Official NBA Discussion Thread

[BHK1978]

It's a smart move to get something for him if he wants out.

 

I have no problem with that, it happens in Baseball all of the time. My problem is the fact that because he is not happy he demands to be traded. Say the trade does not go through, will he not play to his full extent? Will he just dog it on the court until the season is over?

[GatorBait19]

I have no problem with that, it happens in Baseball all of the time. My problem is the fact that because he is not happy he demands to be traded. Say the trade does not go through, will he not play to his full extent? Will he just dog it on the court until the season is over?

 

Carmelo has really has really cleaned his act up in recent years. I see him still bustin his butt for that team through this year

[michgcs]

It looks like Melo might end up on the Nets. I really hate it when a star player holds a team hostage and forces the team to trade them. I guess that is what you get when you have a bunch of spoiled millionaires running around.

 

Yeah, I think it's getting to the point where the players are too spoiled. Maybe it's because of the number of teams in the league, or any of the changes that the NBA has made, but the players today (while probably more athletic than those past) are mostly mentally softer.

 

I really don't get how Melo can even consider asking for a trade after the success he's had in Denver. And in the same vein, LeBron as well. The Cavs had the best record the past couple of years, Shaq was an expiring, and had LeBron re-signed, I'm pretty sure other FAs would've come to him. Instead, we had to see "The Decision"

[GatorBait19]

Yeah, I think it's getting to the point where the players are too spoiled. Maybe it's because of the number of teams in the league, or any of the changes that the NBA has made, but the players today (while probably more athletic than those past) are mostly mentally softer.

 

I really don't get how Melo can even consider asking for a trade after the success he's had in Denver. And in the same vein, LeBron as well. The Cavs had the best record the past couple of years, Shaq was an expiring, and had LeBron re-signed, I'm pretty sure other FAs would've come to him. Instead, we had to see "The Decision"

 

I agree with parts. I think if Lebron would have committed to the Cavs big free agents would have come to Cleveland, but we will never know there.

 

I think Carmelo wants to be traded to another team with talent for a couple of reasons

 

1) He is all Denver has. You could point out Billups, but he's past his prime and isn't getting better. Martin was a bust signing and they overpaid other players (cough) Nene (cough).

 

2) He is 25 or 26 and with the collection of talent the Heat have put together he sees he needs to go somewhere with other talent to match them.

 

 

As I said before, Carmelo has matured leaps and bounds since coming into the league. I thought he handled the offseason well. He didn't threaten the Nugs by any means IMHO. He just didn't sign the extension. I think he wants to see what is out there next offseason.

[michgcs]

I agree with parts. I think if Lebron would have committed to the Cavs big free agents would have come to Cleveland, but we will never know there.

 

I think Carmelo wants to be traded to another team with talent for a couple of reasons

 

1) He is all Denver has. You could point out Billups, but he's past his prime and isn't getting better. Martin was a bust signing and they overpaid other players (cough) Nene (cough).

 

2) He is 25 or 26 and with the collection of talent the Heat have put together he sees he needs to go somewhere with other talent to match them.

 

 

As I said before, Carmelo has matured leaps and bounds since coming into the league. I thought he handled the offseason well. He didn't threaten the Nugs by any means IMHO. He just didn't sign the extension. I think he wants to see what is out there next offseason.

 

Yeah, I think this is easily resolvable for the Nuggets. A few trades here and there, and if Lawson continues to improve, and Nene stays healthy... Heck, even if they don't, it's not like they were bottom-feeders. They just had bad luck with George Karl being out to start the playoffs...

[GatorBait19]

Yeah, I think this is easily resolvable for the Nuggets. A few trades here and there, and if Lawson continues to improve, and Nene stays healthy... Heck, even if they don't, it's not like they were bottom-feeders. They just had bad luck with George Karl being out to start the playoffs...

 

I've always been shocked Melo isn't mentioned among the top 5 today in the NBA

[PeterHilton]

I've always been shocked Melo isn't mentioned among the top 5 today in the NBA

 

Because he's not. He's an extremely efficient scorer and he's money for the most part in the 4th quarter, but beyond that? He's not a great passer or offensive creator..he's an OK rebounder..he's not really special on defense..his FT % is a little low for someone with his type of game...

 

I mean, Carmelo is a GREAT player but..

 

..he's not the clutch performer that Kobe is

 

..he's not filling up the box score the way Lebron or Wade does

 

..he's not the offensive passer that guys like Chris Paul or Deron Williams is

 

..he's not the defensive game changer that guys like Dwight or KG are

 

...and if "all" he is, is a shoot first forward, then the first comparison is with Kevin Durant and Melo doesn't stack up. Not at all, actually

 

Carmel reminds me of Dominique Wilkins at his heights; a great player and a perennial All Star and possible HOFer who is just one small step below the truly great players in his era.

[lazorbeak]

Because he's not. He's an extremely efficient scorer and he's money for the most part in the 4th quarter, but beyond that? He's not a great passer or offensive creator..he's an OK rebounder..he's not really special on defense..his FT % is a little low for someone with his type of game...

 

I mean, Carmelo is a GREAT player but..

 

..he's not the clutch performer that Kobe is

 

..he's not filling up the box score the way Lebron or Wade does

 

..he's not the offensive passer that guys like Chris Paul or Deron Williams is

 

..he's not the defensive game changer that guys like Dwight or KG are

 

...and if "all" he is, is a shoot first forward, then the first comparison is with Kevin Durant and Melo doesn't stack up. Not at all, actually

 

Carmel reminds me of Dominique Wilkins at his heights; a great player and a perennial All Star and possible HOFer who is just one small step below the truly great players in his era.

 

Yeah I mean top 5 in the NBA means top 1 or possibly 2 at your position. 'Melo is a very good scorer but that's about it. His game isn't complete, and he's not a guy who will go out and win for you. It's like saying "gee I don't understand why Vince Carter isn't considered an all-time great." It's because he's not. He's a freak athlete and could be a top 5 type guy, but at the moment 'Melo is not that guy. He's too quick to fall in love with the outside shot and he's not really an elite player at any other aspect of the game. The highest 'Melo appeared on any stat that wasn't a scoring or minutes stat last season was #11 in efficiency rating. When you're #3 at your position it's tough to argue you're a top five player.

[GatorBait19]

Because he's not. He's an extremely efficient scorer and he's money for the most part in the 4th quarter, but beyond that? He's not a great passer or offensive creator..he's an OK rebounder..he's not really special on defense..his FT % is a little low for someone with his type of game...

 

I mean, Carmelo is a GREAT player but..

 

..he's not the clutch performer that Kobe is

 

..he's not filling up the box score the way Lebron or Wade does

 

..he's not the offensive passer that guys like Chris Paul or Deron Williams is

 

..he's not the defensive game changer that guys like Dwight or KG are

 

...and if "all" he is, is a shoot first forward, then the first comparison is with Kevin Durant and Melo doesn't stack up. Not at all, actually

 

Carmel reminds me of Dominique Wilkins at his heights; a great player and a perennial All Star and possible HOFer who is just one small step below the truly great players in his era.

 

good points that I can agree with. Check the FT% again and compare it to the likes of Wade and James

 

Yeah I mean top 5 in the NBA means top 1 or possibly 2 at your position. 'Melo is a very good scorer but that's about it. His game isn't complete, and he's not a guy who will go out and win for you. It's like saying "gee I don't understand why Vince Carter isn't considered an all-time great." It's because he's not. He's a freak athlete and could be a top 5 type guy, but at the moment 'Melo is not that guy. He's too quick to fall in love with the outside shot and he's not really an elite player at any other aspect of the game. The highest 'Melo appeared on any stat that wasn't a scoring or minutes stat last season was #11 in efficiency rating. When you're #3 at your position it's tough to argue you're a top five player.

 

see this is why I don't believe in the efficiency rating like you do. Kobe comes in at 13th on that list. That's a big reason why I have never liked that stat.

 

But, I can agree with you guys why he isn't top 5. What about top 10?

 

I like Carmelo he is a great player who turned the Nuggets around in one year with no other all-stars on his team.

 

 

Also here's an interesting read I found

 

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

 

the last time they did their study Carmelo came out on top. Also this website pretty much shows you don't want Kobe taking the last shot lol

 

 

This one helps Kobe a little more

 

http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM

[crownsy]

I think melo hovers around the bottom of the top Ten. His lack of defense really hurts him.

 

It will be interesting to see if he plays better defense if he gets on a team that plays better interior defense as a whole.

 

That does have something to do with it, some examples being Kobe, Ray allen, and Paul Pierce.

 

Now kobe is the best defender out of all three of them, and was always pretty good, but when he got Gasol, Bynum, and Odom, he was allowed to focus on distributing his energy better.

 

He could save some energy on offense, since he had a low post threat (gasol and to an extent bynum)

 

On defense he could play his man tighter, because he actually had help if the man drove, something he had been missing since Shaq left.

 

The same goes for Pierce and Ray with Perkins and KG behind them.

 

Pierce in particular was always considered a Sive defensively, but with the addition of KG and the emergence of Perk as a dominate defensive center (unfortunately he is still a black hole offensively.) he was allowed to spread the load on offense and focus on defense.

 

During their championship run in 2008, he and posey combined to help limit Lebron and Kobe, respectively. His defense on Kobe during the second half of game 4 might be the best defensive performances i've ever seen out of a SF not named Arrtest/Battier on Kobe.

 

Since then he's actually been an above average defender. Same goes for ray.

 

I guess my point is while i consider Melo a subpar defender right now, when i look behind him and see Nene/Birdman in the paint, I think that has to be taking into effect. Birdman is a high energy guy and a good weakside blocker, but not a good one-on-one guy.

 

It would be intersting to see if on a more balanced defensive team, Melo could pace himself as the above mentioned examples have and become a more complete player.

[lazorbeak]

I think coaching is more to blame than roster as far as 'Melo's lack of defense. Chauncey is a tough defender who can bully smaller point guards, they have guys in the post that can alter shots and keep people out of the lane: all 'Melo should really have to do is shut people down on the wing and they'd have a solid defense. But George Karl coaches that team and he doesn't like that slow tempo, Detroit Pistons/Boston Celtics type of game, so 'Melo hasn't really been put in a position where improving his defense is a priority.

[Tha Black Phenom]

<p><a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5609817" rel="external nofollow">http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5609817</a></p><p> </p><p>

This really gets on my tits. Just another path to make the referees become complete lame-os, and coupled with the badly officiated games, this just spells trouble.</p><p> </p><p>

"even in a civilized tone" is the part that got me the most.</p>

[masterded]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Tha Black Phenom" data-cite="Tha Black Phenom" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="27836" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5609817" rel="external nofollow">http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5609817</a><p> </p><p> This really gets on my tits. Just another path to make the referees become complete lame-os, and coupled with the badly officiated games, this just spells trouble.</p><p> </p><p> "even in a civilized tone" is the part that got me the most.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> So instead of making the refs better they are making it so you just can't question them.</p>

[crownsy]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Tha Black Phenom" data-cite="Tha Black Phenom" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="27836" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5609817" rel="external nofollow">http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5609817</a><p> </p><p> This really gets on my tits. Just another path to make the referees become complete lame-os, and coupled with the badly officiated games, this just spells trouble.</p><p> </p><p> "even in a civilized tone" is the part that got me the most.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> NBA officating is the worst because the Ref's are convinced they are part of the game, not just the officials. a large segement of them (bavetta, salvator crawford, palmer, ect) are convinced the fans payed to see them, leading to such "mines bigger than your's" moments as the following:</p><p> </p><p> </p><div class="ipsEmbeddedVideo"><div><iframe width="200" height="150" src="https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/sDM2eGpf5Hc?feature=oembed" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="" title="Allen Iverson & Larry Brown argue with the NBA referee"></iframe></div></div><p> </p><p> I mean, listen to the explanation for the technical..brought the crowd down?</p><p> </p><p> I mean love AI or hate him, but is there any bigger example of why the ref's are little Mussolini's than this rambaling explanation of why he called the T?</p>

[BHK1978]

Out of the four major North American sports (being NBA, NFL, NHL, and MLB) I would say the refs in the NBA are the worst (granted I do not watch the NHL a lot). They often do not even call fouls on certain players because said players are superstars.

[crownsy]

<p>here's another one. I know it's sheed but common. you tossed the guy for giving you a scary look?</p><p> </p><p>

 

</p><div class="ipsEmbeddedVideo"><div><iframe width="200" height="150" src="https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/in-W5OuCmS4?feature=oembed" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="" title="Funny Rasheed Wallace Ejection"></iframe></div></div>

[Tha Black Phenom]

Out of the four major North American sports (being NBA, NFL, NHL, and MLB) I would say the refs in the NBA are the worst (granted I do not watch the NHL a lot). They often do not even call fouls on certain players because said players are superstars.

 

http://i44.tinypic.com/qzr6tw.gif

 

[matt1986]

Just read the article about the NBA cracking down complaining and really I can't see it being that big of a deal...

 

(I ref games atm here in Australia, albeit it not at a particularily high level, but it still gives you a great appreciation for the game and what it takes to be a ref, how they see it, what they have to deal with, etc...)

 

Players making aggressive gestures, such as air punches, anywhere on the court.

 

A little harsh if it's not directed towards the refs, but I'm sure the players will get used to it quickly.

 

Demonstrative disagreement, such as when a player incredulously raises his hands, or smacks his own arm to demonstrate how he was fouled.

 

Agree with this, I hate it when players direct this towards me... if I'd seen it I would've called it, being an obnoxious smart ass and smacking your arm in front of me only pisses me off...

 

Running directly at an official to complain about a call.

 

Agree to an extent, as long as players can still approach refs I don't think this will really have any effect.

 

Excessive inquiries about a call, even in a civilized tone.

 

A little harsh, but I can understand why this is being implemented. Provided players can still have a discussion with a ref this won't be an issue.

 

I'm sure the players will adapt quickly and the number of T's won't increase dramatically. I think everyone's made a big deal out of nothing... let's wait and see if it really has much of an effect before we start complaining.

 

I watch a fair bit of NBA over here in Australia, anywhere between 4 and 6 games a week... and I've never gotten the impression the refs think they are bigger than the game. I don't know why people think that (other than it sounds like an intelligent point to make; in reality it just simply isn't true - well I can't see any evidence of it from what I've seen.) I think the NBA refs are the best in the world and do an excellent job... they all make mistakes, but for the most part the calls (and non-calls) are usually pretty spot on!

[lazorbeak]

http://i44.tinypic.com/qzr6tw.gif

 

 

LBJ didn't pick up his dribble until he did the jump stop, and then he shot the ball. Doc is just flat out wrong, that is not a travel. It's just a freak athlete making a freak play that looks wrong because it's so far beyond the abilities of 99.99% of human beings.

[crownsy]

LBJ didn't pick up his dribble until he did the jump stop, and then he shot the ball. Doc is just flat out wrong, that is not a travel. It's just a freak athlete making a freak play that looks wrong because it's so far beyond the abilities of 99.99% of human beings.

 

Except that technically, by the way the NBA rule book was called, that is traveling.

 

This is more a problem with the rule and the way it's called by the refs, but for years, the hop step was considered part of a shooting motion (i.e you cant take a jumpshot and land from a dribble without shooting, even though that is technically also two steps)

 

and you only had 2 and a half steps under the old traveling rules

 

so, you would get called for a travel if you did anything but shoot off one foot after a hop step. but some refs would NOT call it that way, leading to much confusion.

 

Lately, (last 5 years) that's been relaxed, and the hop step is clearly not seen as a shooting motion, but two steps and thus not a travel if you immediately make another hop to shoot (as LBJ did here)

 

The problem was that some refs called it tight and some called it loose, which they tacitly fixed this year by amending the rules to 3 steps instead of two and a half for traveling, since most refs were giving 3 anyway. This should cut down on the number of "spirt of the rule vs technical aspect of the rule" debates, which is what the clip is.

 

Technically traveling under the old rules sometimes enforced, not traveling in today's NBA.

[lazorbeak]

Except that technically, by the way the NBA rule book was called, that is traveling.

 

This is more a problem with the rule and the way it's called by the refs, but for years, the hop step was considered part of a shooting motion (i.e you cant take a jumpshot and land from a dribble without shooting, even though that is technically also two steps)

 

and you only had 2 and a half steps under the old traveling rules

 

so, you would get called for a travel if you did anything but shoot off one foot after a hop step. but some refs would NOT call it that way, leading to much confusion.

 

Lately, (last 5 years) that's been relaxed, and the hop step is clearly not seen as a shooting motion, but two steps and thus not a travel if you immediately make another hop to shoot (as LBJ did here)

 

The problem was that some refs called it tight and some called it loose, which they tacitly fixed this year by amending the rules to 3 steps instead of two and a half for traveling, since most refs were giving 3 anyway. This should cut down on the number of "spirt of the rule vs technical aspect of the rule" debates, which is what the clip is.

 

Technically traveling under the old rules sometimes enforced, not traveling in today's NBA.

 

That's still not a travel. He didn't take two steps and then hop. He picked up his dribble and jump stopped. That is a perfectly legal play.

 

Here's the rule: "-A player who lands with one foot first may only pivot using that foot. A progressing player who jumps off one foot on the first step may land with both feet simultaneously for the second step. In this situation, the player may not pivot with either foot and if one or both feet leave the floor the ball must be released before either returns to the floor."

 

It's called a jump stop, and it's part of the rules of the game. A video that shows this in more detail: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dm0k2rqEeJQ

[crownsy]

That's still not a travel. He didn't take two steps and then hop. He picked up his dribble and jump stopped. That is a perfectly legal play.

 

Here's the rule: "-A player who lands with one foot first may only pivot using that foot. A progressing player who jumps off one foot on the first step may land with both feet simultaneously for the second step. In this situation, the player may not pivot with either foot and if one or both feet leave the floor the ball must be released before either returns to the floor."

 

It's called a jump stop, and it's part of the rules of the game. A video that shows this in more detail: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dm0k2rqEeJQ

 

I know what it's called laz, thanks.

 

and the point remains, this was unclear in how it was called. Some ref's were calling that a travel and some weren't. That's one of the reasons they amended the rulebook last year on traveling to be 3 steps.

 

To 80% of the officals in the league, that would have been called correctly as a non-travel, but a minority would have called it traveling until recently.

[lazorbeak]

Well I wouldn't have felt the need to say anything except you said:

 

Except that technically, by the way the NBA rule book was called, that is traveling.

 

But in fact it is clear that it isn't a travel, based on the NBA rule I just quoted. Which is why I quoted it.

 

Yes, maybe some officials still would have gotten it wrong, because, as I said earlier, it was a freak play that he managed to move that far off one jump (with help from Kevin Garnett), but you were saying that technically that's a travel under the rules, when in fact it's not a travel and an official calling it a travel would have been wrong.

[crownsy]

Well I wouldn't have felt the need to say anything except you said:

 

 

 

But in fact it is clear that it isn't a travel, based on the NBA rule I just quoted. Which is why I quoted it.

 

Yes, maybe some officials still would have gotten it wrong, because, as I said earlier, it was a freak play that he managed to move that far off one jump (with help from Kevin Garnett), but you were saying that technically that's a travel under the rules, when in fact it's not a travel and an official calling it a travel would have been wrong.

 

which is what i said...I'm not sure what were debating at this point.

 

I never contended it was a travel, in fact i said at least 3 times it wasen't. All i was saying was that by the rules, or at least the interpretation of said rules by the zebra's, led to confusion on plays like that and that's why the NBA ammended the rules last year, to much whining from the purists, to give three steps and remove all doubt.

[Jaded]

So, all looking forward to tonight's opening games? I've kinda drifted out of touch over the last year or two but am hyped for this... got the free trial of NBA League Pass and will probably end up getting the season long deal although I can see that screwing up sleep cycles pretty badly.

 

Go Celtics tonight!