Official NBA Discussion Thread

[Imarevenant]

Peter, would you be willing to elaborate why winning a title with the Knicks would have helped LBJ legacy please?

 

New York has long been considered the Mecca of Basketball. It goes beyond just the NBA and Knicks. It goes all the way to the legendary playground tournaments and the whole culture surrounding the game there. Everyone who knows a little bit about basketball knows about Rucker Park and the Rucker Tournaments there.

 

For a team, representing a city steeped in basketball tradition, to fair so poorly in the sport is pretty tragic. They are one of only 2 original NBA teams and although they only have 2 championships to their name, in the past they were always in the picture competing for the division and conference championships. It's a franchise with a lot of history and a lot of tradition that has fallen on very bad times.

 

If Lebron were to have gone to NY and brought that team back to relevance and even more brought a championship to the Knicks it would have definitely cemented his legacy. It goes deeper than just getting that ring, it would have revitalized a storied franchise in probably the largest hub of basketball culture in the country.

[Imarevenant]

In other Non-Lebron NBA news, it should be announced today that the Golden State Warriors have been released from the reign of Chris Cowen with the sale of the team to Oracle Co-Founder and CEO, Larry Ellison.

 

I've been a Spurs fan for 20 years now, however, living in the bay area it's hard not to root for the Warriors. And it has everything to do with their fans and those fans passion for the game. The 2007 playoff year was one of the most memorable basketball experiences I've ever had. Watching those fans get so excited about a 1st round series was outstanding. This team if they ever got their **** together could have just a phenomenal fanbase and atmosphere.

 

It's criminal that it's been wasted so long now by Cowen and his inept front office. Hopefully, with Ellison taking control things will change. First they need to rid themselves of Don Nelson and his grip on the front office so that mistakes like trading Anthony Randolph for the rights to overpay David Lee don't happen again.

[PeterHilton]

Peter, would you be willing to elaborate why winning a title with the Knicks would have helped LBJ legacy please?

 

Sure...

 

First off, you have to realize that no matter where he went, Cleveland would've been hurt. So you just have to concede that hit to his image.

 

But if he went to New York..

 

Right off the bat, in NY he's THE MAN as opposed to the perception in Miami that he's going to end up as Wade's sidekick. He would be THE big star.

 

Secondly, New York is one of (if not the biggest) media centers in the world. He would've elevated his profile simply by being in NY: the Knicks on national TV would draw huge ratings, he would've had even more commercial and merchandise opportunities, he would've made basketball trendy and hip in NY to the point where there would've been more celebrities in the crowds there than in the crowds in LA, Letterman would've been talking about him every week on the Late Show..all 4 major networks are based in NY...there's just no way to measure how much bigger Lebron would've been as a marketing tool had he signed in NY.

 

Finally, New York historically is incredibly significant to people who care about basketball. Even if you aren't talking about the Knicks specifically (they haven't been significant since the Willis Reed/Walt Frazier days), NY has been one of the centers of the basketball universe since before the NBA existed: Lew Alcindor played HS ball in Manhattan. Bob Cousy, Queens. Billy Cunningham, Connie Hawkins, Lenny Wilkens, Bernard King—all from Brooklyn. The kings of the Bronx; Dolph Schayes, Richie Guerin and Tiny Archibald.

 

We're talking about streetball legends like Earl "The Goat" Manigault, Rick "Pee Wee" Kirkland, Joe "The Destroyer" Hammond.

 

Throw in playground battles at Rucker Park and the social significance of the Harlem Globetrotters.

 

And those late 60s/early 70s Knicks were dominating: 2 titles in three Finals runs in 4 years. Seven Knicks players from this championship are in the Hall of Fame.

 

*******************************************************

 

So yeah...if Lebron goes to the media center of the world, is the centerpiece of a team that wins one or two titles, play in a city steeped in basketball tradition, front of fans that are STARVING to give them a reason to fall in love with a sport that their fathers and grandfathers came up watching...it'd be HUGE.

 

He'd be the Jeter of the New York Knicks..a living legend.

[lazorbeak]

Even if you aren't talking about the Knicks specifically (they haven't been significant since the Willis Reed/Walt Frazier days)

 

I don't agree they haven't been significant for that long. It's been 10 years since they were a good team but they went to the finals twice in the 90's and probably would've gone one or two times more if not for playing against one of the greatest players in the history of the game so many times. Seriously they were one of the best teams in the league for an entire decade and their rivalries with the Bulls, Pacers, and Heat were huge at the time.

[PeterHilton]

I don't agree they haven't been significant for that long. It's been 10 years since they were a good team but they went to the finals twice in the 90's and probably would've gone one or two times more if not for playing against one of the greatest players in the history of the game so many times. Seriously they were one of the best teams in the league for an entire decade and their rivalries with the Bulls, Pacers, and Heat were huge at the time.

 

Fair enough...I guess saying they weren't 'significant' is unfair.

 

Although..I HATED those Riley/Ewing/Anthony Mason teams. That was the ugliest most godforsaken brand of basketball I've ever seen. They set the league back 10 years in terms of playing style.

[lazorbeak]

Fair enough...I guess saying they weren't 'significant' is unfair.

 

Although..I HATED those Riley/Ewing/Anthony Mason teams. That was the ugliest most godforsaken brand of basketball I've ever seen. They set the league back 10 years in terms of playing style.

 

Oh yeah they were thugs and as a player and fan I absolutely hated that team and automatically rooted for whoever they played against, but they were definitely significant. God that feud between the Van Gundy's Knicks and Riley's Heat resulted in some of the ugliest basketball I've ever seen. It's so odd to me that I really enjoy Van Gundy in the booth as I absolutely loathed him when he coached the Knicks.

[MGreene78]

Sure...

 

First off, you have to realize that no matter where he went, Cleveland would've been hurt. So you just have to concede that hit to his image.

 

But if he went to New York..

 

Right off the bat, in NY he's THE MAN as opposed to the perception in Miami that he's going to end up as Wade's sidekick. He would be THE big star.

 

Secondly, New York is one of (if not the biggest) media centers in the world. He would've elevated his profile simply by being in NY: the Knicks on national TV would draw huge ratings, he would've had even more commercial and merchandise opportunities, he would've made basketball trendy and hip in NY to the point where there would've been more celebrities in the crowds there than in the crowds in LA, Letterman would've been talking about him every week on the Late Show..all 4 major networks are based in NY...there's just no way to measure how much bigger Lebron would've been as a marketing tool had he signed in NY.

 

Finally, New York historically is incredibly significant to people who care about basketball. Even if you aren't talking about the Knicks specifically (they haven't been significant since the Willis Reed/Walt Frazier days), NY has been one of the centers of the basketball universe since before the NBA existed: Lew Alcindor played HS ball in Manhattan. Bob Cousy, Queens. Billy Cunningham, Connie Hawkins, Lenny Wilkens, Bernard King—all from Brooklyn. The kings of the Bronx; Dolph Schayes, Richie Guerin and Tiny Archibald.

 

We're talking about streetball legends like Earl "The Goat" Manigault, Rick "Pee Wee" Kirkland, Joe "The Destroyer" Hammond.

 

Throw in playground battles at Rucker Park and the social significance of the Harlem Globetrotters.

 

And those late 60s/early 70s Knicks were dominating: 2 titles in three Finals runs in 4 years. Seven Knicks players from this championship are in the Hall of Fame.

 

*******************************************************

 

So yeah...if Lebron goes to the media center of the world, is the centerpiece of a team that wins one or two titles, play in a city steeped in basketball tradition, front of fans that are STARVING to give them a reason to fall in love with a sport that their fathers and grandfathers came up watching...it'd be HUGE.

 

He'd be the Jeter of the New York Knicks..a living legend.

 

I still don't see how playing in New York would have helped Lebron's Legacy. Your first point about the media really had nothing to do with his legacy of basketball, but more of in brand in general. I agree that New York is rich in basketball history, but again a lot of the stuff you just mentioned dates back before Lebron was ever born. Knicks may have a lot of history and that's fine and all, but the team has been a horrible franchise for 10 years running.

 

IMHO Lebron would have cemented his legacy with the Cavs. It's his hometown team, who has no championships, never won a conf or divison title before him, and was woeful before him. The city is dying, economy failing, and the Sports teams have had glimpses of hope but that's about it. Lebron was the only true person who could have given them a title. I feel his legacy would have been helped best if he just had stayed.

 

 

Peter you made a very good arguement for the Knicks and I would have wanted you on the Knicks panel when the pitched to him . I still just feel though that New York needed James, not the other way around. Again good points though mate.

[PeterHilton]

IMHO Lebron would have cemented his legacy with the Cavs. It's his hometown team, who has no championships, never won a conf or divison title before him, and was woeful before him. The city is dying, economy failing, and the Sports teams have had glimpses of hope but that's about it. Lebron was the only true person who could have given them a title. I feel his legacy would have been helped best if he just had stayed.

 

 

Peter you made a very good arguement for the Knicks and I would have wanted you on the Knicks panel when the pitched to him . I still just feel though that New York needed James, not the other way around. Again good points though mate.

 

True enough. The Knicks needed him more.

 

If he stays in Cleveland and wins a title, all your points are true. And I guess what I'm saying is that I'm taking for granted that - had he stayed in Cleveland - he was never winning a title. They were never going to attract another star player.

 

So the choice was to be loyal and become a modern day Karl Malone, or go somewhere else and win a title. And of his choices, I think NY would've done the most for his image, Chicago would've given him the best chance to win immediately where he was the focal point of the team, and Miami...well until i see otherwise Miami was the easy way out.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Of course NY needs James. They all need James and James to an extent doesn't really need anybody. He could march into almost any team and make them relevant(not necessarily enough for a title, but relevant as an upper-tier contender). Just as well, Cleveland need James too and they damn sure got their bite of him.

 

Media = marketing or vice versa and marketing does the job in putting the spotlight on a player. March into a big city team and you'll get it made. And the fact that those things happened before LeBron was born is exactly the point; a revitalization is needed in the franchise and if LeBron brought that, he would reach iconic levels. The spotlight would be damn near blinding him. I think his legacy would've been solid in either club, NY or Cleveland, but things weren't to be. And now it just looks like he'll be a part of the "Big 3".

[MGreene78]

True enough. The Knicks needed him more.

 

If he stays in Cleveland and wins a title, all your points are true. And I guess what I'm saying is that I'm taking for granted that - had he stayed in Cleveland - he was never winning a title. They were never going to attract another star player.

 

So the choice was to be loyal and become a modern day Karl Malone, or go somewhere else and win a title. And of his choices, I think NY would've done the most for his image, Chicago would've given him the best chance to win immediately where he was the focal point of the team, and Miami...well until i see otherwise Miami was the easy way out.

 

okay yes. Sorry I thought you meant earlier that Cleveland wouldn't have done anything for his legacy. I didn't take in to account he might never win a title there or the fact you were comparing the Heat to the Knicks.

 

Black, I think James needed Cleveland. Not for the fact that it's his hometown or anything, but more because he left unfinished business. Gatorbait has stated on here before that Cleveland did give Lebron talent. Now while that is true, and I am sure most could agree, It wasn't Lebron's Pippen. I due think though if Lebron would have stayed they would have been able to sign another big time free agent. Maybe not in this years free agent class, but next years for sure.

 

But I guess none of that matters now . Lebron will have to prove he can now win with that great talent around him. I doubt that could be difficult.

[Imarevenant]

In a twist, Cohan sticks it to Warriors fans one more time on the way out the door. Everyone wanted Larry Ellison as the new owner because of his deep pockets and win at all costs attitude.

 

However, seems a Boston Celtics minority owner and the owner of a movie production company won the bidding and bought the Warriors for a record $450 million (seriously what are the Lakers and Celtics worth if the Warriors goes for that!). And how on earth is the NBA claiming to have lost over $400 mil this year when teams like GState are selling for $450. Hello lockout lol

[GatorBait19]

In a twist, Cohan sticks it to Warriors fans one more time on the way out the door. Everyone wanted Larry Ellison as the new owner because of his deep pockets and win at all costs attitude.

 

However, seems a Boston Celtics minority owner and the owner of a movie production company won the bidding and bought the Warriors for a record $450 million (seriously what are the Lakers and Celtics worth if the Warriors goes for that!). And how on earth is the NBA claiming to have lost over $400 mil this year when teams like GState are selling for $450. Hello lockout lol

 

lol imagne what teams like the Lakers, Spurs, Knicks, Celtics, Magic, Heat, and other teams with good records, attendance, and new stadiums would cost. Also it sucks for Warrior fans, but deep pockets isn't everything

 

1) They can only spend 90 million a year no matter what. That's the hard cap and they can't go over it.

 

2) Deep pockets doesn't mean the ability to put talent on the field. Look and Dan Synder of the Redskins, he has some real deep pockets. That team was dreadful the last couple years. Heck the Bucs almost beat them last year and I think the Lions did.

 

Warriors' fans shouldn't be to upset since this guy has watch how the Celtics run things and how to build a championship

 

1) Trade for three aging stars

2) Find a coach

3) Draft a PG that fell in the draft and comes out to be one of the top PG in the game

4) Build around them. lol

[Imarevenant]

lol imagne what teams like the Lakers, Spurs, Knicks, Celtics, Magic, Heat, and other teams with good records, attendance, and new stadiums would cost. Also it sucks for Warrior fans, but deep pockets isn't everything

 

1) They can only spend 90 million a year no matter what. That's the hard cap and they can't go over it.

 

2) Deep pockets doesn't mean the ability to put talent on the field. Look and Dan Synder of the Redskins, he has some real deep pockets. That team was dreadful the last couple years. Heck the Bucs almost beat them last year and I think the Lions did.

 

Why is Dallas able to insert themselves in every free agency and trade deadline deal? Why are they able to so effortlessly keep Dirk and their other free agents with the team? Sure they have to stay within the cap but Marc Cuban spends his money on facilities and on pampering his players. They love to play for him as an owner because they are treated better than pretty much everyone else in the league. It's why Dallas can attract free agents.

 

Cuban has like 1/15th of Larry Ellison's wealth, but they both share that competitive business attribute that makes them need to succeed in whatever they are doing. 38 BILLION is more than any NBA owner has ever been worth, and it's not even close.

 

Ellison would have been able to hire the top flight executives and coaches that the Warrior fans have never had here. He would have been able to make the team an actual desirable free agency destination because he could have spent mightely on his players just like Cuban does now. And really, the San Francisco area is potentially a much better draw than many areas as well. Hell, if teams like Pheonix wanted to sell their draft picks do you think a measly 1 - 2 million dollars would have made Ellison blink?

 

Sure the team would have still needed to manage the cap and make the right moves but it would be much easier to accomplish when you can hire the best in the business to do that and when you can take advantage of situations like teams trading picks away for money. Would it guarantee success. Nope, but I wouldn't have bet against Ellison at all.

 

Word is, he's much more interested in buying an NFL franchise and moving it to L.A. though. Wouldn't be surprise to see that happen soon either.

[Slagaholic]

Take a break from the long winded posts and take a look at the greatest YouTube video ever made

 

[MGreene78]

lol imagne what teams like the Lakers, Spurs, Knicks, Celtics, Magic, Heat, and other teams with good records, attendance, and new stadiums would cost. Also it sucks for Warrior fans, but deep pockets isn't everything

 

1) They can only spend 90 million a year no matter what. That's the hard cap and they can't go over it.

 

2) Deep pockets doesn't mean the ability to put talent on the field. Look and Dan Synder of the Redskins, he has some real deep pockets. That team was dreadful the last couple years. Heck the Bucs almost beat them last year and I think the Lions did.

 

Warriors' fans shouldn't be to upset since this guy has watch how the Celtics run things and how to build a championship

 

1) Trade for three aging stars

2) Find a coach

3) Draft a PG that fell in the draft and comes out to be one of the top PG in the game

4) Build around them. lol

 

Why is Dallas able to insert themselves in every free agency and trade deadline deal? Why are they able to so effortlessly keep Dirk and their other free agents with the team? Sure they have to stay within the cap but Marc Cuban spends his money on facilities and on pampering his players. They love to play for him as an owner because they are treated better than pretty much everyone else in the league. It's why Dallas can attract free agents.

 

Cuban has like 1/15th of Larry Ellison's wealth, but they both share that competitive business attribute that makes them need to succeed in whatever they are doing. 38 BILLION is more than any NBA owner has ever been worth, and it's not even close.

 

Ellison would have been able to hire the top flight executives and coaches that the Warrior fans have never had here. He would have been able to make the team an actual desirable free agency destination because he could have spent mightely on his players just like Cuban does now. And really, the San Francisco area is potentially a much better draw than many areas as well. Hell, if teams like Pheonix wanted to sell their draft picks do you think a measly 1 - 2 million dollars would have made Ellison blink?

 

Sure the team would have still needed to manage the cap and make the right moves but it would be much easier to accomplish when you can hire the best in the business to do that and when you can take advantage of situations like teams trading picks away for money. Would it guarantee success. Nope, but I wouldn't have bet against Ellison at all.

 

Word is, he's much more interested in buying an NFL franchise and moving it to L.A. though. Wouldn't be surprise to see that happen soon either.

 

You both make good points, but also you fail to see other things. First Imarevenant, the money is wonderful but also Larry Ellison's greatest claim to fame in sports is boat racing. He knows nothing about the business and while he can throw uddles of money to executives, those executives have to want to go to the Warriors. Also again you talk about him thowing money and making it a free agent hot spot, but yet none of the other teams in the Cali area are hugh free agent hotspots. Cali is a hard place to live with the taxes so as much as it pains me to say this, Cali born and raised, No place in Cali will be a free agent hot spot with the income. I believe the tax rate for people who make over 1 million is 10%, to where places like Florida where there is none and New York where it's like 6.5%.

 

Last point for you is you named Mark Cuban and the things he does with his money. Yes he has put together contending teams and can pay people money, but again how much he plays players means nothing. Why, simple he can play people who have been with his team bird rights. Meaning they can get top offer from there. Once they hit the cap limit they can still go like another 20 million before they can't spend money on players anymore, no free agents, no draft picks. Also the NBA monitors everything and the guy with the deepest pockets would be watched. Plus I doubt this guy would just go in there and spend, he is a business man first and I am sure even at 26 or 36 billion he doesn't want to lose money. Mark Cuban spends all that money, but yet he still doesn't have a title. So again Money doesn't instantly mean great owner. Also they aren't in every free agency, they were talked about in this years because they had expiring contracts and the ability to give the Cavs trade pieces.

 

 

Gatorbait, you had some good comments and I think Imarevenant might have just taken what you said the wrong way. I do agree money isn't everything, but it does help. Also I once again agree that the owner the Warriors got will probably be better down the line because of the fact that he has experience in the league. The fact that he was apart of the Celtics the last couple of years doesn't hurt at all and it gives the Celtics, if the Warriors can turn it around, another nonconfernce rival.

 

Otherwise, good points by both of you and we will have to see how this pans out. Also Imarevenant, NFL would be a better place for Ellison to start. If he overpays a player in that league then cuts him, his salary only counts for that one year towards the cap. In the NBA it counts each year and that is what kills a lot of franchises ie Knicks, Magic with Grant.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Take a break from the long winded posts and take a look at the greatest YouTube video ever made

 

 

Quality stuff.

[MGreene78]

I found one of Dwight Howard mocking Lebron

 

http://www.twitvid.com/IUFIK

[randomfreeze]

Penny Hardaway says he'd like to play for the Heat.

 

I'll just go ahead and like to make my intentions clear for everyone as well, I'm announcing I wouldn't mind playing for the Heat either.

[GatorBait19]

Penny Hardaway says he'd like to play for the Heat.

 

I'll just go ahead and like to make my intentions clear for everyone as well, I'm announcing I wouldn't mind playing for the Heat either.

 

I agree, umm I am officially coming out of retirement as well, I don't even have to touch the court. I will just make the vet min. which is like 500k and sit as the 15th man on the roster

[GatorBait19]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5387157

 

man do I wanna try that beer, also I think this has gone on far enough with ESPN.

[smurphy1014]

Penny Hardaway says he'd like to play for the Heat.

 

I'll just go ahead and like to make my intentions clear for everyone as well, I'm announcing I wouldn't mind playing for the Heat either.

 

Count me in as well. Played ball in high school so I can handle the rigors of being on the bench. Also, played baseball for a long time so I can master the intricate high five actions of being in LeBron's introduction.

[Astil]

Oh yeah they were thugs and as a player and fan I absolutely hated that team and automatically rooted for whoever they played against, but they were definitely significant. God that feud between the Van Gundy's Knicks and Riley's Heat resulted in some of the ugliest basketball I've ever seen. It's so odd to me that I really enjoy Van Gundy in the booth as I absolutely loathed him when he coached the Knicks.

 

You just don't know basketball then, because to me, those where the days...

[GatorBait19]

Count me in as well. Played ball in high school so I can handle the rigors of being on the bench. Also, played baseball for a long time so I can master the intricate high five actions of being in LeBron's introduction.

 

Speaking of that does anyone watch Blue Mountain State of Spike TV and if so did you watch the season 1 finale?

[lazorbeak]

You just don't know basketball then, because to me, those where the days...

 

Sorry dude, I can/could play dirty when I had to, but that is not what basketball is about. Those games were ugly to watch, and this is coming from a Spurs fan. Maybe, just maybe, you're just feeling nostalgia for when you were 12 years old?

 

http://j4cbo.mirror.waffleimages.com/files/cf/cf42e36787754f581b9e93fa23e0b9882096b075.gif

[Astil]

Sorry dude, I can/could play dirty when I had to, but that is not what basketball is about. Those games were ugly to watch, and this is coming from a Spurs fan. Maybe, just maybe, you're just feeling nostalgia for when you were 12 years old?

 

http://j4cbo.mirror.waffleimages.com/files/cf/cf42e36787754f581b9e93fa23e0b9882096b075.gif

 

Could be. Could be I'm a die hard Knicks fan. I just wish someone nowadays had the balls and passion to set a proper screen or take someone out going to the hole to show the points don't come easy.

 

But of course that happens away from the ball and lowers scoring so it's not flashy...so no one cares T.T