The Official TNA / Impact / GFW Discussion Thread

[Stennick]

I go away for a few days and once again we're right back to TNA's business side of things. Its a fun subject however since TNA refuses to truly disclose just how much money they are bringing in and sending out you only get one side of the coin. Here is what I do know.

 

I've seen comparisons to sports so lets look at the UFL. They are by default the second biggest pro football league in the United States. They are in their second year of operation and the owners of the league must invest 30 million. I would say that this is all rougly equal to what TNA has. As of the end of 2007 TNA had LOST 35 million on TNA. That would mean they had lost nearly 9 million a year. I'd say it wouldn't be a huge stretch to say they have taken in atleast double that and maybe more. Point is 30 million upfront to be the owner of TNA would make sense.

 

In 2010 the UFL aired 40 games. TNA runs what? 52 Impacts a year? So thats essentially the same amount of television "shows".

 

Here is where they start to split though. The UFL ran their shows on HDnet and the Versus channel. Although HDnet doesn't release ratings only 46% of homes in the United States have HD programming ability and HDnet is not in all of those homes. So at the very best the UFL is seen in 30-35% of homes in America. The Versus channel and the UFL release ratings for last years games and they debuted with 200,000 viewers but dropped to 100,000 and then 80,000 for the final few weeks. The championship game was watched by 100,000 people. TNA has a television show that was just viewed by 1.6 million people. For those of us that don't want to do the math TNA Impact is seen by 16 times the number of people the UFL is seen by. Again both of these companies have roughly the same amount of money dealt to and available to them. Both of them are the number two companies in their fields. Football is well more popular than wrestling and yet TNA is a lot closer in viewership to the WWE than the UFL is to the NFL.

 

All of that being said the average salary for a UFL player is 35,000 that doesn't include bonus, merchandise, more pay for playoffs. For instance just for winning the championship you get 50,000. The loser gets 20,000. Again there is merchandise, bonuses, all of which could send just a lowly Punter upwards around 100,000 dollars a year. If ever there was an "extra" in pro football you would think it would be the Punter. So tell me how the UFL does a BASE of 35,000 for ALL their players and yet TNA doesn't come close to matching this for their mid carders.

 

TNA is seen by 16 times the amount of people that the UFL is, they put on roughly the same amount of television as each other. Its pretty sad that a football league that most of the world doesn't know exists and doesn't make NEAR the money TNA does can pay its employees more than TNA can.

 

Also raise your hand if you would be ok with making 20,000 a year from TNA and then when you go and work say PWG and some other indy's on in your off time to make up the differnce TNA then comes to you wanting a cut of THAT money even if they had nothing do with it. If you work at McDonalds you're making minimum wage. You're not exclusive to them so you go out and get a job at Hardee's making min wage on the weekends you're not at McDonalds. How would you feel if McDonalds said "since you work for us we want some of the money you make working for Hardees". You would flip out but yet its ok when TNA does this......sometimes this board has a very strong "this is ok as long as its not me" mentality.

 

Not directed at anyone in particular but the people that are actually ok with TNA's treatment towards women's division which by the way out draws all of the males on a semi regular basis....or did before you know they gutted it seven or eight different times. Its funny that they do this to women saying they can put anyone in that spot and draw the same ratings yet they have shown that even if Angle, Anderson, Hogan, Jarrett, Foley, no matter WHO is gone from that company they do the EXACT same ratings with or without them yet they pay them more. Yet when it comes to the women they say "we can find anyone to fill this role and get the same ratings" that was their reason for not resigning some of these women. Just goes to show you how delusional TNA is because I got news for them they could put Jesse Neal vs. Shark Boy in the main event and they're still going to draw that 1.0 and million fans they always draw.

 

Stay classy TNA

[juggaloninjalee]

WWE and TNA both should pay their wrestlers better. I think they should offer medical benefits too.

[Stennick]

Best I can tell the WWE pays for surgery and what not if it happens in their ring. TNA will not pay for an injury the best they will do is give the wrestler a loan and then remove payments from their paychecks.

[PeterHilton]

Agree with everything you wrote and I think UFL is a good comparison. If a league with that many players and so few viewers can afford a $ 35 K baseline, then it's a pretty good example of how low 35 K really is.

 

And last I checked, when those teams go on the road, they don't go ask their players to provide their own travel and boarding plans.

 

Not directed at anyone in particular but the people that are actually ok with TNA's treatment towards women's division which by the way out draws all of the males on a semi regular basis....or did before you know they gutted it seven or eight different times. Its funny that they do this to women saying they can put anyone in that spot and draw the same ratings yet they have shown that even if Angle, Anderson, Hogan, Jarrett, Foley, no matter WHO is gone from that company they do the EXACT same ratings with or without them yet they pay them more. Yet when it comes to the women they say "we can find anyone to fill this role and get the same ratings" that was their reason for not resigning some of these women. Just goes to show you how delusional TNA is because I got news for them they could put Jesse Neal vs. Shark Boy in the main event and they're still going to draw that 1.0 and million fans they always draw.

 

Stay classy TNA

 

I think the mentality is also based on the fact they know that there's no option out there. Their hottest acts in recent years have been The Beautiful People and Kong. But they knew that neither was going to find 'better treatment/more money' in the WWE.

 

Kong..? in the E....? not happening.

 

And TBP probably would've worked, especially the Rayne/Sky version. But the writers obviously saw the act, copied it, and gave it to LayCool...so now that's not happening.

 

They are taking advantage of the fact that females in the industry have limited options.

 

WWE and TNA both should pay their wrestlers better. I think they should offer medical benefits too.

 

Insurance carriers won't touch wrestlers. So they can't offer true 'medical benefits' . However...

 

Best I can tell the WWE pays for surgery and what not if it happens in their ring. TNA will not pay for an injury the best they will do is give the wrestler a loan and then remove payments from their paychecks.

 

This is what I've been saying.

[Hyde Hill]

Really overestimating what the women where drawing here. And I am a fan of the women. One of the main reason their rating averages where so high was the fact they got slotted in quarter hour 5. Which in general is a very high rated slot. Yes they are an attraction and yes I like the women's division but just because their segment has high average ratings mainly due to it being in q5 that is why they deserve a lot more money?

 

On the subcontractor thing. The talent who have that clause in their contract get paid a higher base salary. They can get a contract without that clause for a lower salary. As long as the whole independent contractor system is still in play this is normal. Also the cut isn't a huge amount it's like 10 percent or a base amount of administrative costs.

 

Look the whole independent contractor system is BS agreed. But TNA being especially foul? Nope. And as long as we don't have any reel info we are taking shots in the dark here. Even using UFL averages by comparisons doesn't fly because we are talking about the undercard here not the main eventers. For all we know TNA's averages are higher but there is a steeper pay scale. Why? Because that is how wrestling and entertainment (not team sports) work atm.

 

Ad to that that TNA is exactly in that middle position atm. They can't pay all the surgeries as its too expensive but they do generate a hell of a lot more exposure then any indy which causes their talent to be more over. Plus that talent can then get injured at someone else's show or get booked wrongly etc.

[PeterHilton]

Really overestimating what the women where drawing here. And I am a fan of the women. One of the main reason their rating averages where so high was the fact they got slotted in quarter hour 5. Which in general is a very high rated slot. Yes they are an attraction and yes I like the women's division but just because their segment has high average ratings mainly due to it being in q5 that is why they deserve a lot more money?

 

In TNA's case specifically? TBP have been a draw since the group formed and at the very least they (Love, Rayne,Sky ) should be making a lot more. Not "Jeff Hardy" more but more than the Rob Terrys of the world

 

On the subcontractor thing. The talent who have that clause in their contract get paid a higher base salary. They can get a contract without that clause for a lower salary. As long as the whole independent contractor system is still in play this is normal. Also the cut isn't a huge amount it's like 10 percent or a base amount of administrative costs.

 

Look the whole independent contractor system is BS agreed. But TNA being especially foul? Nope. And as long as we don't have any reel info we are taking shots in the dark here. Even using UFL averages by comparisons doesn't fly because we are talking about the undercard here not the main eventers. For all we know TNA's averages are higher but there is a steeper pay scale. Why? Because that is how wrestling and entertainment (not team sports) work atm.

 

Ad to that that TNA is exactly in that middle position atm. They can't pay all the surgeries as its too expensive but they do generate a hell of a lot more exposure then any indy which causes their talent to be more over. Plus that talent can then get injured at someone else's show or get booked wrongly etc.

 

 

How much is TNA's cut of the booking fee is argued about a lot. Promoters have said that it's exorbitant but who knows?

 

The steeper pay scale isn't the issue. It's the combination of 'steep pay scale PLUS we don't pay for your surgeries PLUS a clause that makes it less likely you'll be getting booked on your off-days.'

 

Those things together lead me to feel like TNA takes advantage of its lower end workers. Like I said...it's a shame that the exposure seems to be the only thing TNA offers to unknown workers as a possible benefit of signing up.

 

I mean..you'd think that going from wrestling in front of dozen fans in a gym to wrestling on national TV would mean a better standard of living.

[Bigpapa42]

If the numbers I've read are accurate, the WWE is paying guys in development as much or more than TNA is paying some of its main roster talent. That's kinda ridiculous when you think about it.

[Stennick]

My point was that TNA didn't pay their women because "anyone can get that same rating". Which is completely true and I agree the women aren't that huge of a deal although their a big enough deal that TNA was in talks of a second show based around the Knockouts when they had Flash, Kong, Gail, etc. so yes TNA for sure saw some serious value in them and promoted the hell out of them being "different". Insert everything they said about the X Division in 03 and plug it into 08 for the KO's. My point was that their basis for not paying the women holds true to the men. Name me ONE wrestler in TNA or a group of guys that have been such a big draw that when they weren't on screen the ratings dip to a noticeable degree? You can't do it because that person doesn't exist. So if you go off of that way of thinking EVERYONE in TNA is expendable and there is no reason to not have Jesse Neal vs. Shark Boy main eventing with Rosie Lottalove or whatever her name was on color commentary.

 

Also name me another entertainment field that pays their lowest guys THAT low? You're right Hogan and Flair have million dollar deals with TNA nobody in the UFL is getting a million dollars which is how it should be. My point is though a PUNTER in the UFL can make 100,000 in the UFL if he goes to the championship game and wins with bonus and merch sales. That Punter works roughly 12 games if he goes to the championship. Thats nearly 10,000 a week.

 

Jay Lethal wrestled Ric Flair for two months straight headlining iMpact's and being one of if not the headline for several pay per views. I promise you Jay did not make a 100 G's this year off of TNA and he didn't come close to making ten thousand for any weeks worth of work.

 

If I'm owned by a billion dollar energy company and I have a sweetheart television deal as well as run a months worth of television at little to no cost as far as arena bookings, advertising etc goes AND I'm getting money from my employees everytime they work their local indy show? All that and I can't even 2,000 a month to my mid card even if their on television 52 weeks out of the year?

 

Name me one entertainment field that pays 19 K? Oh by the way being an extra on a television show pays anywhere from 100-700 per part. Even if you do one extra spot per week at a hundred bucks you're making 400 a month and over 20,000 dollars in a year. Thats if you DON'T speak, if you have a speaking part then you are not consindered an extra and you will have your pay doubled or tripled. So if you have a speaking part in a television show you're making well more than 20,000 a year. If you are in the background of a t.v show doing nothing and you do that once a week for an entire year you make more than guys do in TNA. NBA D Leaguers make 24,000 a MINIMUM so even THEY make more.

 

So far I have learned that Punters in the UFL a league who's championship game was seen by 100,000 viewers or 1/16 of TNA's average audience. I have learned that wearing a costume in the background of a television show without uttering one line have a higher yearly minimum, NBA D Leaguer's make more in a minmum salary (with no real television deal in place), the WNBA minmum salary is nearly triple TNA's with an average attendance of 250,000 viewers (1/5 of TNA's average viewers), MLS league minimum is 33,000 (I won't even go into how little viewership and attention soccer gets in the U.S)

 

So anyway I challenge someone to come up with any sports or entertainment field who has a chance to be on television atleast 52 times a year or in that area that has a LOWER min salary than TNA.

[PeterHilton]

Name me one entertainment field that pays 19 K? Oh by the way being an extra on a television show pays anywhere from 100-700 per part. Even if you do one extra spot per week at a hundred bucks you're making 400 a month and over 20,000 dollars in a year. Thats if you DON'T speak, if you have a speaking part then you are not consindered an extra and you will have your pay doubled or tripled. So if you have a speaking part in a television show you're making well more than 20,000 a year. If you are in the background of a t.v show doing nothing and you do that once a week for an entire year you make more than guys do in TNA. NBA D Leaguers make 24,000 a MINIMUM so even THEY make more.

 

So far I have learned that Punters in the UFL a league who's championship game was seen by 100,000 viewers or 1/16 of TNA's average audience. I have learned that wearing a costume in the background of a television show without uttering one line have a higher yearly minimum, NBA D Leaguer's make more in a minmum salary (with no real television deal in place), the WNBA minmum salary is nearly triple TNA's with an average attendance of 250,000 viewers (1/5 of TNA's average viewers), MLS league minimum is 33,000 (I won't even go into how little viewership and attention soccer gets in the U.S)

 

So anyway I challenge someone to come up with any sports or entertainment field who has a chance to be on television atleast 52 times a year or in that area that has a LOWER min salary than TNA.

 

 

Well when you put it that way...

 

EDIT: i know this discussion is going to seem like it's unfair or its overkill towards TNA, but when you tell that - for instance - the guys in GenMe could probably make more money by quitting TNA and landing regular gigs standing around in the background of bar scenes on 'How I Met Your Mother' it does have some lulz

[Stennick]

Its not over kill in my opinion although I have made my point and I'll rest with it. There isn't a single significant entertainment entity or sports league that has LESS pay for its employees than TNA.

 

I still can't quite fathom how TNA doesn't make money. They have all of these over seas television deals set up in the UK, Australia, even India and the Middle East. Those deals are essentially ALL profit since their taking a product thats already being aired and just REairing it. That combined with their television shows costing almost nothing compared to any other arena booking they would do. On top of that Spike has given them an incredible television deal as well as paying for guys such as Sting and Angle in the past (atleast partly).

 

So when you look at just how easy TNA has it and just how many different people give them breaks Spike, Disney, over seas television companies, etc. its pretty hard to understand how they aren't constantly profitable.

 

I wanted people to see just how little TNA people are paid compared to any sports or entertainment counterpart (sometimes a significantly less counterpart) in the United States.

 

So you take in that they are unwilling to pay their stars what other avenues pay theirs and you might say "well their losing money they can't afford it". Thats fine except for one they have proven on more than one occasion (the Immortal Title) that they are willing to drop 18K (an entire years salary for an employee of theres) when it benefits them. That combined with them demanding a cut even if it is ten percent when WWE stars work indy events such as when Lawler works outside of the show or when Al Snow did back in the day they don't demand a cut from these guys for these things so why does TNA charge a cut for their stars to work some PWG show that a few hundred people are attending anyway. Oh and on top of that they will not pay for any injuries sustained under THEIR banner. They will give you a LOAN with interest to be paid back out of your paycheck.

 

I get sick of TNA playing the little engine that could card. The big bad WWE and their just the little guy trying to rise up and give something different. Even though they don't offer anything different as far as product goes and when they do offer something different (X Division, KO's, etc, tag teams) they kill it rather quickly.

 

There is still a lot wrong with how the WWE does business but in the last few years they have come leaps and bounds. They pay for any injuries sustained at no cost to the worker, they don't take money out of their pocket if their workers are given the green light to work some lame indy show and they pay even their developmental guys enough to live off of.

 

So TNA can't do those things but they can drop a million in cash on Hogan? Another million of Flair? 18K for a title belt, they can pay for 12 ppv's a year that they LOSE money on and mostly go unwatched?

 

It urks me that people came in here and tried to justify how much money TNA is paying guys that have more television time than any extra on a television show and are more seen and recognized around the country than any minor league sports star and yet out of all the sports and entertainment fields THEIR employees are the lowest paid even though 1.5 million people watch them every week.

[PeterHilton]

 

I still can't quite fathom how TNA doesn't make money.

 

I totally support the rest of the post but this interested me. It's all speculation because no one will ever see their financials, but it seems to me that the biggest possibility is that their pay-outs to the Hogan/Flair/Hardy/RVDs of the world is much MUCH larger than we might believe OR that Panda energy never came in and rescued them so much as they floated them enough money to get them to this point and now TNA is paying that back.

[liontamer]

following this arguement on/off throught the last few weeks with interest. Wondering if there are any ACTUAL salaries and company finances posted anywhere. Otherwise this is all hypothetical heresay (sp?) and lacks much substance to me.

[Wrestling Century]

following this arguement on/off throught the last few weeks with interest. Wondering if there are any ACTUAL salaries and company finances posted anywhere. Otherwise this is all hypothetical heresay (sp?) and lacks much substance to me.

 

I agree with this post. I'm not getting involved in this argument until I can actually see the actual finances.

[PeterHilton]

following this arguement on/off throught the last few weeks with interest. Wondering if there are any ACTUAL salaries and company finances posted anywhere. Otherwise this is all hypothetical heresay (sp?) and lacks much substance to me.

 

well if you read along then you know that most everyone has cited well known examples (such as Kong stating she made $400 an appearance) and figures given in wrestling site like the Observer or 411mania.com

 

No one is going to have ACTUAL salaries since TNA has no obligation to give out that info. All you can really do is go off of estimates.

[Stennick]

following this arguement on/off throught the last few weeks with interest. Wondering if there are any ACTUAL salaries and company finances posted anywhere. Otherwise this is all hypothetical heresay (sp?) and lacks much substance to me.

 

You're a disgrace to the entire internet GTFO If you can't wildly speculate and speak on secret cult meetings and human/goat sacrafices that may or may not be happening then what good are you ?

 

I don't have actual salaries but something that struck me as funny is that Taylor Wilde had to work at Sunglasses Hut WHILE she was TNA Knockouts Champion. For a nationally broadcast, and at one time claimed rival of the World Wrestling Entertainment to have your largest female star hocking sunglasses is quite sad.

 

Obviously TNA has not released anything of their own right. They're a privatley owned company and outside of about a dozen or so guys we don't know what they make.

 

Flair, Hogan and Sting all had million dollar deals. Atleast Sting's was (at one time) partly set off by Spike. I could find the links but honestly I think atleast this is common knowledge.

 

I know that Gen Me have had their salaries reported, Eric Young I think just had his put out there, Kevin Nash has mentioned his.

 

All in all the only time we get any real pay information is when its incredibly large (Sting, Hogan, Flair) or damn near nothing (Wilde, Tara, Kong at one time, Gen Me, etc.)

 

But to be fair you don't have WWE's finance numbers either. Anyone's salary on any company is supposed to be a mostly confidential thing the only place I see it wildly talked about is sports.

 

Pro Wrestling in general as with most entertainment industries are based on second and third hand information. The Wrestling Observer is by far the most credible source for legitmate pro wrestling news. Dave is usually pretty dead on as he's been right way more times than wrong when it comes to the business. So I would say that if he's reporting it (and he has) then its credible. It would require people to go to his website and find it but he's pretty much said the same thign we're saying here.

 

Some people will say "well thats the dirt sheets" if thats the case then we can't take ANYTHING we know for granted. Is Vince really the "richard" backstage that we think? Did HHH really hold everyone down? Is the WWE really all about pushing mindless big bodied goofs whenever they get the chance? Was CM Punk in the doghouse with Taker?

 

Everything we discuss we mostly get from one dirt sheet or another so you have to make a decision to believe what they say (gain the Observer is right 8/10 times) or you can decide to disregard them which means that you can't really speak on any "news" since its all stemmed from the same place. If you start picking and choosing what you believe thats pretty silly since its all coming from the same source and we have as much insight into one part of it as any.

 

The only other source is TNA itself and both Dixie and Eric have been known to skew the truth just as often if not more so than Dave so I would say that the Wrestling Observer is just as factual as Dixie and Eric if not more so.

 

So the answer is yes there are numbers out there some come straight from the wrestlers mouths others come from Dave's site but I don't pay a monthly fee to hear about wrestling news so I don't have access to where that could all be searched.

[Hyde Hill]

TNA DOES MAKE MONEY!!! Get that bs Meltzer notion out of your head asap.

[Bigpapa42]

TNA DOES MAKE MONEY!!! Get that bs Meltzer notion out of your head asap.

 

Honestly, if they are making money, that just makes some of these financial decisions worse. At least if you are not profitable, paying workers a pittance is somewhat justifiable. When you doing decently, its not. Same with taking a significant cut of them working for other promotions.

[liontamer]

well if you read along then you know that most everyone has cited well known examples (such as Kong stating she made $400 an appearance) and figures given in wrestling site like the Observer or 411mania.com

 

No one is going to have ACTUAL salaries since TNA has no obligation to give out that info. All you can really do is go off of estimates.

 

That's actually the only one I've seen in the parts I've read thus far. My thoughts on that though are 1)when did she say that? (with the company vs after an angry depature where she could be potentially trying to make the company look bad), 2)if I'm not mistaken she is from Japan, despite not looking that part to me, - does TNA pay her travel or other fees? 3)what does she get and how frequently working indy shows?, 4)she held the title quite a bit, is there a bonus for the champ? - have heard that for other companies on TV series like real life I'm a pro wrestler (and some of those wrestlers from indy feds reported making more than some of the figures you guys have here, which makes me wonder). 5) what are kong's/the knockouts merch sales compared to the others? 6)If it's that bad, why take the job?

 

And also, not everyone is taking this stance, but to counter the 'TNA is biting at both ends' arguement, a lot of people seem to be saying 'TNA never made a profit once, I think they need to pay their talent more' this makes no sense to me (I can't see how they could have never been profitable, and if that is accurate, I would expect pay cuts not high salaries).

 

And the UFL comparison was interesting but not entirely fair because the UFL hasn't shown staying power yet (my understanding is they are already looking for the NFL to take them over) so they could go the way of the XFL in which case they likely overpaid the talent. They also have a lot more and wealthier investors (including Pelosi's husband to my understanding), I would also assume that football in general draws much more in merchandise than wrestling (they may invest more now because of what it will mean later), not to mention that it's judged more on a team basis than an individual one, not to say that it doesn't have it's stars. And while this board usually does, I don't think most of the rest of the world views wrestling on a company basis, but rather on it's main eventers. I think most people tune in to watch two or three particular people or a particular stable so that explains the steep payscale to an extent.

 

 

 

Off topic, if I was the UFL, I know they made a run at Vick after he came out of prison, and I doubt he'd take it at this point, but after his success this year, I'd go balls out to get this guy, hell drop a half a billion if you can find it. Landing him alone will significantly affect viewership and exposure.

[Hyde Hill]

Ok point by point

 

Yeah being a full time extra pays so well that is why there are no actors etc waiting tables in LA. No job security and many many extra's definitely get paid less or even nothing. Plus their exposure is minimal at best. Also compare their income to the stars of the show and the total income of the show and also take into account the other costs which can be spread more due to being a big studio.

 

Like tamer said. Wrestling doesn't pay that will either at both ends even. That is why the Rock is doing movies and is not in wrestling.

 

Developmental WWE guys get paid more then TNA undercard. Hmm lets say WWE makes what 6 times as much money as TNA whow what a surprise.

 

What is the total income of those UFL teams? How much of said income goes to player TOTAL (so not base income) wages? How long is a football career? How many days do they work for their team? What is the pay scale top to bottom?

 

Are any of those teams trying to make it to the NFL, none? Not as with true Football where you can promote to the higher league for more income. Now that teams wants to go to promote to the higher level? Gotta get yourself some proven good players? Want them? Gotta pay them bigger money? Still need to balance the budge? Gotta pay the others less.

 

Got a youth player you hope will be good? Not going to pay him that maximum salary immediately. Kong for instance was a relatively unknown and for that matter the potential in a serious women's division was an unknown when they first signed her.

 

BTW know some of the budgets of those second league clubs in the Netherlands? (population 16 mil) 5-10 million Euro's. Now how much attendance they get and tv viewers? Average attendance 2.000 tv rating? Not a whole lot. Know what their substitutes get paid and youth players? Not much I can tell you that. And they only need teams of 18 people.

 

Now look at golf for instance. Many Challenger tour players (the second level in Europe) actually lose money to play on that tour in the hopes of getting to the top level. Many at the top level also barely break even.

 

Now look at the history of wrestling as it comes to worker pay and the general pay in all of wrestling. Also look at the fact that there are no unions, governing bodies, salary caps etc etc in wrestling.

 

A local actor in a local theatre makes 100 bucks a night for an audience of 100 people. Local wrestler, same audience 20 bucks if lucky. This is normal.

 

BTW TNA does pay for travel, its one of the reasons Hamada was cut and is the reason ref Charles was cut. It probably depends on the contract.

 

Now TNA has essentially four payment types. Option A make 300 bucks a night and make your own indy bookings or get an agent aka ppa. B make 450 a night and TNA acts as your agent semi exclusive ppa. C 600 bucks a night, no indy bookings aka exclusive ppa. D Guaranteed exclusive contract 3.5 K a month aka written contract. Now this is not taking all the potential extra income into account which has the potential to be a lot larger in wrestling then in other sports/entertainment.

 

Ex employees bitching about their employer and gossip magazines making up stuff? Now that is unheard off!!!!

 

I can go on and on and on. Is TNA treating its workers more unfair then other companies? Nope. Is there a systemic problem in wrestling? Yep. Is TNA in a position to change that? Definitely not. If they ever get to the income level and size of the E then yeah definitely. Is the E more at fault? Yep. Are indies even worse to work for? Hell yeah.

[Stennick]

The UFL is finishing its second year and already have an expansion in both games and teams for a third season. I have not read that they want the NFL to take them over but I know they want a stronger partnership with the NFL which to me would be the exact same thing as TNA Entertainment LLC having a strong agreement with Panda Energy Inc.

 

So three years isn't the staying power of the eight years TNA has but its getting there.

[Hyde Hill]

Honestly, if they are making money, that just makes some of these financial decisions worse. At least if you are not profitable, paying workers a pittance is somewhat justifiable. When you doing decently, its not. Same with taking a significant cut of them working for other promotions.

 

They weren't making money when they signed Kong and they had no idea the KO's would be any type of draw at that time. Which still has to be proven they are. I think they are from a total product standpoint. But paying them the same as midcard/ uppermidcard male talent? Nope. Just above the enhancement guys (Sharky, Neal etc) yep.

[Hyde Hill]

The UFL is finishing its second year and already have an expansion in both games and teams for a third season. I have not read that they want the NFL to take them over but I know they want a stronger partnership with the NFL which to me would be the exact same thing as TNA Entertainment LLC having a strong agreement with Panda Energy Inc.

 

So three years isn't the staying power of the eight years TNA has but its getting there.

 

Don't forget Panda has made it quite clear they want TNA to stand on its own feet financially now and TNA is paying back the loan they got from Panda. Panda provides security and expertise but no cash.

[Stennick]

Ok point by point

 

Yeah being a full time extra pays so well that is why there are no actors etc waiting tables in LA. No job security and many many extra's definitely get paid less or even nothing. Plus their exposure is minimal at best. Also compare their income to the stars of the show and the total income of the show and also take into account the other costs which can be spread more due to being a big studio.

 

Being an extra DOES pay well. I just stated that they make anywhere from 100-700 a DAY for a NON speaking role. If they speak or are an active part of the story they make MORE than that. So yes being an extra does pay something. There is no such thing in the States as being an extra and NOT getting paid. Again they get between 100-700 per day depending. Why are there people waiting tables in LA? Same reason guys are in the indy's there isn't THAT much work to go around. It doesn't take away from extras being paid more than TNA workers who are on TELEVISION most of the time in speaking active roles. Consider that if a lower mid carder is on television for ten minutes of a two hour show thats a higher ratio of face time when they ARE the star of the story than any extra. So yes being an extra pays better and it doesn't matter what their pay is compared to the tweny million dollar men the fact is they are not noticed on television, they don't speak and they're not part of the story yet they get paid better than guys who are on cable television weekly being noticed by at the very least 1.5 million people here and a few million over seas. Lower mid carders are stars of the story for atleast ten minutes a week and sometimes more.

 

 

Like tamer said. Wrestling doesn't pay that will either at both ends even. That is why the Rock is doing movies and is not in wrestling.

 

If the the number is 19K then that means they are getting paid 360 dollars a week with a forty hour work week that averages out to someone getting paid nine dollars an hour. They could make that much money working at McDonalds for forty hours a week. Hell my brother can make 200 bucks wrestling in front of a 100 people three nights a week. So how can some guy working the indies for three nights a week make nearly as much as a guy on LIVE television. This isn't about pro wrestling not paying well its about TNA with their national exposure, with their sweetheart television deal, with their international deals, with their ability to spend 18,000 on a BELT paying guys the same amount of money as a MCDONALDS worker. Seriously on what planet is 360 bucks to be a television star a "fair" wage? On what planet is putting your body on the line every week for 360 bucks a FAIR wage? This isn't a "wrestling doesn't pay well". Some wrestlers get paid quite well. Hulk Hogan is 60 years old and just made a million dollars this year for LESS work than these guys. Same goes for Sting he's been on television less than Hogan and he's made as much money as these guys. Sting can work 30 weeks out of the year, make no difference in the ratings and STILL get paid 52 times more than these guys. So I would say that a huge pay disparity when these guys are NOT extras. In a lot of cases Hulk Hogan is on television or even Mick Foley or whoever else is on television just as long if not less than these guys. I understand their not names I'm not asking them to have Hulk Hogan level money but you can't play the "we're broke" when you're paying 18 grand for a belt, when you're paying THREE million dollars for three guys that don't even wrestle.

Developmental WWE guys get paid more then TNA undercard. Hmm lets say WWE makes what 6 times as much money as TNA whow what a surprise.

 

What is the total income of those UFL teams? How much of said income goes to player TOTAL (so not base income) wages? How long is a football career? How many days do they work for their team? What is the pay scale top to bottom?

 

What does it matter how long a football career is? I'd say a punter in the UFL (as long as the UFL was around) could be a punter a lot longer than Generation Me will be a relevant tag team for TNA. There are Punters that have been in the NFL for twenty years so its not like they need to make more money because they're not going to be around as long. Again they are PUNTERS and their base salary is more for a sport that has 100,000 people watching its championship game on two television networks nobody sees. The UFL is also not delusional in competing with the NFL. We don't have UFL Monday Night Football like we had with iMpact. This has nothing to do with how much the top guys are getitng paid or even what the ratio is. It has to do with the lower mid card guys NOT making a liveable wage. Seriously again NINE dollars an hour is what they average out to. How is it that they can be on television for a multi million dollar company and make as much as my little sister does at McDonalds? They don't have the money? But they have it for Hogan, Flair, Sting, Foley, Nash (did have in his case), Angle, Ken Anderson, Jeff Hardy, RVD, and the list goes on. When TNA wants to have the money for something they do. But when Kong or Taylor Wilde ask for a pay increase their laughed at or shown the door.

 

Are any of those teams trying to make it to the NFL, none? Not as with true Football where you can promote to the higher league for more income. Now that teams wants to go to promote to the higher level? Gotta get yourself some proven good players? Want them? Gotta pay them bigger money? Still need to balance the budge? Gotta pay the others less.

 

That doesn't make sense though. When was the last time Sting was worth a million dollars? What has Mick Foley done to earn what I'm sure isn't a small amount of money? Why pay Ric Flair a million dollars to bleed on television every week? You already brought in Hulk Hogan to hep with the international market why do you need Flair as well? What about Kevin Nash when was the last time this guy was worth his money? Yet they continued to resign these guys. In sports if you don't do well when you're brought in your contract isn't renewed. If the Rams are 6-10 team without Dan Marino and they bring in the biggest named QB of the eighties to help improve their team both finances and on the field and they are still 6-20 five years later with Dan they don't CONTINUE to re up his contract for a million in cash every week. So you're whole "if you want good players you gotta pay the others less" theory doesn't work. TNA has pissed away money at these guys over and over again resigned them time and time again even though they haven't effected the bottom line or viewership at all. One might argue keeping the lower paid guys around would be more worthwhile. Pay Joe 100,000 a year to main event. Thats a TENTH of some of the other guys. It was just reported the WWE had NO interest in the guy. Eric Young was an upper mid carder.....same thing he left and tried to sign with Vince but they didn't want him. News flash they don't care about TNA stars and most likely would take a dozen guys if not less out of the whole lot. You don't have to pay these guys big money to keep them to stay most of them wouldn't have anywhere else to go.

 

BTW know some of the budgets of those second league clubs in the Netherlands? (population 16 mil) 5-10 million Euro's. Now how much attendance they get and tv viewers? Average attendance 2.000 tv rating? Not a whole lot. Know what their substitutes get paid and youth players? Not much I can tell you that. And they only need teams of 18 people.

 

Now look at golf for instance. Many Challenger tour players (the second level in Europe) actually lose money to play on that tour in the hopes of getting to the top level. Many at the top level also barely break even.

 

No offense but that doesn't work because you just said so yourself. The top league in that sport doesn't even pay these guys a living wage. If TNA were in Europe I might say "well the Challenger tour doesn't pay their players so I don't fault TNA" but when the United States SOCCER league can pay their players a MINIMUM of 33,000 a year its sad TNA can't do the same. Do you know how low pro soccer is on on the United States interest scale? If there were a paint drying league where you watched paint dry it would garner more interest than Soccer does over here. TNA has more money, more assetts, more viewers and higher telvision ratings and exposure than Soccer, the WNBA, The NBA D League, the UFL, Triple A baseball and yet these guys all get paid less than these. The whole "well here in Europe guys make this amount of money and barely break even" that doesn't have anything to do with what TNA a United States company is paying compared to other United States athletic and entertainment companies of a comparable size are paying there guys.

 

Now look at the history of wrestling as it comes to worker pay and the general pay in all of wrestling. Also look at the fact that there are no unions, governing bodies, salary caps etc etc in wrestling.

 

Go read Mick Foley's book he was getting paid 200 bucks to job for a night in the WWE in the 80's. Foley as a WWE jobber in the eighties was getting paid more than what a mid carder in TNA is making today. That was 25-30 years ago and it was more THEN than what TNA guys are making now. Name me a single instance of a company have an INTERNATIONAL television deal that paid their guys less than what TNA guys were making. What did the AWA midcard get? I bet you they got more THEN than TNA guys are making now. What about Mid South guys? Yup still more. What did ECW guys make? ECW guys were making more you don't think Spike Dudley in ECW was making more money than some of these TNA guys? Wrestlers not being paid well is actually kind of a myth in a lot of ways. They don't get rich but they certainly make a better average than nine dollars an hour based on a forty hour work week. So again I'm asking you to show me a single internationally televised wrestling company that pays their workers less than what TNA pays their undercard.

 

Now TNA has essentially four payment types. Option A make 300 bucks a night and make your own indy bookings or get an agent aka ppa. B make 450 a night and TNA acts as your agent semi exclusive ppa. C 600 bucks a night, no indy bookings aka exclusive ppa. D Guaranteed exclusive contract 3.5 K a month aka written contract. Now this is not taking all the potential extra income into account which has the potential to be a lot larger in wrestling then in other sports/entertainment.

 

This I don't buy, I don't buy these guys are making 182,000 a year. In fact the reason Eric Young was released is he wanted more pay. When they rehired him they did so under the condition that he coudl be in charge of his own bookings. This was the only way they would give him more pay. THEY don't decide which form of a contract they have TNA does. Otherwise why would it have been TNA that let him have his own bookings he would have just taken that option but he didn't TNA had to GIVE him this option. You are delusional if you believe TNA is paying their guys 180,000 a year. I would love to see a link for that.

 

Ex employees bitching about their employer and gossip magazines making up stuff? Now that is unheard off!!!!

 

Taylor Wilde had to quite The Sunglasses Hut for Minimum wage WHILE she was the Knockouts champion so thats NOT an ex employee bitching its their current women's champion. Tara complained about her pay while she was employed, Eric Young quit because of a pay dispute, Kevin Nash is not with them due to a pay dispute so these people mention this stuff WHILE employed and then go into detail once they aren't employed. Its not like these guys get fired and then make it up. They comment on it during their employment and only give the finer details after being released due to legalities and such.

 

I can go on and on and on. Is TNA treating its workers more unfair then other companies? Nope. Is there a systemic problem in wrestling? Yep. Is TNA in a position to change that? Definitely not. If they ever get to the income level and size of the E then yeah definitely. Is the E more at fault? Yep. Are indies even worse to work for? Hell yeah.

 

You act like TNA is just another wrestling company. It is the second largest wrestling promotion in the United States. If all you can say is "their not any worse than the other indy promotions" thats not the point. These guys are INTERNATIONALLY broadcast they have a roster of Hogan, RVD, Hardy, Foley, Jarrett, Ken Anderson, Sting, recently Kevin Nash, Flair and the list goes on of some of the largest wrestling stars the world has ever known. Their television tapings are severely discounted for arena booking, the television company helps PAY some of these guys salaries. They are heads and shoulders above everyone but the WWE but yet they treat their wrestlers NO better than an indy promotion for some weekend warriors would.

 

Actually how is the E more at fault? I've not heard too many people complaining about the E's payment levels. In fact don't a lot of guys stay with the company BECAUSE of the pay? They pay for any injuries sustained, they pay them more than any other pro wrestling company in the world, etc. I don't see how you could say the WWE treats their guys more unfairly than TNA when TNA won't pay for injuries sustained on THEIR shows and when they give the workers money its a LOAN with INTEREST.

 

I don't mean to argue with you Hyde but I think you're WAY off the mark here. I know you feel like TNA gets a bad rep business wise but tell me what excuse they have to pay these guys so low? Tell me what excuse they have to not pay for injuries sustained in THEIR ring. If Generation Me broke their necks doing these high flying matches people love on television who would pay for that? THEY would. Do you have ANY idea how much it would cost in medical bills to repair a broken neck? Do you have any idea how much time that would cost to pay off working on a few hundred bucks a week? Even you can't be this delusional and blind to the situation at hand.

[liontamer]

Math question here....

 

keep seeing the 19 K number as an annual number here for lower card, wondering where it's coming from.

 

If kong only got 400/appearance for impact tapings alone thats 20,800/yr. But that's not her total. TNA has house shows and if you are going to argue that these people work 40 hr weeks for TNA (probably true of some talents, but not others) and therefore deserve more, you had better include these in your figures, especially considering that they only work a few hours a show and generally only a few minutes out of those hours (yes I appreciated that the travel can be an obstacle to holding an outside job, and that at some point - whether it's through TNA or on their own- they have to train, but I'm not sure that takes 40 hrs a week and traveling the world is a pretty sweet perk and the general fitness part of it is something they should be doing for their health anyway).

 

Looking at the site, I see entire weeks with touring events. The touring schedule on their site looks pretty busy but is in spurts, so lets say kong averaged 3 house shows a week. If that's at the 400/show still then she just quadrupled her salary an is now over 80K, not bad not to mention indy bookings, not bad for someone nearly nobody heard of before she appeared on TNA. If they pay her less non-televised, we'll say 200/show (assuming that none of these are on reaction and thus still 400), thats still over 50K, again not including indy bookings and not a bad number. Close to what I make working a full and part time job after 7 yrs of college (in which I lost money due to tuition and unpaid internships while many of them probably did not go to college, or had significantly less college and graduate education, and started gaining earlier) and I had 60 K in loans to pay back with and work far more hours hours and they get world travel and celeb status (which may lead to higher paying acting roles or paid non wrestling appearances) as a perk. I would also imagine some get more for PPVs as well. And some probably get a share of merch as well. Depending on the injury that may help pay for the reported lack of health insurance-speaking of which for those that stay healthy, they save health insurance premiums. (and what about the trainers we see on reaction. Are they not TNA provided healthcare?)

 

Also, I stopped following a lot of the online reports because the sites I got them from are what trashed my computers and I'm not going through that again. But when I did follow the KO's were consistantly beating a lot of the guys segments on spike and probably should get rasies if that is still holding true. But remember too that TNA is international. Are they drawing internationally, or mostly in one or two markets? People like Hogan are still hugely over elsewhere and may even draw more abroad than here. Do people in India care about Taylor Wilde or like the BP? Are they even allowed to watch it in all countries, or do they get censored/edited out to avoid offending some of the cultures they market in that have markedly different values than us? do people buy Wilde or kong shirts or action figures?

[Stennick]

source: http://www.pwtorch.com

 

Though they may be big stars on television and draw relatively high ratings, that doesn't necessarily translate into big checks for the stars of TNA's Knockouts division.

 

In light of Awesome Kong's contractual dispute with TNA Wrestling, multiple sources have noted that the average pay for a female performer in the organization is between $200 to $400 per appearance. However, it's widely assumed that Christy Hemme and Lisa Marie Varon (a/k/a Tara) make more money due to their past ties with World Wrestling Entertainment with sources believing that Kong makes slightly more than $400 per shot, which is considered a "high end salary" in the No. 2 wrestling organization in the World.

 

It's interesting to note that a female performer who made the "high end salary" of $400, exclusively appeared on television, and appeared on every single television event held over the course of a calender year would only garner $26,000 at most. Although, that number comes in before one figures in road expenses, wardrobe expenses and taxes. Regarding travel, TNA solely covers airfare, leaving talent to cover the rest including lodging. Also note, there is no downside guarantee, thus meaning talent only get paid when they are used.

With that being said, TNA holds live events most weeks and permits talent to seek independent bookings, thus allowing them to garner more money. Furthermore, television exposure greatly increases a wrestler's booking fee, most especially for talent previously not seen on national television.

 

Regarding Kong, she has asked for a raise on several occasions but company officials have apparently not honored her request despite her lofty standing on television. Kong reportedly blew up last spring when she found out that then newcomer Brutus Magnus was being paid more than her.

 

It was reported recently that Kong has regularly vented backstage about the company spending frivolously on newcomers. Since then, multiple sources have confirmed that she was very upset with Ric Flair's wife being treated to limousine service on the company's dime at a recent show. TNA never grants limo service to its female performers.

 

It is believed that Kong has several years remaining on her contract with TNA. She refused to appear on the company's recent UK tour

and at time it was widely assumed that she was upset with Bubba the Love Sponge's controversial remarks concerning the country of Haiti. However, multiple sources say the issue has since been resolved and that her ongoing problems with the organization are related to pay.

 

The primary reason Gail Kim left TNA for World Wrestling Entertainment was due to the significant discrepancy between the amount of money being offered by both companies. According to multiple sources, Kim did not want to leave TNA, but felt she had no choice but to bolt for WWE due to the massive difference in pay.

 

So yes they do get to do house shows but they have to pay for their own rental car they have to pay for their own hotel, their own food, etc. So if you make 200 bucks a show and you spend 80 of that on a room and another 10 on food for the day and you have to drop another few hundred on the house show run on a car you're coming out with less than HALF of that going in your pocket.

 

Of course Hyde refuses to give any acceptance to the "dirt sheets' when it comes to TNA. To his credit I don't see him quoting them against the WWE either. That being said is you can't have your cake and eat it to. YOU can't say "Vince is evil and Trips held everyone down and Vince likes big men" you can't say all that and then turn around and say they are wrong about TNA. The PWtorch is right more than their wrong and since Kong, Taylor Wilde, Gail Kim and SO many others have come out and said this exact same thing I think its pretty fair to lend fact to it.

 

I wasn't saying they work forty hours a week I was saying the amount they make is EQUAL to someone making nine bucks an hour at McDonalds for forty hours a week.

 

I think I have more than proven my numbers and examples are at the very least credible and logical. I think I've supplied more numbers in favor of my side than anyone has come up with for the otherside of it. There isn't a single National or INternational entertainment company or sports franchise in the United States that pays less than what TNA does and the closet I have seen is a good ten grand ahead in base pay alone. For a SOCCER league in the United States with little to no television and even less exposure than what TNA has.