a) tried to wrap it up for the second biggest PPV of the year and b) they tried to cement Punk's face turn. He would've always gotten cheered against Cena, but if they wanted his face turn to be crystallized they had to gear him towards someone else. If you feel otherwise on the hotsotting of the angle fairplay, just for curiosity I wonder where else you could've sent the angle from then on.

 

And yes, better this than Punk feuding with R-Truth or Miz(though Miz could be a worthy angle right there). The disposition aspect between Punk/H is indeed head-scratching, and with Nash "out" of the picture for now, something has to give.. my prediction is Triple H turning heel. Or another party entering the fray. Either way, with how spotty the angle's been lately, I still have trust in two promo kings in HHH and Punk to deliver at least something decent. Even their promos on SD! caught attention.