The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Fantabulous]

La Parka had so much charisma isn't even funny. It tends to get lost in the general mistreatment of the Mexican workers in WCW, but La Parka was such a wasted resource in WCW. The man knew how to work a crowd and was loaded with charisma and personality.

 

Going strictly by those who worked in WCW, I'd put Eddie, Rey, Juvi, Jericho, Malenko, Ultimo, La Parka, Psicosis, Damien, Super Calo all above Chavo, and there probably a few more as well. Of course, once you go beyond WCW, there are dozens of cruiserweight wrestlers who so much better than Chavo. If you change the definition of a cruiserweight to strict criteria, say, all those called Chavo Guerrero, I can see him hitting the top ten, but otherwise...

[Rone Rivendale]

lol Super Calo. He was the Sabu of luchadores. Botched at least once in every match he ever had. At least in WCW.

[JTandSilentBob]

If Super Calo is the Sabu of cruiserweights then Chavo was the Hardcore Holly. Solid but extremely boring.

 

IMO El Cucaracha was better than Chavo.

 

Honorable mention goes to Psychosis, Disco Inferno, Berlyn, the Yung Dragons, 3 Count, Madusa and Prince Iaukua (sp?)

[ampulator]

If you ask people, back then, in the 90's, who has had better matches with Juventud Guerrera and Rey Mysterio, most people would pick Billy Kidman over Chavo Guerrero. And if you asked who would be future star, most people would pick Billy Kidman over Chavo Guerrero.

 

If someone was mishandled by the WWE, there's many more worthy than Chavo. Lance Storm. Billy Kidman. Juventud Guerrero. Psicosis. Super Crazy. Taka Michinoku. All much more worthy than Chavo.

[Guest codey]

If you ask people, back then, in the 90's, who has had better matches with Juventud Guerrera and Rey Mysterio, most people would pick Billy Kidman over Chavo Guerrero. And if you asked who would be future star, most people would pick Billy Kidman over Chavo Guerrero.

 

If someone was mishandled by the WWE, there's many more worthy than Chavo. Lance Storm. Billy Kidman. Juventud Guerrero. Psicosis. Super Crazy. Taka Michinoku. All much more worthy than Chavo.

 

 

I wouldn't say WWE mishandled Kidman all that much. He was good and one a few cruiserweight titles along with a tag team championship with Paul London, but his look just didn't scream star. In fact, it was completely bland. Long hair/wifebeater/shorts? That was a good look for him. Short hair and generic tights? Not so much.

 

You've got a point with the rest, though they all did get their chances to shine.

[ampulator]

I have always had this opinion-the WWE is missing some old ways of doing things that they should have kept, while missing a lot of opportunities to learn new in order for them to change.

 

And their luck is running out.

[lazorbeak]

I have always had this opinion-the WWE is missing some old ways of doing things that they should have kept, while missing a lot of opportunities to learn new in order for them to change.

 

And their luck is running out.

 

It wouldn't be Christmas without turning an idle debate about Chavo Guerrero's relative quality into a cryptic and outlandish statement about the imminent collapse of wrestling forever! And as much as I like the occasional lucha, the idea that WWE "mishandled" Psichosis or Super Crazy is pretty baffling: short of building a division for them, what are you going to do with tiny guys that can't talk and look less tough than the folks at the local Home Depot? And while Juvi could've been something more, he's sabotaged himself his entire career.

 

Oh and can we add Mr. Aguila/Essa Rios to the list of cruisers light years ahead of Chavo?

[ampulator]

It wouldn't be Christmas without turning an idle debate about Chavo Guerrero's relative quality into a cryptic and outlandish statement about the imminent collapse of wrestling forever! And as much as I like the occasional lucha, the idea that WWE "mishandled" Psichosis or Super Crazy is pretty baffling: short of building a division for them, what are you going to do with tiny guys that can't talk and look less tough than the folks at the local Home Depot? And while Juvi could've been something more, he's sabotaged himself his entire career.

 

Oh and can we add Mr. Aguila/Essa Rios to the list of cruisers light years ahead of Chavo?

It's not about the collapse of wrestling. It's about not doing stupid things. I don't really put too much on what's done right, I put more weight on what's done wrong. No matter how good things someone does, all it takes is one huge screw up to put that all down the drain. I don't mind if something is not perfect, but I do mind if the flaws are not minimized as much as possible.

 

As for Juvi sabotaging his career, I don't disagree, but anything he did, so did many other wrestlers. It's not that fair he didn't receive same leeway they did.

[Wrestling Century]

I stopped paying much attention when he claimed Chavo was one of the best cruiserweights of all time.

 

Ah, but you see, who we think is best is just our opinion. You are acting like your opinion is better than mine, when really, people's opinions can't be good or bad. I was simply stating why I thought Chavo was underrated and IMO is one of the best Cruiserweights of all time. But anyways, I always thought that Super Calo was one of the worst cruiserweights, at least one of the worst ones in WCW's cruiserweight division. He botched all the time, and when he didn't botch his matches were either spotfests or were boring, at least IMO. And Disco Inferno was ok in the ring, but his charisma and gimmick were awesome. I would put Disco Inferno higher than Chavo on my Top Ten list just because of that.

[milamber]

I'd rather talk about Bryan and Ziggler being the main event on SD. Awesome! At least until Teddy Bear turned it into a tag match. Not the best SD in recent memory but it continued the recent trend of WWE pushing newer/younger guys up the card. After a successful Cena-less PPV, I wonder if we'll see a PPV with Orton next year.

[Hashasheen]

Luchadores are not Spot Monkeys. Spot Monkeys copy Luchadors's awesome moments, but without the setups or the other skills to go with being a Luchador, at least, back then.

And plenty of lucha/cruiserweight matches in WCW were little more than spotfests, with luchadores who were incredibly young and new to the business. It's a fact that WCW's cruiserweight division consistently employed larger numbers of younger and greener workers than any other division in the promotion.

 

And La Parka was a much better worker than Chavo in every aspect.

 

He had an edge promo-wise because he spoke English better than the Luchadores (save Eddie). He didn't necessarily have more charisma, though. Eddie Guerrero, Rey Mysterio, Juventud Guerrera, and La Parka had more in that respect. And La Parka had a full body suit on, and we couldn't even see his face.

All right, just to clear up any misunderstandings, here's my top ten WCW cruiserweights list:

 

1. La Parka

2. Chris Jericho

3. Dean Malenko

4. Eddie Guerrero

5. Ultimo Dragon

6. Rey Mysterio

7. Chavo Guerrero

8. Juventud Guerrera

9. Psicosis

10. Billy Kidman

[Fantabulous]

And plenty of lucha/cruiserweight matches in WCW were little more than spotfests, with luchadores who were incredibly young and new to the business. It's a fact that WCW's cruiserweight division consistently employed larger numbers of younger and greener workers than any other division in the promotion.

 

The Luchadores might have been young but they were far from 'new to the business'. The fact is they had plenty of experience, likely far more than their American equivalent who had the same number of years in the business, due to the frequency of shows they run in Mexico. What's not a fact is is the claim that "WCW's cruiserweight division consistently employed larger numbers of younger and greener workers than any other division in the promotion". They had a few young and green guys in that division, but most of the young and green talent WCW used was in the heavyweight Division; does the name the Natural Born Thrillers mean anything to you? A bunch guys green as grass with barely any time in the business and not one of them competed in the Cruiserweight division. Heck, during their more belt-tightening days in the 90s, it was the Heavyweight division who got the cheap labour.

[djthefunkchris]

Ah, but you see, who we think is best is just our opinion.

 

/nod. One man's trash is another man's treasure. This has been proven over and over again. I've said this before, but I do believe it to be true... I think when we talk about wrestler's, quite a bit of the time we are comparing their "stats" to game stats, something that doesn't really exist in the "real" world.

 

You can take any talent, find the things that work for them, and utilize them in such a way to get the best reactions, and people like The Warrior can become huge in the bussiness. I feel that most of wrestling just uses what the person brings to the table, and goes with that most of the time. In other words, I don't think everyone gets with the "creative" team, and goes over their qualities to figure out what might work better for them... although I'm sure some of them do (the one's already doing well more then likely).

 

I could take a group of wrestler's, give them all specific gimmicks, and have them work them gimmicks so that they are believable (providing they do have some talent in those area's), and presto.. You can take the worse of the 10, make that person be the "Technician", and the best of the 10, and make him into "Santino". IF you run the match's correctly, that guy that has the least technical ability of them all, will look as though he is worlds above the better technicians. The best technician might be the guy you only let do three moves.

 

It's a matter of opinion, unless you know the persons full capacity/bassically, know the person on a personal level and have had the priviledge of seeing everything that person is capable of, not just what the promotions he's worked for has him do.

 

With the Indie scenes, especially the very small promotions, I'm sure your seeing quite a bit more of what a person is really able to do, then what you see in bigger promotions, that write and tell stories, and make the gimmicks for the wrestler's rather then the wrestler providing the gimmick himself.

[Rone Rivendale]

With the Indie scenes, especially the very small promotions, I'm sure your seeing quite a bit more of what a person is really able to do, then what you see in bigger promotions, that write and tell stories, and make the gimmicks for the wrestler's rather then the wrestler providing the gimmick himself.

 

And that's why I love Indie wrestling. Also why I love Japanese wrestling. And what little Mexican Lucha I've been able to see.

 

WWE might be slowly going in that direction though. The backlash from removing 'wrestling' from their product was pretty bad. And now we got people like Daniel Bryan and CM Punk as World Champions.

[ampulator]

/nod. One man's trash is another man's treasure. This has been proven over and over again. I've said this before, but I do believe it to be true... I think when we talk about wrestler's, quite a bit of the time we are comparing their "stats" to game stats, something that doesn't really exist in the "real" world.

"That's my opinion" is equivalent of saying "Just about everything is subjective". And I don't believe that. Everyone is entitled their own opinion, yes, but some opinion are more wrong than others, especially the ones that don't correctly justify their opinions. It's a cop-out. It's also a way of saying "it's my opinion so no one, not even myself, can critically evaluate it", which I believe promotes uncritical, and perhaps even, lazier, thinking.

 

And plenty of lucha/cruiserweight matches in WCW were little more than spotfests, with luchadores who were incredibly young and new to the business. It's a fact that WCW's cruiserweight division consistently employed larger numbers of younger and greener workers than any other division in the promotion.

 

All right, just to clear up any misunderstandings, here's my top ten WCW cruiserweights list:

 

1. La Parka

2. Chris Jericho

3. Dean Malenko

4. Eddie Guerrero

5. Ultimo Dragon

6. Rey Mysterio

7. Chavo Guerrero

8. Juventud Guerrera

9. Psicosis

10. Billy Kidman

 

Why did you rank Chavo Guerrero above Juventud Guerera? I can sort of understand the argument for Psicosis and Billy Kidman, But Juventud? Really?

[Teh_Showtime]

Jericho ruined Juvi for me. I didn't like him much after he lost his mask for some reason.

[ampulator]

Jericho ruined Juvi for me. I didn't like him much after he lost his mask for some reason.

Are you sure it was Jericho's idea? It was probably some bone-headed thing that WCW wanted to do.

 

But to be fair, Juventud seemed to enjoy, even relish, the opportunity to be nonmasked wrestler. There were several matches were there more cheers and pops for him over Eddie Guerrero. He's the only Luchador in WCW that seemed to do as good, sometimes better, without his mask. His only issue? Juventud is one crazy dude.

[BHK1978]

All right, just to clear up any misunderstandings, here's my top ten WCW cruiserweights list:

 

1. La Parka

2. Chris Jericho

3. Dean Malenko

4. Eddie Guerrero

5. Ultimo Dragon

6. Rey Mysterio

7. Chavo Guerrero

8. Juventud Guerrera

9. Psicosis

10. Billy Kidman

 

No Brian Pillman on that list? I mean I might have not liked the guy but he was one hell of a worker.

 

/nod. One man's trash is another man's treasure. This has been proven over and over again. I've said this before, but I do believe it to be true... I think when we talk about wrestler's, quite a bit of the time we are comparing their "stats" to game stats, something that doesn't really exist in the "real" world.

 

You can take any talent, find the things that work for them, and utilize them in such a way to get the best reactions, and people like The Warrior can become huge in the bussiness. I feel that most of wrestling just uses what the person brings to the table, and goes with that most of the time. In other words, I don't think everyone gets with the "creative" team, and goes over their qualities to figure out what might work better for them... although I'm sure some of them do (the one's already doing well more then likely).

 

I agree with this because it happens in not just wrestling but other sports as well. A prime example of this is Joe Torre, before he became the manager of the Yankees he was not considered a great manager. In fact, upon being hired as manager the New York press ripped Steinbrenner for hiring him.

 

Well he went onto to win four World Series in five years. He was put in the right situation with the right team that allowed him to shine.

 

In football you have Bill Belichick, who as coach of the Browns stunk up the joint. However, after he made the move to the Patriots he is now thought of as a genius on the level of Lombardi or Landry. He is still the same coach that sucked when he ran the Browns but because he was put in the right situation he was able to become a winner.

 

Look at wrestling, I often see the WWF talk about how stupid it was for WCW to give up on Steve Austin. That is total hindsight, because there was no way to know that Steve Austin would become one of the biggest stars (If not the biggest star.) in the history of wrestling at the time WCW fired him. Steve was at the right place at the right time for his character to flourish. If he would have come into the WWF as Stunning Steve Austin he could have very well ended up as a footnote.

[The Final Countdown]

Ooh, ooh, I wanna play!

 

My top 10 WCW Cruiserweights:

 

1. Chris Jericho (his promos as Cruiserweight champ cemented me as a Jerichoholic for life)

2. Rey Mysterio Jr.

3. Eddie Guerrero

4. Ultimo Dragon

5. Dean Malenko

6. Juventud Guerrera

7. Billy Kidman

8. Psychosis

9. Shane Helms

10. Chavo Guerrero Jr.

 

I wouldn't have expected Chavito to make my top 10, but he just barely slipped in. There are other guys who held the Cruiser title in WCW that I'd put above him. Lance Storm, in particular, would probably be 5th or 6th on my list, but I didn't include him because I don't really think of his Cruiserweight stuff when I think of Storm in WCW.

[ampulator]

I wouldn't have expected Chavito to make my top 10, but he just barely slipped in. There are other guys who held the Cruiser title in WCW that I'd put above him. Lance Storm, in particular, would probably be 5th or 6th on my list, but I didn't include him because I don't really think of his Cruiserweight stuff when I think of Storm in WCW.

Lance Storm would have been on that list, had he came in earlier and actually wrestled with more cruiserweights. He came in right around when Russo came in. I don't think I need to talk about Russo more than that..

 

But I would have put Jimmy Yang and/or Jamie Knoble over Chavo anyway.

[The Final Countdown]

Lance Storm would have been on that list, had he came in earlier and actually wrestled with more cruiserweights. He came in right around when Russo came in. I don't think I need to talk about Russo more than that..

 

But I would have put Jimmy Yang and/or Jamie Knoble over Chavo anyway.

Hmm...I didn't think of Knoble, but yeah, I might rank him over Chavo too. Though my high opinion of him has more to do with his run in ROH than anything else.

[ampulator]

Don't forget about Kaz Hayashi. That dude was awesome. Totally misused.

[Hashasheen]

The Luchadores might have been young but they were far from 'new to the business'. The fact is they had plenty of experience, likely far more than their American equivalent who had the same number of years in the business, due to the frequency of shows they run in Mexico.

And yet a lot of them simply did not exhibit or show an understanding of storytelling or psychology in their matches that other luchadores did. Whether that was due to their greeness or some other factor such match-booking can be debated further. Though I'll grant you their issues were far less obvious than North American workers brought in, for the very reason you mention.

 

What's not a fact is is the claim that "WCW's cruiserweight division consistently employed larger numbers of younger and greener workers than any other division in the promotion". They had a few young and green guys in that division, but most of the young and green talent WCW used was in the heavyweight Division; does the name the Natural Born Thrillers mean anything to you? A bunch guys green as grass with barely any time in the business and not one of them competed in the Cruiserweight division.

1. The Thrillers were seven guys, Mike Sanders competed in the Cruiserweight Division, and Shawn Stasiak had been working for two years and had even been in the WWF with a relatively minor push.

2. I count the Jung Dragons (minus Hayashi), 3-Count, Air Raid, Elix Skipper, Blitzkrieg, James Storm, Chris Harris, Lash LeRoux (came in green as shit, came out much better), Alan Funk, Lodi and Lane, Sonny Siaki, and Sharkboy. Not to mention Ultimo Dragon's students who came in in 1998 for a few matches.

 

Heck, during their more belt-tightening days in the 90s, it was the Heavyweight division who got the cheap labour.

Pretty sure most the Heavyweights and Tag Team jobbers were ex-AWA, SMW, ECW, WWF, WCCW, NWA veterans and a few from Puerto Rico. Guys like Destruction Crew, the Texas Hangmen/Disorderly Conduct, Greg Valentine, Mike Khoury, Todd Passmore, The Armstrongs, PG-13, Scott Norton, Barry Darsow, Rock and Roll'Express etc...

 

Besides those who came up from the Power Plant, a lot of the guys working for WCW were veterans on their last run cashing pay-checks.

 

No Brian Pillman on that list? I mean I might have not liked the guy but he was one hell of a worker.

I find it very hard to think of him as a cruiserweight for some reason. I recognise him much better for his loose cannon/hollywood blond periods.

 

Why did you rank Chavo Guerrero above Juventud Guerera? I can sort of understand the argument for Psicosis and Billy Kidman, But Juventud? Really?

My opinion of the Juice tends to go up and down. For the sake giving a stable list, I kept him where he was. At times, he tends to go above Rey.

[Fantabulous]

Are you sure it was Jericho's idea? It was probably some bone-headed thing that WCW wanted to do.

 

But to be fair, Juventud seemed to enjoy, even relish, the opportunity to be nonmasked wrestler. There were several matches were there more cheers and pops for him over Eddie Guerrero. He's the only Luchador in WCW that seemed to do as good, sometimes better, without his mask. His only issue? Juventud is one crazy dude.

 

It was WCW's idea and Juvi hated losing his mask, as did all of the Luchadores who had their masks taken off of them in WCW. He tried his best to not lose the mask but WCW, specifically Eric Bischoff, didn't think too highly of masked wrestlers and there was nothing he could do.

 

I forgot about Kidman, Hayashi and even Storm, so there are more guys who rank ahead of Chavo.

[ampulator]

It was WCW's idea and Juvi hated losing his mask, as did all of the Luchadores who had their masks taken off of them in WCW. He tried his best to not lose the mask but WCW, specifically Eric Bischoff, didn't think too highly of masked wrestlers and there was nothing he could do.

 

I forgot about Kidman, Hayashi and even Storm, so there are more guys who rank ahead of Chavo.

Thanks for correcting me. But to be honest, he seemed to do just as well without the mask on. In fact, he seemed like as good of, in a better, worker.

 

Here's the thing though, did La Parka ever lose his mask? I don't recall that he did, but it's unusual that they didn't go there. And you know, they said he was around 230ish, but he always looked like he was more 240ish to me.