WWE Championship Tournament Game

[justtxyank]

Rock stuff

 

I'm not bashing the Rock, but I just don't think he was a great champion. We can just agree to disagree.

 

Bret Hart stuff

 

I just disagree with you. Bret Hart got to the top of the WWF in 1992. Let's first tackle your "WCW killed the WWF when Bret was champ" argument. That is true for the end of Bret's WWF career, but really, it's a disingenuous statement. It would be like me saying WCW killed the WWF in the ratings when Steve Austin was working there. It's only true for a small portion of his time.

 

When Bret Hart went to the top of the WWF there was a steroids crisis and a generational shift. The WWF was losing the Hulkamaniacs as wrestling loses fans in every generation shift. Hart went to the top and did good business considering the times. WCW at this time wasn't competing with the WWF at all really. The WWF was still an international brand and Bret Hart helped with their international drawing power. Bret Hart is what kept the WWF alive when they had no creative direction, a steroid crisis, and no Hulk Hogan.

 

It's also unfair to hold against Hart that the WWF got big after he left. You think the Hart/Austin feud that was going to kick in for Austin's Wrestlemania title win wasn't going to do good things for the WWF?

 

Anyway, I'm fine with you disagreeing, but we will definitely disagree.

[lazorbeak]

I just disagree with you. Bret Hart got to the top of the WWF in 1992. Let's first tackle your "WCW killed the WWF when Bret was champ" argument. That is true for the end of Bret's WWF career, but really, it's a disingenuous statement. It would be like me saying WCW killed the WWF in the ratings when Steve Austin was working there. It's only true for a small portion of his time.

 

No, it wouldn't be disingenuous, it would be flat out false. WCW didn't kill WWF when Austin was WWF's champion, ever. In fact it was Austin's title run that first saw WWF take back control of the ratings wars. But when Hart was the man in WWF, the company went from being the top dog to regularly getting beat in the ratings and putting up poor buyrates even by comparison to the competition. I just flat out do not agree that the #1 star shouldn't share in some of that blame.

 

When Bret Hart went to the top of the WWF there was a steroids crisis and a generational shift. The WWF was losing the Hulkamaniacs as wrestling loses fans in every generation shift. Hart went to the top and did good business considering the times. WCW at this time wasn't competing with the WWF at all really. The WWF was still an international brand and Bret Hart helped with their international drawing power. Bret Hart is what kept the WWF alive when they had no creative direction, a steroid crisis, and no Hulk Hogan.

 

Again, that's making excuses for the fact that he just wasn't a hugely successful champion. It's easy to blame "the times," but a guy like Austin as champion single-handedly changed the times. John Cena, love him or hate him, pulled up buyrates and ratings are regularly higher when he's healthy and on TV. A great champion is going to draw money no matter the times.

 

It's also unfair to hold against Hart that the WWF got big after he left. You think the Hart/Austin feud that was going to kick in for Austin's Wrestlemania title win wasn't going to do good things for the WWF?

 

It may be "unfair," but it's undeniably true. And yeah, maybe Hart/Austin might've done big business. If Hart was ever going to do it, he was going to do it as a heel, since as I said, he didn't have the style or look the casual fan wants in a top babyface. But he never did. He never put up the buyrates Austin or Rock or any of those other guys did, even when WCW was showing that it could be done opposite WWF in '96 and '97. And again, unlike Austin, Bret was the guy in WWF during this time, and people didn't pay to see him the way they did for Sting, Hogan, and the rest of WCW.

 

Anyway, I'm fine with you disagreeing, but we will definitely disagree.

 

I'm fine with you disagreeing. But the question is who's the greatest CHAMPION ever (emphasis in original), and as great a wrestler as Hart is, he's a far cry from being the greatest champion ever by any measurable criteria I can think of.

[justtxyank]

No, it wouldn't be disingenuous, it would be flat out false. WCW didn't kill WWF when Austin was WWF's champion, ever. In fact it was Austin's title run that first saw WWF take back control of the ratings wars. But when Hart was the man in WWF, the company went from being the top dog to regularly getting beat in the ratings and putting up poor buyrates even by comparison to the competition. I just flat out do not agree that the #1 star shouldn't share in some of that blame.

 

You misunderstood my analogy and I don't want to revisit it.

 

As for being beat by WCW in the ratings, Bret Hart had ceded the top spot in the company by the time that happened.

 

Again, that's making excuses for the fact that he just wasn't a hugely successful champion. It's easy to blame "the times," but a guy like Austin as champion single-handedly changed the times. John Cena, love him or hate him, pulled up buyrates and ratings are regularly higher when he's healthy and on TV. A great champion is going to draw money no matter the times.

 

And Bret did draw money. Just like Cena doesn't draw like Austin did, it is unfair to ask Bret to draw like Hogan did. It was a down cycle. Only a few people have ever been able to really lift the business in history and I'd argue that's Hogan and Austin.

 

 

And again, unlike Austin, Bret was the guy in WWF during this time, and people didn't pay to see him the way they did for Sting, Hogan, and the rest of WCW.

 

They didn't pay to see Sting, Hogan and the rest of WCW, they paid to watch Hogan and the nWo. That was it. Until that happened the WWF, with Bret Hart at the tope, was beating WCW. Bret did better business than Flair in the WWF after he took the ropes from him. WCW was clear #2 when Bret was on top until the nWo revolution in WCW.

 

I'm fine with you disagreeing. But the question is who's the greatest CHAMPION ever (emphasis in original), and as great a wrestler as Hart is, he's a far cry from being the greatest champion ever by any measurable criteria I can think of.

 

I didn't say he was the greatest ever, I said specifically he was better than the Rock.