Grand Avatar Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 Just ran a show using ELITE who are classified as having a "Stoner Hardcore" product. As would be expected, the majority of the matches were Hardcore, yet I was penalized for these matches being unsuitable for my audience. What hardcore audience doesn't want to see hardcore matches? Hardcore matches are literally required for the product, yet I receive a penalty for using them. Furthermore I booked a: Work The Crowd for the opener. (unsuitable, but it was an opener match that still got the show off strong so I was fine with it) Comedy (unsuitable, yet is a requirement for the product) And a Car Crash main event (once again, unsuitable yet is a requirement for the product) Are these products ever going to get fixed, or will we be left with just a handful of companies that aren't bent on self-sabotaging themselves with confusing products? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBarkavon Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 I had the same problem, which I wrote about, in this very forum earlier in the week. I received no reply, but maybe I can help you. Are you using the "Hardcore" Road Agent tag? Because I do not believe that, despite its name and description, this actually makes your match a hardcore match. Difficult to believe. I'm not certain of this, because, as I stated earlier, no mods or admins responded to my post. Rather, I believe you need to do this: When selecting your match type (for example 1 v 1), so have to search for or create a 1 v 1 match type that is more hardcore to appease your fans. These do not pop up by default and are more difficult to find than in 2016. Why? I don't know. Once you have a 1 v 1 Hardcore or Cage or Last Man Standing or whatever match selected, you can add the match aims as usual. Such as comedy, mayhem, work the crowd, etc. So, why does this Hardcore tag automatically selected for some hardcore products if it doesn't really appease their desire for hardcore? I don't know. To confuse players, I assume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danyp92 Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=545889 check this thread and see what your product is asking you do to. I only given a quick look and maybe the matches you choose have an injury risk level too low, it should be at medium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinStorm Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 I tried a game with GSW, which is "Extreme Hardcore" and has a storyline called "Deathmatch drama," but fans don't like deathmatches. Also matches under 15 minutes are capped, and long matches are penalized. I booked a main event for 18 minutes and it was too long. Product definitions are definitely messed up and contradictory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBarkavon Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 I tried a game with GSW, which is "Extreme Hardcore" and has a storyline called "Deathmatch drama," but fans don't like deathmatches. Also matches under 15 minutes are capped, and long matches are penalized. I booked a main event for 18 minutes and it was too long. Product definitions are definitely messed up and contradictory. Was the match too long for the fans or was it too long for the wrestlers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinStorm Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 Was the match too long for the fans or was it too long for the wrestlers? The fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MainOffender Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 I tried a game with GSW, which is "Extreme Hardcore" and has a storyline called "Deathmatch drama," but fans don't like deathmatches. Also matches under 15 minutes are capped, and long matches are penalized. I booked a main event for 18 minutes and it was too long. Product definitions are definitely messed up and contradictory. Yeah, the consequences on Extreme Hardcore look to be in error. The way it's set up now, all matches need to be 15 minutes or else they're capped or penalized. I assume that's accidental and the match cap for a product like this is meant to be more like 5 minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Ryland Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 I tried a game with GSW, which is "Extreme Hardcore" and has a storyline called "Deathmatch drama," but fans don't like deathmatches. Also matches under 15 minutes are capped, and long matches are penalized. I booked a main event for 18 minutes and it was too long. Product definitions are definitely messed up and contradictory. Kevin, I answered this when you posted it the first time around. In case you didn't see it, I'll repost: As with many people, you're panicking about seeing the words "penalty" and "cap" unnecessarily. Matches being capped at less than 15 minutes does not mean "whatever you do don't book anything below 15 minutes". It means exactly what it says, which is that if you do go below 15 minutes - which you should do, regularly - then there's a limit on how high of a rating they can get. And that's absolutely fine. That's not going to have any effect on the vast majority of matches you book. Do you care if your GSW opener can't get a 90 rating because it's 10 minutes? No, because obviously it wasn't going to get anywhere near that anyway. Most GSW matches, if not all of them, aren't ever going to be MOTY candidates, so whether they're capped or not is completely irrelevant. Matches being penalized for going over 18 minutes means you probably don't want to go over that limit unless you have a good reason, yes, but again - you're GSW, that makes sense. So, you're not limited to 11 - 17 minutes by that product. You've got 1-17 minutes as your range, and can go above that if you really need to. I hope that makes it clear. Again, golden rule of TEW, don't be scared of the word penalty, I can't stress enough that you're not meant to dodge every penalty and you shouldn't be tying yourself in knots trying to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathZone2 Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 The thing is "caps" and "penalties" are illogical and sacrifice realism for gameplay mechanics. There's a lot of nuance that results in match grades, not just length. Psychology and abilities in the ring and the differing spots can make a 30 minute hardcore match work, especially for an audience that want that style of wrestling. Generally hardcore matches can have a lack of psychology, but hardcore fans typically don't want psychology, they want violence. The longer the violence the more they are pleased. And hardocore matches with psychology can be considered all time classics. Hell, Omega/Mox went nearly an hour and people loved that. It seems like nuance is replaced with gamey-ness. And it's very uninspired and disappointing imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dross Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 No matter how you look at it, it makes no sense that everything that is not in a range of three minutes (15-17) should be penalized, even if the penalty isn't "bad". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MainOffender Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 Kevin, I answered this when you posted it the first time around. In case you didn't see it, I'll repost: Unless you've tweaked the range since I did some tests on this (admittedly way back in Beta #3), then the lengthy match penalty actually kicks in at minute 16. Effectively, this creates a product where fans are expecting all matches to be 15 minutes. That doesn't reflect any hardcore product that exists in reality and feels like needlessly restrictive game design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinStorm Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 <p>I'm not "panicking" about anything, and to be honest I'm a little tired of that generalization being thrown at anyone that criticizes penalties or caps. I'm pointing out what I would think would be an obvious contradiction in a product that both caps matches that are too short and penalizes matches that are too long, where "too long" apparently means no more than 4 minutes longer than "too short" (the match was booked for 18 minutes, not over 18 minutes, just to be clear).</p><p> </p><p> I agree that no one would be buying a ticket to GSW to see a 60-minute technical master class. They're buying a ticket to GSW to see guys hit each other with blunt objects and bleed a lot (even though, for some reason, deathmatches are penalized as being too dangerous in what appears to be a deathmatch-oriented company which even has a starting storyline involving deathmatches). That kind of match can only be so good for so long, but that really means that only long matches should be penalized. </p><p> </p><p> Shorter matches should be "naturally" capped by the match type and worker skills, not "artificially" by a game mechanic that says "any match under 15 minutes can't be higher than X". The two mechanisms at the same means that the "sweet spot" to avoid any penalties is 16 minutes at the low end and at most 17 minutes at the high end, which probably means lots of players are going to naturally tend toward booking every match to be 16-17 minutes to avoid caps and penalties. Just look at the thread in General with the person saying they get people over by booking 5v5 matches where all of one team is set to dominate. These kinds of restrictions encourage gamey play styles when the same intention (i.e. deathmatch companies aren't going to book long mat wrestling classics) could be accomplished in a better way.</p><p> </p><p> Also, since we're on the subject of penalties, I rather liked the TEW16 system of not telling the player explicitly what the penalties and bonuses were for a segment or match unless they opt-in by turning on the dirtsheet.</p><p> </p><p> EDIT: Also I must've missed the last time you replied to me bringing this point up. I went back to find the thread and it appears to be gone.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Ryland Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Dross" data-cite="Dross" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="49141" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>No matter how you look at it, it makes no sense that everything that is not in a range of three minutes (15-17) should be penalized, even if the penalty isn't "bad".</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> That's isn't what is happening - matches under 15 minutes <em>aren't</em> getting penalised. The cap only comes into play if the rating was really high, which most matches aren't going to be.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Ryland Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="KevinStorm" data-cite="KevinStorm" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="49141" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'm not "panicking" about anything, and to be honest I'm a little tired of that generalization being thrown at anyone that criticizes penalties or caps. </div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Okay, sorry - that's how the tone of your original post came across to me.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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