The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[bookerman]

I also agree Punk/Cena could've went much further than that. I guess when I saw Del Rio cash in, I told myself "well that's all she wrote". Things were indeed cut short when H stepped in the scene, but I don't regret it all that much either.

 

See...I think Punk calling out ADR as the company chosen golden boy to capture the hispanic market would have continued his ranting about how others get chances he never got, how the "office" is still bad, and how Punk doesn't care that ADR's thug set him up, he's going to take the title back...cause he's the best in the world. This firmly establishes Punk as the face, lets ADR be champ and establish himself, keep Punk's anti-establishment vibe going.

 

For Cena, he can complain about HHH's job as ref. HHH admits the mistake and gives Cena a chance for another shot. Cena has to win 3 matches before NoC to make the match b/w ADR and Punk a 3 way. I could go further, but it keeps HHH out of the ring and put the focus on the in-ring talents (Punk/ADR/Cena) with each having something to prove. You could really do the HiaC match as singles with Ricardo/Cena happening exactly how it did (except Cena runs in to stop Ricardo) which allows ADRs muscle man to get involved as well. They'd have to find Cena someone to feud with until Survivor Series (which if they had used Mason Ryan instead of Nash, I'd have made it him...Ryan beats down Cena, trying to keep him out of the 3 way..per ADRs orders), but he's already getting the big program going into WM, so a couple of cool months shouldn't hurt him. This gives Punk/ADR a chance to headline a few shows and see what they can do. As Henry has shown, someone fresh on top can be a good thing.

 

A SS series match of Rock/Cena/Punk/Air Boom vs ADR/Ryan/Miz/Truth/??? would have been fun. Especially if ??? turned out to be HHH who turns heel and reveals that ADR/Ryan/etc are the future of the WWE...his chosen picks to carry the company to new heights. Sets up multiple people fighting the odds with Cena/Rock fighting b/c of miscommunication during the SS match (ie Rock causes Cena to get pinned).

[juggaloninjalee]

See...I think Punk calling out ADR as the company chosen golden boy to capture the hispanic market would have continued his ranting about how others get chances he never got, how the "office" is still bad, and how Punk doesn't care that ADR's thug set him up, he's going to take the title back...cause he's the best in the world. This firmly establishes Punk as the face, lets ADR be champ and establish himself, keep Punk's anti-establishment vibe going.

 

For Cena, he can complain about HHH's job as ref. HHH admits the mistake and gives Cena a chance for another shot. Cena has to win 3 matches before NoC to make the match b/w ADR and Punk a 3 way. I could go further, but it keeps HHH out of the ring and put the focus on the in-ring talents (Punk/ADR/Cena) with each having something to prove. You could really do the HiaC match as singles with Ricardo/Cena happening exactly how it did (except Cena runs in to stop Ricardo) which allows ADRs muscle man to get involved as well. They'd have to find Cena someone to feud with until Survivor Series (which if they had used Mason Ryan instead of Nash, I'd have made it him...Ryan beats down Cena, trying to keep him out of the 3 way..per ADRs orders), but he's already getting the big program going into WM, so a couple of cool months shouldn't hurt him. This gives Punk/ADR a chance to headline a few shows and see what they can do. As Henry has shown, someone fresh on top can be a good thing.

 

A SS series match of Rock/Cena/Punk/Air Boom vs ADR/Ryan/Miz/Truth/??? would have been fun. Especially if ??? turned out to be HHH who turns heel and reveals that ADR/Ryan/etc are the future of the WWE...his chosen picks to carry the company to new heights. Sets up multiple people fighting the odds with Cena/Rock fighting b/c of miscommunication during the SS match (ie Rock causes Cena to get pinned).

 

That is some interesting fantasy booking. I think I would have liked that. It helps Mason Ryan get over more than turning on Dolph and Jack did and I think it puts the focus where it should be right now. Yeah I really like that.

[bookerman]

Thanks.

 

They need to take the Batista route with Ryan. Muscle as part of a group or paired with a better worked in a tag team. I just don't see him getting over right now as a face.

 

I actually think Alex Riley is a better prospect all around, but he's already on Superstars duty which doesn't bode well. I think A-Ry and Morrison would be a fun tag team and give both something to do, especially when the tag titles are on Miz/Truth.

 

Going forward with Punk...have him work his way through the new heel stable until he's beaten all of them and finally gets a shot at ADR. Instead of taking a title shot against ADR, he decides he wants to chop the head off the snake and challenges HHH for WM.

[sebsplex]

I think A-Ry and Morrison would be a fun tag team and give both something to do, especially when the tag titles are on Miz/Truth.

 

I like that. I'm getting a kinda face MNM vibe and considering the history (Miz/Morrison, Truth/Morrison and Miz/Riley) it's not like much legwork would be required to start a decent programme between the teams.

[OldStingberg]

I wonder what happened to Riley. They aired a hype video for him on Raw just a couple weeks ago, but then nothing since then. It seems like that 6th face spot in the main-ish event on Raw last week would have made more sense for Riley.

[bookerman]

I like that. I'm getting a kinda face MNM vibe and considering the history (Miz/Morrison, Truth/Morrison and Miz/Riley) it's not like much legwork would be required to start a decent programme between the teams.

 

Morrison has some nice flashy moves and has tag experience. Morrison could play Ricky Morton to Riley's Robert Gibson. It allows Riley to come in and clean house while not over exposing him in the ring. Pre-Air Boom, I thought Bourne/Riley and Kofi/Morrison would have been good teams. The aerial ability of Ko-Mo would have been nuts.

[Teh_Showtime]

I dont think Riley has been on TV since he sandbagged Swagger, outside of the 4 way match at NoC that he was already booked in.

[Wrestling Century]

I dont think Riley has been on TV since he sandbagged Swagger, outside of the 4 way match at NoC that he was already booked in.

 

To me it looked more like he just didn't know how to take a Gutwrench Powerbomb, or he didn't know what move Swagger was trying to do. It didn't look like he was delibrately trying to sandbag Swagger.

[VTial]

I think he would have been a lot better off that where he is today. In fact, I think Punk feuding with pretty much anybody but Triple H would have left Punk better off.

 

I just don't understand the idea that the Triple H feud has kept Punk elevated. The thing that has kept Punk elevated is Punk. The WWE has done everything they could reasonably do to slow Punk down short of Morrisoning him or taking him off TV.

 

It's the "smirk".

 

Mic for mic, I agree. There's a lot of better feuds for Punk.

 

Unfortunately (and this applies to the success of Evolution too), the most guaranteed way to get a long mic segment would be against Cena and HHH.

 

Not just a long mic segment but a long match segment that often heads up to the main event.

 

The reason HHH is at least among the mid tier of quality mic feuds for Punk is that HHH being made to shut up hasn't happened in a long time so when Punk says something that just causes HHH to smirk, it rubs off on Punk and makes him to be the guy the authority figure "gone wild" can't touch and cements his status as one of the top guys.

 

In some ways, this has always been how HHH has "helped" get people over. The Batista and Orton feuds were also based on guys not letting HHH run the show anymore. The difference was that Orton was horrible at the mic and Batista...well he got injured and he dropped the smart Batista act.

[eayragt]

And I hate to say it, as Triple H is obviously a huge name, but how feud with Punk was also designed to elevate him. And he did need it. He hadn't wrestled for months... when he lost. He was in a storyline where his authority was in question. He needed a big introduction, and he got it in a feud with Punk.

 

Is Punk as hot as he could be? No. But Triple H is hotter. Del Rio is hotter. The Miz is hotter. R-Truth is hotter. There's a bigger picture at play. If his next major feud is Del Rio then its setup as a much better feud now than it would have been 3 months ago.

[VTial]

This is the problem often times with mediocre booking though, the guys that are getting hot don't exactly retain what they have.

 

JBL wasn't exactly as over as his character with the APA. He certainly was more reknowned because he was part of the main event but the gimmick didn't exactly build from his previous characters.

 

In contrast to the greats of the past up to HBK (The Rock and Stone Cold broke through new gimmicks) the problem with breaking gimmicks is that you have to be so over in order for that to help you long term.

 

In this sense, only HHH is truly having a legacy type of overness.

 

Miz's value has since been broken. He's barely on the mic anymore. Not only that, his legacy-type overness is connected to Riley and Morrison and that has been set aside. You wouldn't even buy that as a character this was the same guy who could cause John Cena problems or go toe to toe with Punk at the mic.

 

The same goes for R Truth. He's hot but what made him sizzle was his capability to be at the mic as a singles performer. Now he's just a slightly more over K-Kwik. You could say he's more violent but so was Kofi Kingston when he was smashing up cars. That didn't last long.

 

Alberto del Rio has it worse. He just bleeds JBL heat. Right now and until the WWE gets tired of him, he will be in the Main Event but he is worse than Miz at having that moment. The guy is almost building up to a new gimmick breaker in order to have his moment. Compare this to the Miz who at least had his mic moments as a champion. I'm not saying the ADR look would no longer be there but ADR right now is different from ADR when he debut and to turn him into this current guy, they had to kill the character's previous overness. They are bound to do that all over again once they realize ADR isn't exactly making Punk or Cena look good and Punk/Cena aren't the gimmicks to make ADR really be a main event championship contender that the fans would respect.

 

If you look at it from those perspectives, the only one that really is getting hotter is HHH as his actions build up from his previous gimmick's overness and if you stop the feud today, the perception of HHH would be more over in a memorable way. Punk? He has to rebuild. Cena? He's always Cena but they made him regress back into the old tired cliche of a character. Miz and R-Truth? Without this feud, they have to go back to being mid-carders unless they get pushed heavily as Main Eventers. Their characters don't work as well as upper mid-tiers. ADR? He'll still be the same guy they were trying to push only they did it more properly now so he at least gains a tad bit of heat but certainly not on any memorable heel level.

[OldStingberg]

The reason HHH is at least among the mid tier of quality mic feuds for Punk is that HHH being made to shut up hasn't happened in a long time so when Punk says something that just causes HHH to smirk, it rubs off on Punk and makes him to be the guy the authority figure "gone wild" can't touch and cements his status as one of the top guys.

 

Did you watch their feud? Because that didn't happen. In fact, you pretty much described what happened with the Punk/Vince feud. Punk spoke a bunch of truth, Vince never knew how to respond, and Punk won the title and "left the company" with it showing everyone that Vince couldn't touch Punk. Looking back, it's even more remarkable how well Vince put over Punk considering what happened when HHH "tried".

 

In theory, Punk should be able to feud with HHH like he feuded with Vince. But that's just not how it actually happened. Punk was given terrible material in a terrible story and HHH was more concerned with getting pops than actually putting Punk over.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Well that's where it comes down to opinion - not that I think Punk's material was masterful, but it was good enough that it certainly got the idea through. He didn't shut up HHH or anything but he clearly owned him more than once, to which the fans took note(terrible material or not) that Punk isn't to be taken lightly as opposed to the rest of the roster. The 'smirk'. If Trips was to take action next Raw on random superstars among the roster, even among the top stars, you'd bet that if there was one guy who would speak up against anything, it's him. As soon as Punk started saying things like "I don't like this Triple H, the new you sucks, I want the old you". That position right there - as a superstar - is a very special one to have, and Punk's transition from Vince to HHH was necessary for it to work.

[LoNdOn]

Here is the transcript of Antonio Cesaro's debut promo at FCW

 

"I've played in the small leagues for so long now that I've become bored. I have worked to get back here and not a single guy signed to a contract down here or up in Titan Headquarters will stop me from proving; whether it be by myself or as a King of Wrestling... That I am better than the rest."

 

"The man you knew me as is done, gone, finished. You recognize the face? This is a face you will get to know very well. I am Antonio Cesaro I am a King of Wrestling... The other is not too far behind and believe me when I say this. This place will soon have a Hero."

 

I got quite excited reading this.

 

Here is a video of his debut match:

 

http://nationalsportsreview.com/2011/09/23/video-fcw-seth-rollins-vs-antonio-cesaro-claudio-castagnoli/

[VTial]

Did you watch their feud? Because that didn't happen. In fact, you pretty much described what happened with the Punk/Vince feud. Punk spoke a bunch of truth, Vince never knew how to respond, and Punk won the title and "left the company" with it showing everyone that Vince couldn't touch Punk. Looking back, it's even more remarkable how well Vince put over Punk considering what happened when HHH "tried".

 

In theory, Punk should be able to feud with HHH like he feuded with Vince. But that's just not how it actually happened. Punk was given terrible material in a terrible story and HHH was more concerned with getting pops than actually putting Punk over.

 

To add to what the Black Phenom had stated already, the Vince feud was different in the sense that Vince (not being a wrestler) has a different effect both on the audience and in future feuds. Plus duplicating feud storylines back to back is obviously going to have some negative effects especially if they are a continuation of one overall story.

 

Vince can only disappear. HHH tends to stretch out feuds and then mess up the overness of wrestlers. Even for modern WWE standards, Punk vs. HHH had above average quality in terms of generating interest. Just look back on the past pages of threads here where everyone was on the bandwagon and only a few of us were being devil's advocates about Punk moving away from both Cena and the title.

 

This isn't to say that the material had nothing to do with it but the way it works with HHH related feuds is that the post-feud events are what messes with the wrestlers' overness and not the actual quality of the feuds especially if Hunter will allow you to get one over him. (Which Punk shouldn't have had but his mic material far surpassed Hunter's and he actually ended up having that.)

 

Primarily this happens because HHH will always be a major focus, like Cena. When you have wrestlers that always take up screen time but aren't monsters or invincible heroes (Cena doesn't really count mid-feud), they always ruin the overness of the rival unless the feud ends with a championship and a constant ME scene without HHH. The focus is often what ruins it even without blatantly terrible material. Punk for example could have easily slowly gotten the spotlight even if the storylines and materials were exactly the same.

 

They just had to put Punk more and HHH less and he would have gotten more over. Sure the lines had to be modified a bit but all you have to really do is highlight Punk's position more and it works. This is also what primarily differentiates Vince from HHH when they're doing the same type of storylines. Vince can't be in a lot of places. He's not a wrestler. He needs a thug for hire. All these things HHH doesn't really need AND on top of this it's not just him wanting more attention for himself, he fits in so many types of storylines and he likes long segments so even if he doesn't get over: Punk loses because every scene or topic where HHH is involved, Punk gets exposed less and less. (being mentioned doesn't count) It's just simple mathematics that the WWE has gone away from in the past years. The more trending a guy is, the more times you show him regardless of his official "overness" perception. Don't wait it out or sabotage it or you'll create a negative sum game where the guy has to rebuild his overness and his feud rivals also inherit their mediocre overness at the ME level.

[bookerman]

Who was the main focus of the past Raw? The new champ ADR? Nope, wasn't seen until 30 minutes in. Cena? Nope. Punk? Nah. The person who got the most face time on the show was HHH.

 

HHH has the highest sustained overness of anyone on the show based on his lengthy career and accomplishments. However, just because someone is in a segment with him it doesn't make them look more important. That's like saying anyone who is in a scene with House looks more important because they are interacting with him. Punk's material didn't help nor did the sudden shift from being screwed out of the title by Nash to feuding with HHH about whether he texted Nash or not. They killed Punk's heat by putting him a muddled, confusing story which in the end had zero payoff. Punk got bested physically by Nash numerous times, but never got to touch him. He got to throw some jabs at HHH on the mic, but was never allowed to drop "pipebombs" on him. Then Punk faces him in the ring and loses. Punk then gets pinned again to end the HiaC PPV. He gets beat on quite a bit during the 12 man tag and never gets to make his comeback. His character is being made to look weaker and weaker and instead of being someone special, he's being pulled back to earth as just another guy.

[OldStingberg]

I just want to highlight some of what bookerman said.

 

They killed Punk's heat by putting him a muddled, confusing story which in the end had zero payoff.

Well, zero payoff for Punk. It's doing quite well to elevate HHH, Miz, Truth, and John Laurinaitis.

 

Punk got bested physically by Nash numerous times, but never got to touch him.

Yep, Nash cost him his title, a #1 contender match, and his match against HHH, and Punk has got absolutely zero retribution for that with none in sight as their feud has seemingly died.

 

He got to throw some jabs at HHH on the mic, but was never allowed to drop "pipebombs" on him.

This is what I was mentioning earlier about Vince putting Punk over. Punk said much harsher things to Vince and Vince took them, because Vince was more concerned with getting Punk over than himself. Anything of substance Punk said to HHH was instantly met with a pretty reasonable retort which was usually designed to pop the crowd in HHH's favor. Punk said some solid stuff to HHH, but Trips just never really sold it, not nearly like Vince did, and it hurt Punk.

 

Then Punk faces him in the ring and loses.

And the usual response to this is, "Well, Punk had to lose because of the COO stipulation." That's dumb. The WWE shouldn't have backed themselves into that corner in the first place, especially because the COO stipulation meant nothing since HHH was so new. The stipulation essentially only served to tell us who would win the match.

 

Punk then gets pinned again to end the HiaC PPV.

While Cena gets to kick a little Mexican ass outside the cage before being locked out, thereby almost entirely protecting him in the loss. That tells you where the WWE's priorities are, as does...

 

He gets beat on quite a bit during the 12 man tag and never gets to make his comeback.

Sheamus getting the hero treatment in this match.

 

To be honest, to me, in my opinion, it seems like a couple people here are just desperately spinning things for whatever reason. It's like they're trying to tell me not to believe my lying eyes. We can argue about Punk's future, or about what heights Punk could have gone to immediately after MitB. But there should be no debate about the fact that Punk has been devalued, to some notable degree, either intentionally or not, since MitB. There just can't be debate about that.

[VTial]

HHH's bad but sometimes differing opinions are really a problem. I'm guilty of this myself as proven by the previous posts but now I think it's time to stretch back some of the so called facts by others.

 

Anything of substance Punk said to HHH was instantly met with a pretty reasonable retort which was usually designed to pop the crowd in HHH's favor. Punk said some solid stuff to HHH, but Trips just never really sold it, not nearly like Vince did, and it hurt Punk.

 

Actually Punk said harsher things to HHH. The "reasonable" retort by HHH is actually what helped fuel Punk more. They weren't reasonable. They were bland. So bland that it didn't gain much pops or boos. You could almost hear a pin drop everytime Punk stopped talking and HHH started rambling.

 

Some of the best Punk vs. Cena talks were also where HHH was involved.

 

Vince vs. Punk didn't work because of anything Vince did. It was due to the pseudokayfabe effect following the proximity to Punk's famous speech. In fact, without that speech, Vince's reaction nearly killed it against Punk.

 

His character is being made to look weaker and weaker and instead of being someone special, he's being pulled back to earth as just another guy.

 

His character is actually the strongest incarnation it has been.

 

Punk always had a bad history with power based wrestlers. (See Batista feud)

 

He then became more of a lackey who had trouble putting Rey Mysterio away when he had a faction.

 

Even nowadays, ADR's steel pipe has always been reserved for monster characters. Even HHH can lose with one well placed weapon. Punk had to go through a table and then get hit and then set up his move and then get hit again before losing.

 

The reality is, the more people focus on Punk, the more you will miss out on where HHH is the negative factor. Not the feud in particular or the quality of the storylines or who wins/who loses. Those aren't perfect but Punk has been the beneficiary of some of the better angles even in his debut. Feuding with HHH just dampens overness all the time because he has a special X-pac type of heat that he delivers on his feud rivals instead of himself and yet he continues to insist that he be the focus of his feuds.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Who was the main focus of the past Raw? The new champ ADR? Nope, wasn't seen until 30 minutes in. Cena? Nope. Punk? Nah. The person who got the most face time on the show was HHH.

 

HHH has the highest sustained overness of anyone on the show based on his lengthy career and accomplishments. However, just because someone is in a segment with him it doesn't make them look more important. That's like saying anyone who is in a scene with House looks more important because they are interacting with him. Punk's material didn't help nor did the sudden shift from being screwed out of the title by Nash to feuding with HHH about whether he texted Nash or not. They killed Punk's heat by putting him a muddled, confusing story which in the end had zero payoff. Punk got bested physically by Nash numerous times, but never got to touch him. He got to throw some jabs at HHH on the mic, but was never allowed to drop "pipebombs" on him. Then Punk faces him in the ring and loses. Punk then gets pinned again to end the HiaC PPV. He gets beat on quite a bit during the 12 man tag and never gets to make his comeback. His character is being made to look weaker and weaker and instead of being someone special, he's being pulled back to earth as just another guy.

 

 

And you mistakenly forgot to include things like I dunno, him pinning the WWE champion on a Raw show. Him actually getting the hot tag in a tag team match instead of Cena which has been the obvious long-term formula for whoever Cena tags with. Got the hot tag in that match AND ended up with the pin to close the main-event.

 

Just because HHH had an answer for most things doesn't mean Punk didn't drop any pipebombs. Punk did call HHH out for being a bully and you could arguably say whatever H responded to that wasn't exactly the be-all-end-all response to Punk's claims either. He referenced his debut gimmick Hunter Hearst Helmsley, something you'd think veterans would only be allowed to do because they're part of that "in" crowd but Punk got through that barrier.

 

Other things remain like dropping their real names on live TV, referencing HHH's butthurtedness about him getting outpopped by Punk at SS 07... it's not even that HHH no-sold all of that, it's that Vince did literally nothing. HHH was never gonna bow his head down to all of that. Everything Punk said about Cena, Cena responded to most of those claims too. Was he keeping Punk down? No, it's simply the thing to do. Believe me, I know how it was cool when Punk had the "last word" but one can't expect that to happen continously.

[Fantabulous]

I just want to highlight some of what bookerman said.

 

 

Well, zero payoff for Punk. It's doing quite well to elevate HHH, Miz, Truth, and John Laurinaitis.

 

 

Yep, Nash cost him his title, a #1 contender match, and his match against HHH, and Punk has got absolutely zero retribution for that with none in sight as their feud has seemingly died.

 

 

This is what I was mentioning earlier about Vince putting Punk over. Punk said much harsher things to Vince and Vince took them, because Vince was more concerned with getting Punk over than himself. Anything of substance Punk said to HHH was instantly met with a pretty reasonable retort which was usually designed to pop the crowd in HHH's favor. Punk said some solid stuff to HHH, but Trips just never really sold it, not nearly like Vince did, and it hurt Punk.

 

 

And the usual response to this is, "Well, Punk had to lose because of the COO stipulation." That's dumb. The WWE shouldn't have backed themselves into that corner in the first place, especially because the COO stipulation meant nothing since HHH was so new. The stipulation essentially only served to tell us who would win the match.

 

 

While Cena gets to kick a little Mexican ass outside the cage before being locked out, thereby almost entirely protecting him in the loss. That tells you where the WWE's priorities are, as does...

 

 

Sheamus getting the hero treatment in this match.

 

To be honest, to me, in my opinion, it seems like a couple people here are just desperately spinning things for whatever reason. It's like they're trying to tell me not to believe my lying eyes. We can argue about Punk's future, or about what heights Punk could have gone to immediately after MitB. But there should be no debate about the fact that Punk has been devalued, to some notable degree, either intentionally or not, since MitB. There just can't be debate about that.

 

I completely agree with all of the above, and as far as your last paragraph goes I think it's just a couple people who are simply unable to grasp certain things rather than an attempt to spin things.

[OldStingberg]

Actually Punk said harsher things to HHH. The "reasonable" retort by HHH is actually what helped fuel Punk more. They weren't reasonable. They were bland. So bland that it didn't gain much pops or boos. You could almost hear a pin drop everytime Punk stopped talking and HHH started rambling.

 

Punk said that the WWE will be better off when Vince McMahon is dead and he called Vince out on how much of a hypocrite Vince is with his anti-bullying campaign. Those two things are far, far more serious than any lame "your wife wears the pants in the family" line.

 

And HHH didn't get any pops? At one point, he got the crowd to pop in support of Vince McMahon, and that pop was louder than anything Punk had gotten that segment.

 

And you mistakenly forgot to include things like I dunno, him pinning the WWE champion on a Raw show. Him actually getting the hot tag in a tag team match instead of Cena which has been the obvious long-term formula for whoever Cena tags with. Got the hot tag in that match AND ended up with the pin to close the main-event.

 

You literally just summed up nearly every single highlight Punk has had in the past three months. In three months, the highlights for CM Punk, the hottest wrestler in years, have included getting the pin in a tag team main event on a single Raw, getting a hot-tag in a match on Raw, and (you forgot to mention) getting a laughably crooked pinfall on Cena at SS moments before dropping his title to ADR because of Nash's interference, two guys Punk has yet to get any amount of retribution on.

 

And people are honestly trying to say Punk hasn't been devalued since MitB? Seriously? Seriously? When you have to mention when a guy gets a hot-tag, I mean, come on, that's ridiculous. A hot-tag!

[Stennick]

Just so everyone is aware OSB is completely right in everything he's saying. I don't disagree with a single pronoun in his posts so far.

[JackKnifed72]

Just so everyone is aware OSB is completely right in everything he's saying. I don't disagree with a single pronoun in his posts so far.

 

 

 

 

 

[VTial]

Punk said that the WWE will be better off when Vince McMahon is dead and he called Vince out on how much of a hypocrite Vince is with his anti-bullying campaign. Those two things are far, far more serious than any lame "your wife wears the pants in the family" line.

 

And HHH didn't get any pops? At one point, he got the crowd to pop in support of Vince McMahon, and that pop was louder than anything Punk had gotten that segment.

 

In pro-wrestling, it's not.

 

It's like how silly the exploding car angle was in the past. Even stupid Paul London was rumored for getting fired over that because he was laughing. (Never really bothered to verify if it was true.)

 

Subjects of death in pro-wrestling? Puh-lease. That thing bored itself even way before the casket match was introduced.

 

I really don't want to play semantics. Of course random pops happen but if you judge the feud overall, Punk said more things to HHH other than the wife trashing he mentioned which was often aimed at when Punk was talking to Stephanie anyway. Anytime Punk really tried to do that on HHH was pure after thought after all the meat of the conversations were over and Punk seals it with the classic "whatever exchange you think you've won over me, it will never replace the facts of your legacy."

 

Punk essentially said things that HHH could only sidestep and repeat the talking points of what Cena already tried to pull over Punk. It's like a politician being forced to back around and deflect the questions. It doesn't matter how any random speech pops happen, it was not comfortable and it made you watch.

 

What Punk said to Vince though, considering how overdone the Vince vs. Austin feud was and how recent the Punk speech was, it was the average vs. Vince angle. Some upstart superstar says something bad about Vince. Vince grimaces, does some sort of deal... same old same old. People weren't watching it because there were two guys talking. The ones who don't regularly watch the WWE tune in because Punk recently said something controversial and he just regurgitated that in every Vince encounter they had. On top of that, the whole anti-bullying campaign was something only the smarks would get besides the rare mark who knew what the topic was about. If you simply watched sports entertainment for sports entertainment, Punk said things that the average regular WWE watcher could understand to HHH while the best thing they got from Punk/Vince besides the "vs. the authoritarian" angle is that Vince could have easily been a billionaire and chose to be a millionaire because Punk doesn't have his face on an ice cream cone (whatever that merchandise was) unlike Cena.

 

This doesn't even take into account that Punk's speech was famous not because of Vince or Cena which everyone has heard of before but because of all the little bits he threw in that they later turned into a joke like the manner Laurenitis fired superstars that is now just a bunch of interview talking points that no one is even mentioning in favor of treating it like another regular "oh the writers/HHH/booking didn't do things properly which is why another trending wrestler's hype is derailed once again but once again let's pretend it's something they ruined that is at the same time getting other wrestlers over, blah blah blah." What it really boils down to is that the WWE has messed this up even as Punk was famous for making that speech and majority of us fans have short term memory so we bring up some form "since x PPV" "since x feud" two bit made up theory that never really tries to tell the whole story and then we moan, we rejoice and we moan again and the WWE strings us all for fools.

[bookerman]

A few things:

 

I think on the whole, most of us are underwhelmed with where the Punk stuff went post MiTB. The genesis of what made him interesting (rallying against Vince and Co) has been replaced with determining whether the new figurehead is actually in control or not. It has helped other talents get over (Miz and Truth and weirdly Otunga), but Punk's heat has slowly been drained off. I think a lot of it has to do with the lack of long term planning in WWE. I doubt when the angle started that 3 months later they would have HHH feuding with Miz/Truth/Funkhauser. I don't think they had a clear idea of where they wanted this to go and when in doubt you go with the "safest" plan which is to make a former star the center of the program.

 

 

The fact that Punk was the #1 merch seller should be a BIG indication that the fans are willing to get behind him. I can only hope someone sees this and makes Punk a fixture at the top. Can he carry a company long term? Dunno. Has he shown flashes of ability to be a "draw" and move "merch"? I think so.