Options for slowing down worker decline?

[Ding Dong 3]

First of all, I know in the latest update Adam said there is an alteration to the rate at which workers stats decline once they reach that stage. I don't know whether this was sped up or slowed down, but I'm assuming it was slowed down slightly.

 

I also know there are options in the game to make people decline at a specific age, or be given the attribute to leak stats slower. However I haven't found this attribute has make much difference in the few workers who have had it, and the option to choose a declining age takes some of the random elements away from the game file.

 

Using the example of Cesaro, in my real world sim he started declining in this late 30s, and by age 41 he's practically useless. He had the attribute "Age is Just a Number" attributed to him as well. To be honest, I fail to think of many workers, if any, who are completely broken down by age 41 unless they're juiced up to the eyeballs or they've been through heavy substance abuse, etc. I don't have to tell you Cesaro isn't one of those people and in fact as personal fitness etc. improves as it has done in the modern wrestling business, I think we're routinely going to see workers performing at a high level way into their 40s and even early 50s.

 

I'm sure this has been debated to the high heavens and everyone is sick of hearing about it and I'm just late to the party, but I did try searching the forum on the topic and I couldn't find much, maybe I was just using the incorrect terms. Anyway, the main point I was going to get at is this: would it be possible to introduce an option to have the rate at which workers decline to suit the preferences of an individual player? i.e. slower than the default, default, and faster than the default? This way it would suit different mods, so mods in the past before steroids and high-impact moves you could have a slower decline, then in the 80s and 90s mods a quicker one due to the eras of extreme, strong style and steroids, and in the modern day you could be slower again due to the reduction in drug use and improved physical fitness.

 

I know I used Cesaro as an example but there are many workers in the WWE and AEW who are at the peak of their careers and they are released a short time into the file because the AI detects they are worsening, and within a year or two they struggle to be hired by even the smallest indy promotion and retire. To be clear I have no problem with a worker randomly retiring; that's an entirely separate issue and to me it's perfectly realistic. But workers who have great physical conditioning starting to lose it completely in their late 30s just makes no sense at all to me.

[St. Templar]

Part of this suggestion really piqued my interest:

 

You suggested the issue about eras (basically). I would think this could be something that could be tied to the eras (like TV ratings, rate of production of female workers, width of drug use, etc.).

 

Obviously, in the 1960's, 1970's, guys were not in as good of shape even though their careers might last forever due to diet, exercise, the prevalence and popularity of smoking and drinking (as an everyday salve to injury). These might affect performance stats, but there was also the value of toughness, particularly in America and Canada, so guys were judged more on how tough they appeared to be rather than how attractive they were. In the 1980's, the growth of cocaine and heroin use (and the growth of crack) would cause guys to have higher drug use in general but also the aftereffects of that use causing a steep decline. In the 1990's, that decline would probably shallow out a bit but would still exist.

 

Into the 2000's, where we really see the growth of guys who take diet and exercise super-seriously (not just in pro wrestling but in legitimate sport as well), so the decline would be much shallower than earlier eras.

 

I don't know how to simulate all of that, but I do think a capability to lessen the effects of "time decline" would be a super addition to future editions of this game.

 

St.T

[thadian]

The best you can do, is set their stats outside the editor to not enter decline until 42-45 for some guys like Cesaro - and for guys like Jericho, to have both at the same time - time decline and relevant until 52 (he won't keep it up forever) and the attribute that makes you decline faster. Ric Flair gets this until 55. Terry Funk gets it until he dies of age, even if he never wrestles in the real world again. But these are very few exceptions. I might have Flair break down at 53 but slower. I might have Hogan break down at 55 but faster. Undertaker would have 53 before decline, but would have his back, head, and knees at about 50-70% condition which will hamper his matches and reflect his late-stage career.

 

Body Condition is important. If you have a Ric Flair on your roster, you might want to ensure their body condition is low if their skills are high and decline is low; and you want to ensure their body condition is 100% if their decline rate is faster and their skills aren't top notch. This will both allow guys like Jericho to put on world class matches when he's 50 but still have an exit when it's time - and to allow guys like Undertaker to not put on world class matches unless he's well protected (such as the Boneyard match and working with AJ Styles) while declining at about the same age as Jericho, due to the final balance between their condition/decline/skills at time of decline/attribute that makes decline slower or faster. If that makes sense.

 

So, this will have a few effects:

1. They won't break down until you want them to.

2. They will break down at a faster rate to ensure their retirements when it's appropriate.

3. Their match rate - hampered (or not) by Body Condition, Skills when the game starts, and set decline - will still permit you to have the quality of worker you want, until you - or the game itself, decides otherwise.

[Ding Dong 3]

Part of this suggestion really piqued my interest:

 

You suggested the issue about eras (basically). I would think this could be something that could be tied to the eras (like TV ratings, rate of production of female workers, width of drug use, etc.).

 

Obviously, in the 1960's, 1970's, guys were not in as good of shape even though their careers might last forever due to diet, exercise, the prevalence and popularity of smoking and drinking (as an everyday salve to injury). These might affect performance stats, but there was also the value of toughness, particularly in America and Canada, so guys were judged more on how tough they appeared to be rather than how attractive they were. In the 1980's, the growth of cocaine and heroin use (and the growth of crack) would cause guys to have higher drug use in general but also the aftereffects of that use causing a steep decline. In the 1990's, that decline would probably shallow out a bit but would still exist.

 

Into the 2000's, where we really see the growth of guys who take diet and exercise super-seriously (not just in pro wrestling but in legitimate sport as well), so the decline would be much shallower than earlier eras.

 

I don't know how to simulate all of that, but I do think a capability to lessen the effects of "time decline" would be a super addition to future editions of this game.

 

St.T

 

Some of this you could fairly easily replicate I think. Expanding on the idea in general, you could tie the rate of decline of physical stats to certain attributes like the willingness to take risky bumps and steroid use and equally greatly lessen the effects by giving them the attributes relating to being a fitness fanatic etc. It's just frustrating that you can have someone like say, Cody, who keeps himself in great shape and doesn't take huge risks in the ring, be able to essentially have his career be over by age 41/42. Again the game doesn't know this, but the number of workers in general who are a physical wreck by age 42 is very low unless you're a death match worker who has no regard for their well-being or something.

 

Again, for the record I have no problems with injuries curtailing careers, or workers deciding to leave the business for other reasons. But the idea of Vince walking up to Seth Rollins backstage and saying "Hey Seth, I'm really sorry, but over this last year I've noticed you've really started to suck and you just can't go anymore, I'm going to have to let you go" when he's only 41 or whatever just clearly isn't realistic.

[LloydCross]

I've been noticing that skills don't decrease nearly as fast as they did in 2016. The time decline penalty itself can really kill workers who don't have great performance skills, but if their performance skills are strong (especially psychology) they can keep performing pretty well for a long time.

[Ding Dong 3]

The best you can do, is set their stats outside the editor to not enter decline until 42-45 for some guys like Cesaro - and for guys like Jericho, to have both at the same time - time decline and relevant until 52 (he won't keep it up forever) and the attribute that makes you decline faster. Ric Flair gets this until 55. Terry Funk gets it until he dies of age, even if he never wrestles in the real world again. But these are very few exceptions. I might have Flair break down at 53 but slower. I might have Hogan break down at 55 but faster. Undertaker would have 53 before decline, but would have his back, head, and knees at about 50-70% condition which will hamper his matches and reflect his late-stage career.

 

Body Condition is important. If you have a Ric Flair on your roster, you might want to ensure their body condition is low if their skills are high and decline is low; and you want to ensure their body condition is 100% if their decline rate is faster and their skills aren't top notch. This will both allow guys like Jericho to put on world class matches when he's 50 but still have an exit when it's time - and to allow guys like Undertaker to not put on world class matches unless he's well protected (such as the Boneyard match and working with AJ Styles) while declining at about the same age as Jericho, due to the final balance between their condition/decline/skills at time of decline/attribute that makes decline slower or faster. If that makes sense.

 

So, this will have a few effects:

1. They won't break down until you want them to.

2. They will break down at a faster rate to ensure their retirements when it's appropriate.

3. Their match rate - hampered (or not) by Body Condition, Skills when the game starts, and set decline - will still permit you to have the quality of worker you want, until you - or the game itself, decides otherwise.

 

Yes but the problem remains, if you set Cesaro or Jericho to decline at age 45, he'd be useless within a couple of years. I just think the rate in general is too fast. For anyone to hit the wall at 39, or in some cases even earlier, and be useless to the big employers within a couple of years is just overall unrealistic.

 

Christopher Daniels is a great example. His career has slowed greatly, and he can't go to the degree he once could, but when he does choose to wrestle he can still put on a great match. In fact he could still wrestle great matches, albeit sparingly, for years into the future if he chose to. But whereas in real life he's clearly entered his decline phase, in TEW terms he'd already be useless as the decline in skills is just too fast.

 

AI owners are also very harsh on this. Even if a worker has entered the first month of his decline and his contract comes up, they are often let go. As I mentioned earlier, this leads to big name workers not being picked up by anything other than smaller promotions, and within a year or two their careers are over. How often does this happen in reality?

 

I think my main issue is just the rate of decline is too fast overall, which is why I suggested an option to slow as some people may like it the way it is, but for me as soon as I see a worker hit 38 I start to worry that next month they'll start to go downhill and before you know if they'll be suffering in the ring. The option is there to individually edit workers to decline at different rates, but maybe this could be an in-game editor option? Or maybe a "pause decline" option? In a real world scenario there are just too many workers to go through and edit individual decline dates, and as I said previously this takes some of the randomness away. That may sound contradictory but as I mentioned I don't have a problem with declining workers in so much as the rate at which they decline and how quickly a worker goes from world class to "meh".

[Peter.1986]

Doesn’t his body shape change? There is also an attribute that makes them stay in shape.

 

It’s definitely a subject I’ve thought happened too quick in the past TEWs, but what you need to remember is this is a workers peak.

 

Setting someone to peak at 55 means they are going to be improving until 55 which is ridiculous for someone like ric flair who is going to be already high in stats.

 

Physically workers start to slow down A before you notice and B before they lose popularity.

 

For example, stone cold for example peaked 97/98/99. But people tend to think because he was still well over that he peaked sometime after 00’

 

His popularity and other attributes carried him through the rest.

 

If you look at the undertaker, his physical attributes and selling are way off what they were in the 00’s - 10’s

 

I think it works really well as it is. The good wrestlers with good skills will continue to put on good matches in decline because of their other skills.

[Peter.1986]

Some of this you could fairly easily replicate I think. Expanding on the idea in general, you could tie the rate of decline of physical stats to certain attributes like the willingness to take risky bumps and steroid use and equally greatly lessen the effects by giving them the attributes relating to being a fitness fanatic etc. It's just frustrating that you can have someone like say, Cody, who keeps himself in great shape and doesn't take huge risks in the ring, be able to essentially have his career be over by age 41/42. Again the game doesn't know this, but the number of workers in general who are a physical wreck by age 42 is very low unless you're a death match worker who has no regard for their well-being or something.

 

Again, for the record I have no problems with injuries curtailing careers, or workers deciding to leave the business for other reasons. But the idea of Vince walking up to Seth Rollins backstage and saying "Hey Seth, I'm really sorry, but over this last year I've noticed you've really started to suck and you just can't go anymore, I'm going to have to let you go" when he's only 41 or whatever just clearly isn't realistic.

 

The peak decline is ‘naturally’ when a worker starts to decline

 

Someone banged up from doing death matches is physical health

 

They are different. Doing death matches should not effect natural decline

[Ding Dong 3]

Doesn’t his body shape change? There is also an attribute that makes them stay in shape.

 

It’s definitely a subject I’ve thought happened too quick in the past TEWs, but what you need to remember is this is a workers peak.

 

Setting someone to peak at 55 means they are going to be improving until 55 which is ridiculous for someone like ric flair who is going to be already high in stats.

 

Physically workers start to slow down A before you notice and B before they lose popularity.

 

For example, stone cold for example peaked 97/98/99. But people tend to think because he was still well over that he peaked sometime after 00’

 

His popularity and other attributes carried him through the rest.

 

If you look at the undertaker, his physical attributes and selling are way off what they were in the 00’s - 10’s

 

I think it works really well as it is. The good wrestlers with good skills will continue to put on good matches in decline because of their other skills.

 

Yes, but Austin suffered numerous injuries which shortened his career dramatically. As I said, I have no problem with injuries curtailing careers, that's perfectly realistic. Undertaker is 55, I have no problem with a worker age 55 to be broken down physically as he is IRL. And I have no problem with *any* worker being far worse at that age than they were at 38. That's perfectly fine.

 

In fact I'd argue maybe my problem isn't with decline in general, but the rate at which certain stats decline vs. others and how someone with world-class fitness can drop so substantially in the course of two or three years in their late 30s. I understand this is just a part of the game and you can't really emulate it entirely, but an overweight worker with poor physical stats who doesn't decline until age 44 randomly could be in the same physical condition as someone who had amazing physical stats but began declining at age 38. I know workers decline, and that's realistic, but to me I just don't think any worker is fighting against father time to that degree at such a relatively young age, injuries or wrestling style notwithstanding.

[Blake Trask]

First of all, I know in the latest update Adam said there is an alteration to the rate at which workers stats decline once they reach that stage. I don't know whether this was sped up or slowed down, but I'm assuming it was slowed down slightly.

 

For the record, this was referring only to physical health, not time decline/stats, and the rate of physical health dropping was increased.

[Ding Dong 3]

For the record, this was referring only to physical health, not time decline/stats, and the rate of physical health dropping was increased.

 

Ah, I see. I misunderstood that then. In reference to that, why isn't body condition tied directly to the physical stats? If I could see someone's body degrading and it was directly tied to athleticism, stamina, power and resilience that would make more sense. But in theory these workers who have declining stats in those departments could have a body in perfect physical condition, which seems like a big contradiction to me.

[Peter.1986]

Ah, I see. I misunderstood that then. In reference to that, why isn't body condition tied directly to the physical stats? If I could see someone's body degrading and it was directly tied to athleticism, stamina, power and resilience that would make more sense. But in theory these workers who have declining stats in those departments could have a body in perfect physical condition, which seems like a big contradiction to me.

 

It is and it isn't.

 

The attributes and time decline are a persons natural decline. EG if you were 100 in all physical attribute. If it is set to 40 they will only start getting penalties/decline at 40.

 

The physical decline is something on top e.g. how banged up your body is. This is layered on top. Someone could go to 20 and be pretty baqnged up getting penalties but not hav ehit their 'natural peak'

 

Austin as an example earlier, i would say his peak was around 1999 naturally. in terms of tew his physical health would have already started to impact his performance (his knee and then his neck injury) but his natural physical attributes (stamina etc) would not decline until 99.

 

i think its done correctly. people can still be learning while banged up (especially if they have bad injuries early one) but people can also hit their natural peak before their health starts taking a toll.

 

important to remember the difference. Ability v Health.

[Ding Dong 3]

It is and it isn't.

 

The attributes and time decline are a persons natural decline. EG if you were 100 in all physical attribute. If it is set to 40 they will only start getting penalties/decline at 40.

 

The physical decline is something on top e.g. how banged up your body is. This is layered on top. Someone could go to 20 and be pretty baqnged up getting penalties but not hav ehit their 'natural peak'

 

Austin as an example earlier, i would say his peak was around 1999 naturally. in terms of tew his physical health would have already started to impact his performance (his knee and then his neck injury) but his natural physical attributes (stamina etc) would not decline until 99.

 

i think its done correctly. people can still be learning while banged up (especially if they have bad injuries early one) but people can also hit their natural peak before their health starts taking a toll.

 

important to remember the difference. Ability v Health.

 

I understand this, but how can you have 90 athleticism if you have banged up legs? If a worker "bulks up" and becomes more muscular, their look and menace improve. Is there a reason why body condition can't be directly tied to the physical stats? I assume at this point it's impossible to write into the game but to me it just makes sense.

[sheik7]

I always thought mods of different eras need different setting of aging.

 

Especially in territory era, So many famous wrestlers were at their 'peak' in 40s.

 

Perhaps it is best if we can slow down declining speed when we play mods of not-so high paced wrestling era.

[Teh_Showtime]

I understand this, but how can you have 90 athleticism if you have banged up legs? If a worker "bulks up" and becomes more muscular, their look and menace improve. Is there a reason why body condition can't be directly tied to the physical stats? I assume at this point it's impossible to write into the game but to me it just makes sense.

 

I actually think you could tie each physical stat to a body part that might decrease the stat for being injured.

 

Legs- Athleticism

Arms- Power

Head- Toughness

Body- Resilience