The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Hyde Hill]

Hehe around 2002 Stephanie taking over creative from Kreski (severely underrated and under appreciated) and 2004 Ace taking over from JR in talent relations. All downhill since then.

[Fantabulous]

Hehe around 2002 Stephanie taking over creative from Kreski (severely underrated and under appreciated) and 2004 Ace taking over from JR in talent relations. All downhill since then.

 

Stephanie took over as head of creative in 2000, just before the Angle/Stephanie/Triple H love triangle storyline crashed and burned. Quite the coincidence, isn't it?

 

You're also right about Kreski being underapperciated. Kreski is a guy who rarely gets his due.

[Hyde Hill]

Yeah info is a bit fuzzy on when Steph got full power, she was added in 2000 but in 2002 Kreski left and she gained sole power. Kreski by just looking at the numbers is the most successful booker/writer ever and was a big part of MTV becoming cool in the 90s.

[Astil]

Hehe around 2002 Stephanie taking over creative from Kreski (severely underrated and under appreciated) and 2004 Ace taking over from JR in talent relations. All downhill since then.

 

Yeah! Much rather have JR's hires than Punk, Daniels, Sheamus, Black, Claudio, Hero...wait...

[Hyde Hill]

Yeah! Much rather have JR's hires than Punk, Daniels, Sheamus, Black, Claudio, Hero...wait...

 

Oooh indy favorites over Cena, Orton, Batista and Lesnar and countless others. Plus while most where hired under his management they where not hired because of him. Punk was brought in by Heyman and the others Trips.

[Astil]

Oooh indy favorites over Cena, Orton, Batista and Lesnar and countless others. Plus while most where hired under his management they where not hired because of him. Punk was brought in by Heyman and the others Trips.

 

Lesanr was Heyman as well and I don't think Cena was JR. I'm just saying modern wrestling has better "talent" then the early 2000s.

 

The fact that you had to include Orton and Batista proves my point.

[Hyde Hill]

Lesanr was Heyman as well and I don't think Cena was JR. I'm just saying modern wrestling has better "talent" then the early 2000s.

 

The fact that you had to include Orton and Batista proves my point.

 

Better workers (not wrestlers) and bigger stars then all except Punk. Lesnar was hired by JR but pushed by Heyman, Punk was pushed to be hired by Heyman despite Laurinitas objections. Oh yeah Attitude era hires almost all J.R. All those other better wrestlers HHH not Laurinitas.

 

Just look at any shoot and what they have to say about Ace, not just the wrestlers he fired as you can classify them as bitter but the people that had to work with/under him. Tommy Dreamer has some great stuff on Laurinitas hiring practices. And off course Cornette but yeah he likes to spout off a bit too much.

[Jaysin]

Randomly watching Goldberg vs Evolution.

 

I hated HHH's stupid short tights so much that I completely forgot about them. God he looks stupid.

[lazorbeak]

Yeah! Much rather have JR's hires than Punk, Daniels, Sheamus, Black, Claudio, Hero...wait...

 

Yeah two of those guys haven't even debuted, and the ratio of talent under his run has not been particularly good.

 

 

But to be fair, it was a lot easier to scout talent in 2001 and before then 2004 and afterwards, considering the big influx of new talent during the wrestling boom of the late 90's.

[Astil]

Yeah two of those guys haven't even debuted, and the ratio of talent under his run have not been particularly good.

 

 

But to be fair, it was a lot easier to scout talent in 2001 and before then 2004 and afterwards, considering the big influx of new talent during the wrestling boom of the late 90's.

 

True, but they are talent. Moxley/Ambrose as well.

[Hyde Hill]

I am not denying there hasn't been talent hired by WWE since 2004 just that most where despite Ace or not hired by Ace and that the talent hired by JR has performed better. Yes it has become harder to hire new talent with the death of competition and the very slow rise of new competition and the influx of talent after the monday night wars era became less. So yes a lot of factors play into it. But track record wise and reputation wise J.R. just did a hell of a better job.

[Makhai]

True, but they are talent. Moxley/Ambrose as well.

 

If you are the talent evaluator for the WWE, you literally have the whole world to choose from and 200 slots to fill. Your grandmother could find CM Punk and Bryan Danielson; Those are no-brainer hires. Where you earn your stripes is in the midcard and bellow. Having the balls to bring in failures with upside, that you're willing to fight for night-in and night-out, that's where you earn your stripes. Steve Austin and Mick Foley are perfect (and tired) examples... But I bring them up only because I can't think of a time when the WWE took these kind of chances last.

 

Which is the biggest indictment of talent evaluation at the company and why any attempt to tell me JR isn't miles ahead of anybody that has come before or after him in the role either wasn't a wrestling fan in the 90s or doesn't have a head on their shoulders. Point blank.

[milamber]

Sin Cara v Drew McIntyre - Welcome back for another losing streak, Drew. Not a bad match (less weak-looking hurricanranas and arm drags than last

week). But Sin Cara needs to lose occasionally -- where's the motivation to support him if you know he's never going to lose 1-on-1?

 

The best part of Ryback matches is the commentary. Cole - "Talk about whiplash!" Booker - "Was that Kevin or Tony?" Josh - "It doesn't matter at this point."

 

Christian v Ziggler - Really good match. I'm glad they addressed Christian's sudden face turn. I was already digging the Christian v Rhodes feud. Adding Ziggler to mix would make it even better. Triple Threat IC match at Over the Limit?

 

Ricardo Sheamus and Hornswoggle JR were kind of funny.

 

Sandow takes down another miscreant!

 

Cesaro v Uso - I was beginning to worry Cesaro was going to be forgotten.

 

Sheamus v Kane - Decent match with a predictable interference ending. Funny to see Kane ogling AJ.

 

Average SD (which isn't a bad thing) that would have been better if Bryan was on it.

[ampulator]

If you are the talent evaluator for the WWE, you literally have the whole world to choose from and 200 slots to fill. Your grandmother could find CM Punk and Bryan Danielson; Those are no-brainer hires. Where you earn your stripes is in the midcard and bellow. Having the balls to bring in failures with upside, that you're willing to fight for night-in and night-out, that's where you earn your stripes. Steve Austin and Mick Foley are perfect (and tired) examples... But I bring them up only because I can't think of a time when the WWE took these kind of chances last.

 

Which is the biggest indictment of talent evaluation at the company and why any attempt to tell me JR isn't miles ahead of anybody that has come before or after him in the role either wasn't a wrestling fan in the 90s or doesn't have a head on their shoulders. Point blank.

The problem isn't talent or they find them. This probably easier than it used to be. Tons of talent. Not exactly hard to evaluate and find talent -there's more tools than there ever was. It's how they use them and they push them, that's the problem. It's the problem WCW used to have - tons of talent, but tons of bad booking and talent usage.

 

In terms of the baseline minimum, I think today's workers are not as bad as they used to be - but also not as good as it used to be either. In other words, workers tend to be minimally trained not to screw up and hurt someone - but also not going to do something that would truly interest the fans because they are trained to tow the line and do what the top management, rather than react to what the crowd wants. Instead of these huge cluster****s of the past that we've seen on Botchamania AND the awesome matches of Flair vs. Steamboat, we get a bunch of "meh" stuff instead. Nothing too screwed up, but nothing all that interesting, either.

[Jaysin]

http://www.lordsofpain.net/news/wwe/Former_Announcer_Says_WWE_Wants_To_Get_Rid_Of_Randy_Orton_Permanently.html

 

Mark Madden claims WWE is going to fire Orton. Then again, why would anyone believe a single thing Mark Madden says? And for that matter, why would anyone bother to report it?

[MacIsaacM]

Depends how you view this "talent" though. For any other Canadians in the audience, The Score does a post-show recap with two Score folks and Jimmy Korderas, and they all agreed that the "next batch" that is currently either on NXT or slowly being called up to Smackdown gives us something to be excited about, and I couldn't agree more. If these guys have been working together for the past few years, and then finally earn a permanent spot on RAW and Smackdown, I think we're in store for some electrifying years in wrestling that I, at least, feel have been missing.

[cappyboy]

http://www.lordsofpain.net/news/wwe/Former_Announcer_Says_WWE_Wants_To_Get_Rid_Of_Randy_Orton_Permanently.html

 

Mark Madden claims WWE is going to fire Orton. Then again, why would anyone believe a single thing Mark Madden says? And for that matter, why would anyone bother to report it?

 

I know. I haven't taken a single word that oaf said seriously since he prematurely declared Bruno Sammartino dead on Nitro in like 99 or 2000.

[Makhai]

The problem isn't talent or they find them. This probably easier than it used to be. Tons of talent. Not exactly hard to evaluate and find talent -there's more tools than there ever was. It's how they use them and they push them, that's the problem. It's the problem WCW used to have - tons of talent, but tons of bad booking and talent usage.

 

In terms of the baseline minimum, I think today's workers are not as bad as they used to be - but also not as good as it used to be either. In other words, workers tend to be minimally trained not to screw up and hurt someone - but also not going to do something that would truly interest the fans because they are trained to tow the line and do what the top management, rather than react to what the crowd wants. Instead of these huge cluster****s of the past that we've seen on Botchamania AND the awesome matches of Flair vs. Steamboat, we get a bunch of "meh" stuff instead. Nothing too screwed up, but nothing all that interesting, either.

 

This is a fair way of looking at it. The WWE has definitely accentuated safety, and in so doing, deemphasized dynamism. Which makes every match on the card boring and homogeneous. Matches today play out just to "get all my cool stuff in" and not to "tell stories" or to build drama.

 

Hell, even 1980s Hulk Hogan had better in-ring psychology than these guys do. Which is really, really sad.

[Hyde Hill]

Depending on how you define Psychology Hogan has one of the best ever. For instance if calling in the ring is the main tenant of Psychology Flair would be real low. But that is a very very long and unsolvable debate.

 

But yeah the crop that Trips has hired looks promising its more the bleak years 2004 - 2011 that where ugh with some exceptions despite Johnny. And off course it is how you use them but also finding the right guys and guys that have own ideas or can make the most of the time they do get.

 

Looking at it in both TEW and Sports terms can't get great results with bad workers or workers that don't fit the product in TEW. And with sports if management doesn't get the right players you can have the best coach around and he will perform above expectations but still won't win much long term.

[milamber]

Say what you will about Orton but the crowds still go nuts for his entrance and RKOs.

 

It wouldn't be a great loss, aside from merch sales. Problem is a lack of top faces. Sheamus would take his place as #1 on SD. Christian would have to bumped up to #2 and someone like Miz would have to be turned face to head up the midcard. I wopuld hate it if they turned Bryan face again so soon.

[Wrestling Century]

I could honestly care less about whether or not they fire Orton. IMO the creative team doesn't really know what to do with him as a babyface. He hasn't had a notable fued ever since his fued with Christian, and they just throw him in any fued/match whenever they want, for seemingly no rhyme or reason. To be perfectly honest, he hasn't done anything truly notable or really entertaining ever since he turned face.

[Target Practice]

someone like Miz would have to be turned face to head up the midcard.

 

Oh god yes. I love Miz, and although I don't think he's a great face, I'd rather see him being used as a face than not being used as a heel.

 

Either that or Cody Rhodes. I actually thought they were going to turn him in the aftermath of his 'Mania match with Show, but I guess they changed their minds or something - probably to do with the entire Lesnar debacle and needing to divert Show to a feud with Cena.

[Astil]

To those who mentioned Ace is a terrible hirer I agree. Thought we were having a different argument.

 

If you are the talent evaluator for the WWE, you literally have the whole world to choose from and 200 slots to fill. Your grandmother could find CM Punk and Bryan Danielson; Those are no-brainer hires. Where you earn your stripes is in the midcard and bellow. Having the balls to bring in failures with upside, that you're willing to fight for night-in and night-out, that's where you earn your stripes. Steve Austin and Mick Foley are perfect (and tired) examples... But I bring them up only because I can't think of a time when the WWE took these kind of chances last.

 

Which is the biggest indictment of talent evaluation at the company and why any attempt to tell me JR isn't miles ahead of anybody that has come before or after him in the role either wasn't a wrestling fan in the 90s or doesn't have a head on their shoulders. Point blank.

 

Aaron Stevens/Damien Sandow comes to mind as one. Also if they are bringing in Shelley like reported he is one as well. As is R-Truth for that matter.

[Stennick]

If you are the talent evaluator for the WWE, you literally have the whole world to choose from and 200 slots to fill. Your grandmother could find CM Punk and Bryan Danielson; Those are no-brainer hires.

 

Everyone including the indy marks would say how great of a talent Bryan was but the truth is Bryan wasn't going to get 45 minutes a night to showcase his wrestling ability. He was going to have to go in there and do in seven or ten what he was used to doing in 45. He was going to have to completely dull down his offense and somehow find a way to captivate millions of people with his talking ability. Thats not exactly something that he had displayed before. Bryan was not near big enough not near charasmatic enough and was the poster boy for indy wrestling all things that seemed to doom him for any success. Its easy to hire the guy in TEW and bush him to feud with Chris Benoit or whoever you would push him to feud with way back in the day but in reality there was no evidence Bryan would become what he's become outside of ROhbots.

 

As for Punk he too was not a "no brainer" CM Punk was playing himself on the indy scene where he was able to wrestle for ninety minutes. What were the odds the WWE would let him be CM Punk would let him be himself and again how was he going to go from indy worker extroidinare to WWE main event style and make it work. These guys were talented but no where near "no brainers".

 

Where you earn your stripes is in the midcard and bellow. Having the balls to bring in failures with upside, that you're willing to fight for night-in and night-out, that's where you earn your stripes. Steve Austin and Mick Foley are perfect (and tired) examples... But I bring them up only because I can't think of a time when the WWE took these kind of chances last.

 

Steve Austin and Mick Foley were less chances than Bryan and Punk. Austin was being GROOMED to be the next Ric Flair. He had Ric Flair's seal of approval he got over huge and was one of the top stars in WCW. In fact the only thing that killed him is coming into the WWE and instead of being allowed to be Stunning Steve Austin in some regard he was forced into being the Ringmaster and have someone do all his talking. Foley main evented SEVERAL WCW Pay Per Views including the first ever Bash at the Beach (then titled Beach Blast) against Sting for the WCW Championship. He was involved in high profile feuds with Vader and the guy was constantly pushed towards the top of the card as a monster heel. Neither one of these guys were "diamonds in the rough" by the time WWE had gotten ahold of them both of them had been in high proflile pay per view main events for years seen by millions of people not exactly nobodies.

 

Which is the biggest indictment of talent evaluation at the company and why any attempt to tell me JR isn't miles ahead of anybody that has come before or after him in the role either wasn't a wrestling fan in the 90s or doesn't have a head on their shoulders. Point blank.

 

JR had it very easy. Pro Wrestlling was at its height in popularity and lots of great athletes WANTED to be pro wrestlers in the late ninties. There was no MMA to compete with. There was no reality TV to compete with. The product wasn't near as bland and creative was much better at giving guys a chance to be themselves. JR was certainly great in his role.

 

Dolph Ziggler, Jack Swagger, The Miz, Daniel Bryan, CM Punk, Chris Hero, Wade Barrett, Evan Bourne, Santino Marella, Kofi Kingston, R Truth I could go on but these are all people that have been hired on since John took over the role in 2004 from Jim Ross. Are all of these guys world champions? Certainly not but the lot of them have gotten seriously in some capacity or another. So its not like John has fallen flat on his face and again whos to stay which other men would or would have been break out stars of the product was different. Pro Wrestling is so much more than finding talent like anything you have to know what to do with that talent once its found and thats not John's department. Did he sign Brock Orton Cena Angle and other huge stars? Certainly not but if Bryan and Punk were no brainers I would think not signing Brock and Angle would be grounds to get a man fired.

 

Anyway I think John's done an excellent job finding and evaluating talent even if its not fun to say that.

[Astil]

Where was CM Punk fighting 90 minute matches?