Light Tubes matches should NOT have high injury risk

[dnmt]

This makes booking death match promotions very hard. Light tube death matches are deceptively safe. The wounds are all superficial and the guys who have done the most (Ryuji Ito, Abdullah Kobayashi, Jun Kasai) have been doing them for 20+ years, at least once a month at the least, with no long term injuries as a result (just insane scars). Content risk I understand, but there is only a slightly increased injury risk for a light tube match in comparison to a standard match. Lowering it to low or average (higher than a normal match) is much more realistic.

 

I hope this can be taken into consideration and changed as light tubes are all smoke and mirrors and used by smaller death match promotions to look dangerous but their history in pro-wrestling shows they are not.

[Dave E Mac]

To be fair dude if you are talking about guys having scars but trying to say the injuries are superficial I’m not sure I can totally agree. Any time of match that is leaving you permanently scarred I wouldn’t say is low risk. Maybe the chance of falling off a ladder onto your head isn’t there. But cutting yourself to shreds is a risk.

 

Couldn’t you create your own version of the match with a much lower risk level if that’s your feelings on it? I’ve not tried creating my own matches yet so can’t pass comment on it.

[codey_v2]

You're totally free to change the risk level of a match. An easy way you can do it is to just clone the match, rename it, and lower the risk level.

[Teh_Showtime]

You're totally free to change the risk level of a match. An easy way you can do it is to just clone the match, rename it, and lower the risk level.

 

Some items in a match like fire and I assume light tubes, are forced to have a minimum content/injury risk unfortunately.

[thadian]

I think Cage, Ladder and Tables should ALL be able to run a "Low Injury Risk".

 

As for Light Tubes, at least "Average".

[thadian]

Content Risk ONLY matters when a product/fanbase loves or hates "High Risk" content, in which High and Very High Content Risk will come into play.

 

I have never seen "Average" content come into play, but I assume it would apply for a broadcaster with "Very Low" risk levels basically only allowing standard and comedy matches.

[dnmt]

To be fair dude if you are talking about guys having scars but trying to say the injuries are superficial I’m not sure I can totally agree. Any time of match that is leaving you permanently scarred I wouldn’t say is low risk. Maybe the chance of falling off a ladder onto your head isn’t there. But cutting yourself to shreds is a risk.

 

Couldn’t you create your own version of the match with a much lower risk level if that’s your feelings on it? I’ve not tried creating my own matches yet so can’t pass comment on it.

 

A cut on your back is not an "injury" as the game defines them (something that prevents a wrestler from working or hampers their performance). In the last 5+ years of death matches that I can recall, there's only been one real bad injury and it was from a guy taking a bump on a SCISSORS BOARD. He's back 6 months later and doing light tubes death matches literally every time he wrestles. Like I said, the guys most famous for light tubes death matches have been doing them on a very regular basis, with no major injury, for 20+ years. Unfortunately, the game mechanic in this case does not line up with reality.

 

And no, if you check off "light tubes" it defaults to very high injury risk, which is why I am asking for the change in the first place.

[dnmt]

Apologies for posting in the wrong forum, forgot we have a suggestions one.

[daddytorgo1]

Yeah, I'd like to see this opened up. At the very least it shouldn't default to any risk level, so that we can customize it based on our own data. Otherwise it's restrictive for no real good reason.

[SirMichaelJordan]

I’ve been saying match injury risk should be tied to how much money you invest in quality of props and structures. Low risk = top quality props/structures, high risk = a legit table from the 99 cent store lol.

[Turkeyninja]

Light tube matches are very dangerous. I don't know if anyone else has experience with light tubes but I do. I once ran my forklift into an overhead lighting console that has lighttubes in it, I didn't know it was there until I heard a crash and looked up...just in time for glass to rain down on my face and cut up my cheeks. Good thing I was wearing my safety glasses.

 

Light tubes being dangerous is fine to me.

[Questlove]

Light tube matches are very dangerous. I don't know if anyone else has experience with light tubes but I do. I once ran my forklift into an overhead lighting console that has lighttubes in it, I didn't know it was there until I heard a crash and looked up...just in time for glass to rain down on my face and cut up my cheeks. Good thing I was wearing my safety glasses.

 

Light tubes being dangerous is fine to me.

 

If it's that dangerous, dozens of workers wouldn't have been doing light tube deathmatches for 20+ years without major issue. Try that in TEW and they'd probably die.

[Turkeyninja]

If it's that dangerous, dozens of workers wouldn't have been doing light tube deathmatches for 20+ years without major issue. Try that in TEW and they'd probably die.

 

Here's how I see it; my experience was TWO light tubes, and each worker takes a minimum of twenty tubes per match. Each. My cuts were minor but that was TWO light tubes, I can imagine getting hit over and over and over. Plus while I get your point, I will point out that Sabu tore open his bicep and while he champed it out, there are still barbed wire matches to this day. Something in wrestling being dangerous doesn't mean it won't be used, actually the contrary.

[The Swanton825]

Light tubes are absolutely dangerous, the game just isn't designed to properly represent the injuries accrued by them. You won't break bones, but Ryuji Ito once has a shard embedded so far in his back that he had to seek medical attention and multiple wrestlers have had arteries sliced by hitting the wrong way, not to mention the mercury you breathe in when one shatters. When Tommy Dreamer refuses to take something, it's dangerous. The reason they can do these matches fairly often is because there are EMTs backstage to pick out most of the shards and staunch the bleeding. The danger is still very present and most deathmatch workers are wrestling hurt. Nobody admits it because then they risk fewer people showing up because they realize it's not a show, but a display of masochism.

[thadian]

<p>But just because there's light tubes - there's using a ring surrounded in fire the way they did in Japan in FMW, and the way they did with Kane vs Undertaker on RAW in the 1990s, both times.</p><p> </p><p>

A ladder match could well be more like Shawn-Bret 1 and less like Modern TLC. The match aims for Wild Brawl, Mayhem, and Car Crash already increases injury and fatigue, the weapon "high risk" just gives a double whammy. </p><p> </p><p>

So I think at minimum, Ladders should allow Low Injury Risk.</p><p> </p><p>

I also wonder if, when using Weapon Gimmicks, perhaps the fans reaction levels should be dependent on the risks - Chekov's Gun. You have a Ladder Match and only use it for 1-2 spots? Fans are disappointed, "very low risk" might not increase match ratings very much. Likewise, "average risk" would give the full standard bonus, and increasing the risk would increase further bonuses.</p><p> </p><p>

This could apply for both Injury and Content Risk; the amount you use will determine the amount of bonus-penalty interactions. A "low risk" ladder match wouldn't have a penalty - it might be the best your network will let you do on Monday Nitro, so it would give a small bonus. It would be better than "very low" risk one, that's for sure. But that would allow a "Fun Time" wrestling promotion to access that match. A very tiny bonus, nobody's hurt or upset. They might irish whip someone into the ladder during a power ranger type of dance, maybe one body slam onto a ladder or ladder ram to the mid section.</p><p> </p><p>

My real concern about it, is accessibility of promotions/networks. Once in a while, a ladder or cage match is fun, and it shouldn't guarantee the injury of the workers.</p><p> </p><p>

And the 1.17 update "feels" to me like it increased rate of injuries with the "Steal the Show" match aim, maybe it's just me. Sure feels that way.</p><p> </p><p>

Every type could have it's standard as the break even point, with less risk giving less bonus and more risk increasing it.</p><p> </p><p>

Light Tubes "Low Injury Risk", "Average Content Risk" might imply minimal use of the weapons, so very small bonus to the show (and less likely than normal to upset the network - they will understand this is just a few controlled light tube whacks and not a Mad Man Pondo match).</p>

[d12345]

<p>Well trying to say a light tube match is no more dangerous than a standard match is a bit ridiculous. Seeing as a light tube match is a standard match + the added danger of light tubes...</p><p> </p><p>

That's the only flaw in your argument. The rest is sound.</p>

[dnmt]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="d12345" data-cite="d12345" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="51324" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Well trying to say a light tube match is no more dangerous than a standard match is a bit ridiculous. Seeing as a light tube match is a standard match + the added danger of light tubes...<p> </p><p> That's the only flaw in your argument. The rest is sound.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I should have clarified. I mean a standard Japanese-style main event with head drops and everything. That is just about as dangerous when it comes to injury risk as a light tube.</p><p> </p><p> I am fine admitting light tubes cause <em>some</em> form of injury, but I don't know if the game engine parses this out. Cuts and lacerations that can cause a few days harm is fine, but a universal injury risk is extreme.</p>

[thadian]

Also, like I said - is this a match where they build a story around someone using a light tube for "the big shot" that ends the match? Or is this one of those crazy FMW matches with Terry Funk? There's a difference between how WWE booked Inferno match with Kane vs Undertaker and how FMW booked them.

 

Same with Barbed Wire - WWE's very few barbed wire experiences were nothing like Japan or ECW. This had two effects:

 

1. "Very Low Risk" with Barbed Wire, Fire, and other arrangements.

 

2. Fans feeling both less amped up (and less upset) by the content.

 

3. Fans feeling like they saw a watered down nerf gun version.

 

So, I believe each weapon's "Base Risk" should be the 0 point of full benefit interaction of the bonus (and penalty, in cases where that happens). And less Content Risk/Injury Risk causes less bonus/penalty interaction and more Content/Injury risk causes more bonus/penalty interaction.

 

So, even though Cage is only "Low" risk, booking a "High Injury Risk" content match would be the difference between the Magnum TA bloodbath and maybe that calm Hogan vs Bundy cage match.

 

In the real world, when a weapon or gimmick is promised, that itself gives fans an expectation. Chekov's Gun rule reminds that if there's a barbed wire baseball bat on a pole, and nobody uses it, the fans will be upset. If there's a ladder and it's only used to climb for the briefcase after a standard wrestling match, fans won't feel like they saw the Ladder Match they were expecting.

 

I don't advocate mass penalty dumping people for not going "High Injury Risk" on everything, but I do believe the lower the Content and Injury risk - both equally important - the lower the gains/penalties. TNT will let you have a Low Risk Ladder Match but they probably wouldn't let you have a full blown modern style Ladder Match. So tuning it down appeases the network, but doesn't give fans the full experience. So you get a small bump but not the big one you hoped for.

[dnmt]

Also, like I said - is this a match where they build a story around someone using a light tube for "the big shot" that ends the match? Or is this one of those crazy FMW matches with Terry Funk? There's a difference between how WWE booked Inferno match with Kane vs Undertaker and how FMW booked them.

 

Same with Barbed Wire - WWE's very few barbed wire experiences were nothing like Japan or ECW. This had two effects:

 

1. "Very Low Risk" with Barbed Wire, Fire, and other arrangements.

 

2. Fans feeling both less amped up (and less upset) by the content.

 

3. Fans feeling like they saw a watered down nerf gun version.

 

So, I believe each weapon's "Base Risk" should be the 0 point of full benefit interaction of the bonus (and penalty, in cases where that happens). And less Content Risk/Injury Risk causes less bonus/penalty interaction and more Content/Injury risk causes more bonus/penalty interaction.

 

So, even though Cage is only "Low" risk, booking a "High Injury Risk" content match would be the difference between the Magnum TA bloodbath and maybe that calm Hogan vs Bundy cage match.

 

In the real world, when a weapon or gimmick is promised, that itself gives fans an expectation. Chekov's Gun rule reminds that if there's a barbed wire baseball bat on a pole, and nobody uses it, the fans will be upset. If there's a ladder and it's only used to climb for the briefcase after a standard wrestling match, fans won't feel like they saw the Ladder Match they were expecting.

 

I don't advocate mass penalty dumping people for not going "High Injury Risk" on everything, but I do believe the lower the Content and Injury risk - both equally important - the lower the gains/penalties. TNT will let you have a Low Risk Ladder Match but they probably wouldn't let you have a full blown modern style Ladder Match. So tuning it down appeases the network, but doesn't give fans the full experience. So you get a small bump but not the big one you hoped for.

 

In BJW's case, light tubes are a mere afterthought. They usually have 300 Light Tube Death Matches. They just had a 567 Light Tube Death Match. Guys take huge bundles and break them over their own heads to show fighting spirit. They smash huge bundles on the mat and then chain wrestle on top. They are treated like a minor inconvenience at best.

[d12345]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="dean" data-cite="dean" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="51324" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I should have clarified. I mean a standard Japanese-style main event with head drops and everything. That is just about as dangerous when it comes to injury risk as a light tube.<p> </p><p> I am fine admitting light tubes cause <em>some</em> form of injury, but I don't know if the game engine parses this out. Cuts and lacerations that can cause a few days harm is fine, but a universal injury risk is extreme.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Copy but then you should compare apples to apples when considering this. If that standard Japanese style main event with head drops and top rope Burning Hammers ALSO had light tubes involved there would be an increased risk of injury.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="51324" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Also, like I said - is this a match where they build a story around someone using a light tube for "the big shot" that ends the match? Or is this one of those crazy FMW matches with Terry Funk? There's a difference between how WWE booked Inferno match with Kane vs Undertaker and how FMW booked them.<p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> The game corrects for this via product settings. If you were doing a light tube match with FMW's product you would have the increased risk of injury from the match PLUS the increased risk of injury from the promotion's style.</p><p> </p><p> Same goes for WWE barbed wire. You have a lessened risk of injury from the Sports Entertainment style, but an increased risk because now the match has barbed wire. I mean Mankind lost his ear in a WCW barbed wire match. WCW's style in the early 90s was as safe as they come. </p><p> </p><p> The point is that the risk of injury is increased beyond the promotion's usual risk of injury.</p>

[StayRudeStayRebel]

I mean Mankind lost his ear in a WCW barbed wire match.

 

He did not. It was a regular match, he was just doing a hangman spot on regular ropes, well except they weren't regular, they were a different kind of cable as usual and tightened more then usual. But it was definitely not a barbed wire match, it was not just a regular match, but you could even argue it was a lesser then a normal match as it was a house show and not on TV.

[dnmt]

Copy but then you should compare apples to apples when considering this. If that standard Japanese style main event with head drops and top rope Burning Hammers ALSO had light tubes involved there would be an increased risk of injury.

 

 

 

The game corrects for this via product settings. If you were doing a light tube match with FMW's product you would have the increased risk of injury from the match PLUS the increased risk of injury from the promotion's style.

 

Same goes for WWE barbed wire. You have a lessened risk of injury from the Sports Entertainment style, but an increased risk because now the match has barbed wire. I mean Mankind lost his ear in a WCW barbed wire match. WCW's style in the early 90s was as safe as they come.

 

The point is that the risk of injury is increased beyond the promotion's usual risk of injury.

 

Yes but you are missing the point of how regular and run-of-the-mill light tubes are for the death match promotions. If they were consistently the highest injury risk, why would the same guys be engaging in them week after week for two decades? I feel like you are way over-complicating my point.

 

1.) Premise 1: Light tubes in the game are set to a high injury risk by default

2.) Premise 2: This would result in workers that regularly do these matches suffering injuries at a much higher rate

3.) Premise 3: The workers that regularly do these matches in the real world do not suffer injuries at a much higher rate

4.) Conclusion: the high injury risk associated with light tubes does not reflect the real world

[Ghg398]

Light tube matches are very dangerous. I don't know if anyone else has experience with light tubes but I do. I once ran my forklift into an overhead lighting console that has lighttubes in it, I didn't know it was there until I heard a crash and looked up...just in time for glass to rain down on my face and cut up my cheeks. Good thing I was wearing my safety glasses.

 

Light tubes being dangerous is fine to me.

 

the argument here is that light tubes only cause "flesh" wounds like small cuts, and you're story of getting cuts by a light tube are just more examples of why it shouldn't be high risk.

 

Tho Nick Gage did literally die because of a light tubes botch during a match, but you could literally die with anything in a ring.

[d12345]

He did not. It was a regular match, he was just doing a hangman spot on regular ropes, well except they weren't regular, they were a different kind of cable as usual and tightened more then usual. But it was definitely not a barbed wire match, it was not just a regular match, but you could even argue it was a lesser then a normal match as it was a house show and not on TV.

 

Ah yea my bad. That's right!