WWE Third Brand Thoughts

[Bigpapa42]

Figured this might stimulate a bit of discussion, so...

 

With my TCW game going too well, I decided to mess around with another real world game for a bit. It really started with me messing around with the original data on EWR and taking to the idea of starting up in 2003 in the WWE. A "what if Rock and Lesnar stuck around" type game. While the simplicity of EWR is appealing, I ended up deciding to move right back to TEW, using the September 2003 real world mod by FutureLegend.

 

That's the background. Now one of the things I wanted to do with the game was add the third brand earlier than the WWE actually did. I know its a lot to book, but I actually find games with too much preferrable (weird). I quite like the idea of each of the brands offering fans something different. Raw would be the more traditional Sports Entertainment brand, with the goofier storylines and such. SD would remain a bit more serious and built around athleticism, with storylines that are a bit more basic than Raw. As for the third brand, my initial instinct was to simply create ECW and have it a bit like they do now - a way to introduce new younger talent (and of course, bringing in all the indy stars like CM Punk, Bryan Danielson, Samoa Joe, Low Ki, etc). But the third brand would have a bit more of an edge than it does now, to actually live up to the ECW name.

 

The basic idea of the new ECW brand was to build it around Raven initially. Stealing freely from Nevermore's ECW, Raven would be the centerpiece and first ECW brand champion. He would be joined by some of the former ECW talent - Heyman (obviousy), the Dudley's, Rob van Damn, maybe even Sabu and Sandman. They would be countered by a signifciant amount of young talent - CM Punk, Bryan Danielson, the Briscoes, and likely AJ Styles. Maybe an established WWE babyface - someone like Jericho or even Eddie Guerrero - to feud with Raven while the younger guys are built up a bit.

 

However, another name came up that made me reconsider things a bit - Sting. I know its not particularly realistic, as not working for McMahon actually seems to be a point of pride for him. But even at 44, he's talented in the mod and I think he would be fun to book in the WWE (which is really all it comes down to). I thought about having him on the new ECW brand, as a main rival to Raven and liked the idea. I considered having him on Raw, possibly teaming with Shawn Michaels and possibly the Rock to oppose Evolution - also like the idea. Then I thought about doing a WCW brand instead of the ECW... and also like the idea.

 

And that's basically the whole point of this... What about the idea of a WCW-based brand for the WWE starting in late 2003?

 

With Flair, Sting, Booker T, Goldberg, Nash, Jericho, Big Show, Benoit, Guerrero, Steiner, Raven, Mysterio, Chavo, and others, there is more than enough names who were prevelent on WCW to make it work in that regard. Not that all of them would immediately move to the brand, but there are more options there than for an ECW-based brand. The idea of having a cruiserweight division on the third brand works just as well.

 

Another option would be to do the third brand as ECW and turn one of the other two into a WCW, but I prefer to leave Raw and SD alone.

 

So, I'm just looking for people's thoughts on which they would have preferred seeing back in the day as the third WWE brand - WCW or ECW?

 

*** Note - this is just for a private game. No diary or anything. I'm just curious what fans think about the idea, basically.

[Guest cmdrsam]

Honestly I think the WCW idea would hold my attention. Sting against Raven isnt a bad idea but dont see Sting as a ECW guy. Course I didnt think Angle would do ECW either but we know how that turned out.

[PeterHilton]

Because of the way the brand actually came into being...

 

...the way the fans kept chanting the E-C-Dub long after it was dead, the popularity of the Rise + Fall DVD, the shockingly high sales figures despite a lack of a real promotional push by the WWE, the buy rates for ONS, the incredible reviews it got, the general excitement for the ECW show when it was first announced....

 

...because of all that I think it would feel more authentic to keep ECW as the third brand.

 

I mean..the E spent years trashing the WCW name by 03 ..where's the logic in bringing them back after spending all that time devaluing the name? Not to mention the damage that WCW did to its' own name in the waning years.

 

I agree that Sting would be fun to book, so put him on Raw. He deserves a place on the flagship show.

[randomfreeze]

Genadi did a really good dynasty with similiar themes to what I think you're describing. His started March 2002 and instead of it being a third brand, the second brand was actually just named WCW. But yeah, somewhat comparable, at least enough to remind me of it.

 

 

http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45876

 

 

I wouldn't be able to give a suggestion on WCW or ECW...I was too much of a WCW fan to say I'd prefer ECW anything. Hilton is right though, WCW's name had been dragged through the mud endlessly at this point. I would have been supportive of bringing WCW back as a brand, but ECW fans always seem to be louder than the rest of us. I know you said you wanted to keep Smackdown...but the real world game I've always wanted to do was 3 brands...one WWE, one WCW, and one ECW. I think that would be fun in the time period you're at.

 

You can certainly do WCW if you brought the talent you mentioned over. They would be strong enough to run the shows. So if you want to, I'd say do it, you definitely have the resources available.

[Bigpapa42]

I had completely forgotten about that project, randomfreeze. Thanks for reminding me. And its funny that you bring it up, as I'm currently taking a long look over the 2002 mod Genadi used and considering using that instead. Creating a Nitro brand instead of SD is an interesting thought...

 

But if I do go with the 2003 data, I have agree with the thoughts that ECW as the third brand might be a better idea than WCW. Hmmm...

[Self]

You could have it as "WWE Proving Ground" a place where folks from all over the world come to get onto the 'real' shows, RAW & Smackdown. Not only rookies, but wrestlers from the defeated promotions. WCW and ECW. Raven could start calling himself 'The Gatekeeper', banished to purgatory for his sins, but vowing to cause as much mayhem and destruction to all of the wannabe's as he possibly can.

 

Then Sting shows up... because he wants to fight the main roster, but has to be through Raven first.

[UkWrestleFan]

Y'know, BP, I had a simialr idea yesterday. Was going to fire up a real world game and re-package current day WWE (with some kind of awesome explanation, of course) It would be three brands:

 

WWE (Which would have Monday Night RAW)

WCW (Which would replace SmackDown! and have Friday Nitro)

ECW (Which would remain the same, possibly with a bit more edge)

 

RAW would be the show that focussed more on entertainment.

Nitro on actual wrestling and high-flying

ECW on youngsters but with a much edgier product (More hardcore, almost like the Attitude Era)

 

If I had more time on my hands I'd run with this but time is hard to come by these days (for good reasons, not bad)

[praguepride]

You could have it as "WWE Proving Ground" a place where folks from all over the world come to get onto the 'real' shows, RAW & Smackdown. Not only rookies, but wrestlers from the defeated promotions. WCW and ECW. Raven could start calling himself 'The Gatekeeper', banished to purgatory for his sins, but vowing to cause as much mayhem and destruction to all of the wannabe's as he possibly can.

 

Then Sting shows up... because he wants to fight the main roster, but has to be through Raven first.

 

Actually that's an interesting idea.

 

Anyway, my opinion would be to keep Smackdown and Raw. Nitro is dead. BUT you said that Raw would be a throwback show, and that would be a perfect place to have a WCW vs. WWE storyline. Have Sting and company come in to fill the gaps as you shuffle people over to SD and the new show (probably ECW). You can run the invasion angle but do it in a far better way then in real life now that Vince has had time to gloat and strut.

 

You'd need to do it subtle though, not just have a bunch of guys come in and say "We're WCW, b****es". You'd have, say Sting, start forming alliances and such and eventually build that up and have the WCW reveal as part of the blow off.

 

Anyway, Monday Night Wars returns, but self contained with RAW.

 

SD would continue to be WWE's standard modern product with the main WWE showcase.

 

ECW could be both the proving grounds and the edgier side. Practically this takes advantage of younger wrestlers being more willing to do crazy things (and more able to recover from them afterwards). The whole "Raven is the gatekeeper) thing would remain in effect because ECW would be a B-show. Hell, you can even have "tryout tournaments" for when you want to move people up to Raw or Smackdown.

 

On that note you could have Raw (WCW and WWE) as well as SD coming into ECW to try and persuade people to come to their show. Sting and whoever WWE face could come down to ECW for recruits for the war to get some interbrand storylines going on.

[Bigpapa42]

You could have it as "WWE Proving Ground" a place where folks from all over the world come to get onto the 'real' shows, RAW & Smackdown. Not only rookies, but wrestlers from the defeated promotions. WCW and ECW. Raven could start calling himself 'The Gatekeeper', banished to purgatory for his sins, but vowing to cause as much mayhem and destruction to all of the wannabe's as he possibly can.

 

Then Sting shows up... because he wants to fight the main roster, but has to be through Raven first.

 

I like this idea. And what PP expounds upon. I like it quite a lot.

 

The only "problem" is that after playing around in both the 2002 and 2003 data last night, I'm leaning towards going with the April 2002 data. Right when the brand split first happened. Its not so much the mods themselves, which I think are both good quality, but it just feels more "right' to start at that point. To actually be able to evolve the second brand right from the start. Then possibly a third down the road, rather than trying to balance all three right from the start. I know I can deal with three, but its a lot.

 

This is what I'm thining - start in April 2002 and make the second WWE brand into WWE Nitro. I know the arguements against it (valid) and its stealing from Genadi (who I hope won't mind), but I just like the idea of it. The Nitro brand becomes a hybrid of WCW and what Smackdown became. Have Shane (assigned by the board of directors) and Bischoff (appointed by McMahon) as co-GMs, both struggling against the other to impose their vision upon the brand. Shane wants it to be the action-based SD-style, while Bischoff wants it to be the shiny and chaotic like WCW.

 

As for actually splitting the roster, I am leaning towards the idea of having the draft being done gradually, over a few weeks. It would not be straight down WWF/WCW lines, but a good portion of it would be. Triple H and Michaels on Raw, with Hogan, Undertaker and Angle to Nitro. Rock and Austin could be to either, possibly. Lesnar proabably to Raw. Sting and Goldberg both arrive somewhere around here, but Sting surprises everyone and goes to Raw (not decided on Goldberg). Re-introduce the WCW World title in about May - rather than sticking with the single unified title for as long as they did - and hold a tournament. With the likes of Hogan, Undertaker, and Angle as the favorites, its a huge shock when Raven wins the tournament to become champion.

 

Raven become champion would serve a purpose beyond my strange infatuation with him (damn you, Nevermore!). As the champion, he inserts himself into the battle between Shane and Bischoff for the soul and direction of the Nitro brand. He wants to make it hardcore - the ECW element. I know Raven was never really more than a midcarder in WCW (that I know of), but I just picture him and his newly-formed Flock finding ways to outsmart a series of babyface challengers - Undertaker, then Hogan, Goldberg, and so on. Maybe even The Rock. But no one can overcome the brains and numbers of Raven and his Flock. Finally, Sting comes over and takes the belt from Raven. Maybe even have Sting win the Royal Rumble and set it up for WM, though I don't know that I would want his title reign to go almost a full year....

 

Sometime after that, he ends up on the losing end of a feud that sees him banished from the Nitro brand. Like Nevemore's vision of Raven, he becomes hated and despised. Realizing he has no place on Raw and that he can't change either brand to suit him, he conspires with Heyman to resurrect ECW as the third brand. Which is where the proving ground idea comes in... New talent is brought through this new ECW brand, to be "seasoned" in its vicious environs as they prove themsevles. Should they prove themselves, they get the chance to move on. In his "gate-keeper" role, Raven could be the perrenial ECW champion. A natural feud for anyone who should move on to one of the other brands with some momentum and overness...

 

I doubt the game will last long enough to play that out, but I definitely like that thought...

[Guest KingOfKings]

Well, if in fact you would bring Sting onto your roster. Having him on your ECW roster would seem to be a waste. He's just not the type to travel into the land of "hardcore". I say place him on your number 1 show, which would most likely be RAW, but the idea of Sting in a tag team also seems a bit farfetched. Some of you guys have some great ideas though.

 

Also might I ask, where did you get the 2003 mod? Iv'e been looking for one for TEW 2008 for the longest time.

[Bigpapa42]

Well, if in fact you would bring Sting onto your roster. Having him on your ECW roster would seem to be a waste. He's just not the type to travel into the land of "hardcore". I say place him on your number 1 show, which would most likely be RAW, but the idea of Sting in a tag team also seems a bit farfetched. Some of you guys have some great ideas though.

 

Also might I ask, where did you get the 2003 mod? Iv'e been looking for one for TEW 2008 for the longest time.

 

The 2003 is available on the board here. Just think the link got bured in the mods forum. Solid mod, from what I've found. Some ratings are a touch high, which can make running the WWE a bit easy.

 

http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56653

 

If I introduced ECW, either in a 2002 or 2003, I wouldn't make it a pure hardcore environmment. I've always felt the original ECW was more than blood and pain. Yeah, it would have plenty of that, but also a modern diverse focus at the same time. The kind of place where anyone with talent can excel. So while it might not be ideal for Sting, I don't think he would necessarily be "out of place"... especially if you used his cold, baseball-bat wielding approach...

 

As for putting him in a tag team, I don't mean as a regular thing. I just like to find occassional tag team partners for most of my singles workers in most games. Someone they can be sorta of aligned with and tag with when necessary. I like a strong tag division, but moreso, its a way to advance feuds while not running into the repetitive booking penalty. A talented team, with either good chemsitry or some experience, can put on some great matches. That was my thought with putting Sting together with someone like Shawn Michaels or maybe the Undertaker... just an occassional partner.

[Guest KingOfKings]

So basically you want ECW to run like the modern day ECW with the exception that hardcore rules still apply?. I can see it working. But I still feel Sting belongs on the A show of the company. His loner persona just works for him so well. Tag teaming with the likes of HBK and Taker look like it's the way to go, although I see Taker as the only belivable option.

[Bigpapa42]

So basically you want ECW to run like the modern day ECW with the exception that hardcore rules still apply?. I can see it working. But I still feel Sting belongs on the A show of the company. His loner persona just works for him so well. Tag teaming with the likes of HBK and Taker look like it's the way to go, although I see Taker as the only belivable option.

 

Yes and no. The basic function would be similar to what ECW is now. But the product would be something much more. Ideally, at least - I'm not sure how well it would work in the game. But I don't really like the current WWE ideology of three different brands just being an opportunity to offer the fans more of essentially the same product (some slight differences, but minor in my opinion). I see separate brands as more of an opportunity to appeal to a wider variety of fans. Moreso like how Raw and SD differed in the early day of the brand split. And I see an ECW that would appeal to the fans that the WWE simply doesn't at this point. "Cult" fans, I guess. The best description I can give is a mix of the hardcore of real ECW and the diversity of Ring of Honor... So it might not appeal to the fans who prefer the Sports Entertainment of Raw, but that would be the point...

[blslivewire]

I haven't checked in a while, has the ever been a mod based on the 2001 Invasion?

[Bigpapa42]

Alright, this is what ends up happening when I put a lot of thought and consideration into an idea that I like. I have a tendency to "envision" things, at which point I want to write it out, and then I want to share. So I'm sharing. This isn't a "diary preview" - it would go in the appropriate thread, plus I have zero intention of turning this into a diary project. Its simply that once I started to put some thought into the actual characterization of Raven as a main player in the WWE, as the champion a Nitro brand in 2002, I wanted to play out some of those thoughts...

 

The raucous New York City crowd gets louder as the lights in the arena drop. Total darkness. The opening strains of "The End of Everything" by Steromud fills the arena, the music almost drowned out by the reactionary boos of the fans. The music is unaccompanied by pyrotechnics or a light show. The darkness remains as the negativity from the crowd slowly dies down. The darkness is then sliced open by a single spotlight, shining down from the heavens… or at least the upper reaches of the arena. The single spotlight highlights a solitary figure, moving in an unhurried manner down the ramp toward the ring.

 

The figure doesn't have the powerful and uprgight strides of a champoin athlete. It doesn't display the confident strut of might expect of a WWE Supertar. The figure moves with head down and shoulders bowed, moving forward in an almost shuffling manner. The appearance of the figure could be that of a homeless person - torn jean shorts, a battered leather jacket, and straggly hair hanging down over the dark face. Something is being carried in the figure's right hand, dragging behind on the ground… a championship belt…

 

This is Raven. This is the unwelcome, unwanted figurehead of the WWE Nitro brand.

 

The WCW World Heavyweight champion slowly climbs into the ring. He stoops to pick up a microphone that was left in the empty ring. Moving slowly, he shuffles to the center of the ring and lays the big gold belt down flat in the center of the ring. Laid out, as if being offered up to anyone willing to try to take it from the champion. The man himself takes a seat in the corner of the ring. The lone spotlight stays on the title belt, while two more light the champion in the corner. The rest of the ring is still gloomy, fading into darkness outside the ring.

 

The music ceases and the silence stretches out, prompting a rising roar of negatvity from the MSG fans. Raven looks up, smirking at this reception. He slowly raises the microphone to speak…

 

"Desire… Motivation… Hope… These are ugly things. We all use them, aspire to be something. But what do you aspire to be? Is it something worthwhile… or meaningless and a waste, like everything else in life? Why is is, so often, that our goals must come at the expense of another, to cause someone else pain and anguish and suffering?

 

Every night, I walk through that locker room back there, I feel it. I feel their eyes on me. Envious. Hateful. Wanting what I have. They dream to unthrone me, to cast me down into my own spiral of empty despair. Yet waht they desire and hope for, what they dream of, it really doesn't matter. Its what you are now, today, at the very moment, that can only truly. I look right back at these enemies of mine and I see what these people are. And I laugh, because what they are does not impress. It doesn't matter…

 

It doesn't matter if you are a legend - an icon - and did amzing things a decade ago. It doesn't matter if you are a movie star or on the covers of fashion magainzes. It doesn't matter if you're the biggest man in the room. It doesn't matter if you are the baddest man in the room. It doesn't matter if you have the best catch phrases. It doesn't even matter if someone is beloved by you fans or not…"

 

This draws the obvious boos from the fans. Raven stops, smirking. He's standing now, but still in the corner. Shadowy shapes move in the gloom outside the ring, Raven's detested Flock.

 

"None of it matters. Because only that matters .The WCW World Heavyweight champoinship. What I have and what no one can take away from me. Anyone is welcome to try. I turn down no challengers. But we do it on my terms. On my rules. No matter who you are or what you are, I promise you that you will come up short in the quest to take this away."

 

Raven stops, looking out across the dark sea of fans who detest him and want nothing more than to see someone - anyone - take that belt away from him.

 

"Because you can no more take this belt from me than the young man can take back his innocence once he learns how cold and hard this world is… All those desires, hopes, and dreams mean nothing when you are facing The Raven..."

 

With a devilish grin, Raven drops the microphone and it hits the mat of the ring with an audible pop. He slides across the ring and underneath the bottom rope in snake-like fashion, snagging the belt on the way. He takes it with him as he heads back up the ramp, still followed by just a single solitary spotlight. The dark ominous shapes of his Flock follow behind in the darkness.

 

The arena fades to darkness once more, with the WCW World Heavyweight champion punctuating that darkness with a final, "Quoth the Raven..."...

[praguepride]

I know you enjoy him, but there is no way that Raven is popular enough to be main event material, let alone the first champion of a new brand. Maybe it's just me, but I think his popularity should be around the C range... popular for an indy, midcarder for the big leagues.

 

I could see him being a B-...maybe. The point is that he's only ever won Hardcore titles for the WWE (which should probably be a low card belt...) and he does it consistently which strikes me as a midcard stomper.

 

I'd say C+ popularity would be right for him, so you'd have to really grow him and give him a bit of a mega push to put him over Undertaker (who I'd give an 'A' popularity) and Angle (B's) as both of them by that point have won the WWE championship title several times.

 

In short, if you throw Raven into the B-show's, he's fine as a main event, but on the A-shows you'd be over pushing him.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, he'd make a great champion, but he's just not popular enough at the moment. You'd need to either spend time building him up to the main event level or risk over pushing him

[Bigpapa42]

No, you're correct, PP. Raven auto-pushes at Lower Midcard at the start of the game in April 2002. Rightfully so - he's only the Hardcore champion. So he's not in a position to headline immediately. The plan is to have the draft play out over the month of April, so the two brands are set and separate at the start of May. The 16-man tournament for the re-introduced WCW World title would take most of May. So there's basically two months to build him up. Easy enough to do in game terms, but would it work? Not sure...

 

One thing I'm considering is having Raven get a notable win on his way to the Nitro brand. Rather than doing a one-night draft as was done, I'm doing it gradually, a couple of names announced per show. As the draft goes along, I might have "competitive decisions" - where midcard guys have a match and the winner gets to choose their brand. The idea of McMahon and Flair having "fun" with it. So maybe Raven gets thrown in against someone he's expected to lose to - maybe Big Show - but pulls out an unlikely. win. He chooses Nitro. On Nitro, he inserts himself into the title tournament, almost stalking GM Shane McMahon in a rather creepy manner. Raven is a long-shot for the title, expected to lose in each round. But he keeps finding a way, outsmarting his opponents. It finally comes down to Hulk Hogan and Raven, with everyone obviously expecting Hogan to win it. The WCW fans probably hate it as its Hogan taking over Nitro again, while old school WWF fans might look forward to "one last title run" for the Hulkster. But instead, Raven takes an improbable win. Maybe even a lucky one. A bit like Sheamus taking the WWE title. I like that it would "set the tone" for the Nitro brand as something different from what fans might expect, as not simply the same thing of either Raw or WCW. Everyone expects Raven to lose the belt immediately. Yet Raven wins... and wins... and wins... He's outsmarting opponents, tilting things to his advantage. After a few months, he adds his Flock as his protection...

 

Would such an approach have worked in "reality"? I have my doubts. You can't force the fans to take to someone in reality the way you can in the game simply by plastering them onto shows. If I was doing a diary of this, I would have some reservations over whether I could get the readers to buy it...

 

Before I decided on this approach, I did consider all the other possibilities for the first Nitro brand champion. I considered the likes of Hogan, Undertaker, Angle, Benoit, Booker T, Steiner, and Sting... I even thought about some of the talent that will end up on the other brand, like Rock, Austin, Triple H, Flair, Jericho, Big Show, RvD, Lesnar, Michaels, Edge, Regal. Foley... Almost all of them fell into one of two categories - either feeling like it was a "WWF guy" being put on the WCW brand (and that happened enough throughout The Invasion) or a "WCW guy" for the sake of staying with the WCW feel, and that doesn't feel right either. I woudln't want the WWE Nitro brand to just be WCW resurrected. Its supposed to be a hybrid. Having a worker who has a history with the WWE, WCW, and ECW as the first champion keeps it feeling open (in my mind) and shows things as a "new beginning" rather than "same old".

[hainnemeBap]

WWE Third Brand Thoughts

 

Ive come to enjoy TNA a lot more than I have in the past recently, but Ill still take WWE any day. All my favorite wrestlers are there, along with most of the top talent.

[Bigpapa42]

I haven't checked in a while, has the ever been a mod based on the 2001 Invasion?

 

Meant to answer this the other day. As far as I am aware, no, not for TEW 2008. I could be wrong, but I don't believe there is a 2001 mod that starts right as The Invasion kicks off.

 

As for the game.... I'm so stinking fickle right now. I just can't stick with a game or idea for long. Started with the April 2002 game and got a few weeks in. Things were going well as everything started to play out... Then I got think about the time it would to build up Cena and Orton (both in development), plus Lesnar still needing work (will gain overness easy, thanks to Menace and Star Quality, but he's not good enough for me to trust him with a main belt for awhile). Plus the thought of booking Hogan suddenly inexplicably less appealing. So the game just didn't appeal to me nearly as much and I can't explain why. So I'm back to starting up in September 2003 on the other data, with the intent of setting up a third brand with Raven as the "gatekeeper".

 

I can't stick with any one game lately. I just bounce from idea to idea, game to game. Like a kid in a candy store, constantly distracted by something with prettier colors. Ah well....