Review @ Out of Eight

[JaguarUSF]

The Wrestling Spirit 2 review has been posted at Out of Eight PC Game Reviews: [url]http://jaguarusf.blogspot.com/2006/07/wrestling-spirit-2-review.html[/url] Enjoy!

[D. Boons Ghost]

While it's pretty silly to argue reviews, I found that the biggest complaints in the review were not researched as well as they could have been. It is a shame that the reviewer did not check around a bit more. At least one or two of their major complaints that led to the 'tedious charge' may have been eased a bit. :) [QUOTE]All of this is mouse-driven and involves a lot of clicking; each action must be double-clicked, and the result box is in a different part of the screen, so you need to move the mouse twice per turn between the same two places. This gets annoying in 100+ move matches.[/QUOTE] While you do double click a move to take an action, the result box is closed by hitting 'C'. It reduces the amount of mouse movement tremendously. [QUOTE] It sounds simple enough, but the actual matches are pretty monotonous. As an attacker, you just keep clicking on moves, hoping that you land them. Defending seems arbitrary and a game of chance: since all attacks have a percentage of success, it’s just a matter of waiting until you get lucky. Maybe I’m missing something, but clicking avoid, block, and break until you regain control is not strategically deep. [/QUOTE] If you are randomly hitting defense buttons without knowing what each of them does, you are not playing to your character's strengths. When fighting a giant as a lightweight you do not try to break moves; when fighting someone technically superior you do not continually try to block, etc. Then again, if you are fighting against someone with a big momentum advantage, as well as stat superiority, you're pretty much doomed to ride it out. But that's where the strategy comes in, as you must do everything in your power to prevent the opponent from going on rampages; wearing him down, keeping your momentum up, etc. ---------------- I give the review a 4/8. But that's only because he linked to D.O.T.T. ;)

[oldskool]

That actually leads me to yet another question: If you're, say, a Large Heavyweight, and you fight a Giant, what defense should you use? I mean...you should be breaking because you're a Large Heavyweight...but you're fighting a Giant, so would you try to Slip Out because you're smaller than him (even though you aren't really small to begin with)?

[Adam Ryland]

I'd have to agree with DBG, I'm very disappointed with some of the comments. His main gripe was that he was just clicking randomly around with no sense of strategy, but a quick glance at the help files would have shown what he was supposed to be doing :( It's frustrating that the reviewer has potentially put people off buying the game because he wrote off a very strategic part of the game as a very shallow one because of this. [QUOTE]If you're, say, a Large Heavyweight, and you fight a Giant, what defense should you use? I mean...you should be breaking because you're a Large Heavyweight...but you're fighting a Giant, so would you try to Slip Out because you're smaller than him (even though you aren't really small to begin with)?[/QUOTE] It would depend on your stats too. There's no guarantee he is stronger than you, you might simply be able to outpower him.

[Thomnipotent]

Not a good review at all. It's like playing PTO straight out of the box without reading the instructions and giving it a lesser rating than it deserves. :P

[JaguarUSF]

[QUOTE=Adam Ryland]His main gripe was that he was just clicking randomly around with no sense of strategy[/QUOTE] I never once said in the review that I was clicking randomly. I said: "As an attacker, you just keep clicking on moves, hoping that you land them." Isn't this how you play, by clicking on moves? In the conclusion, I state: "the matches just seem devoid of any real strategy and full of clicking and lucky play. I never felt like I was making any difference in any of the matches while I was clicking away, choosing attacking and defending moves that landed according to the hard-coded percentages." These are opinions I have about the game. I felt as though I really had no difference in the outcome of the game. I thought that a review was supposed to provide one person's opinion of the game. It's fine if you don't agree with my assessment of the game, but devaluing my opinion of the game because of things you think I said is not very fair.

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=JaguarUSF]In the conclusion, I state: "the matches just seem devoid of any real strategy and full of clicking and lucky play. I never felt like I was making any difference in any of the matches while I was clicking away, choosing attacking and defending moves that landed according to the hard-coded percentages."[/QUOTE] I'd like to say that in a way, you're absolutely right but in another, you couldn't be more wrong. You see, on the surface, you're right. It's all about clicking and lucky play. But then, when you delve beneath the surface, you see that the way you build your wrestlers skills AND the move selections you make, turn it into more than just "clicking and lucky play". That's what D.Boon was trying to point out in an indirect manner. If you know the 'Break' counter is used primarily by powerful workers and you then choose to boost the power stats on your wrestler, you'll find yourself being far more successful with that counter than if you just raised skills in willy nilly fashion. In this way, the choices you make OUTSIDE the ring take on as much importance as the ones you make inside of it. These counters REDUCE your opponent's chances of landing a move (as the ingame Frequency Guide shows). From my own playing experience, using your best counter can often take as much as 32% off your opponents "tohit roll". So that 35% frequency finisher now has a 3% chance of hitting. It's a lot deeper than you give it credit for, in my view. [QUOTE=JaguarUSF]These are opinions I have about the game. I felt as though I really had no difference in the outcome of the game. I thought that a review was supposed to provide one person's opinion of the game. It's fine if you don't agree with my assessment of the game, but devaluing my opinion of the game because of things you think I said is not very fair.[/QUOTE] No doubt, it is your right to state your opinion. But don't be surprised if folks misconstrue what you meant by what you said. Literally speaking, you're absolutely right, the game has a lot of clicking. But that's the case with many many many PC games of every genre. The part that I disagreed with was the 'lack of strategy' bit, since from my perspective, it's just not true.

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE]I never once said in the review that I was clicking randomly.[/QUOTE] Sorry if I misunderstood you, but this quote from your review... [QUOTE]"[B]the matches just seem devoid of any real strategy [/B]and full of clicking [B]and lucky play[/B]." [/QUOTE] ...seems to me to indicate that you are just randomly picking moves. You said that you didn't have any strategy and considered it all just "lucky play", which seems to be the same thing to me? If you have no strategy then isn't that pretty much the definition of random clicking? I am not trying to devalue your opinion, I'm merely stating that your gripe was that you didn't feel like anything you did had any meaning in the game, and I think a quick read of the help files would have given you a better idea of what strategy to use, thus solving the problem. For example: [QUOTE]Maybe I’m missing something, but clicking avoid, block, and break until you regain control is not strategically deep.[/QUOTE] Simply put, yes, you are missing something. As people on the board will attest, there is a great deal of strategy behind the game, and I simply think it's a shame that you haven't gotten the most out of it, when just a few minutes of reading would probably give you a great deal more confidence that what you're doing does have an impact. Building a defense strategy around your particular worker, and his opponent, is one of the key aspects of the game, but because you haven't read the help files you've reduced it to "let's pick a random counter" in your review. I understand that that's your opinion, but my belief is that it's an opinion made through lack of information, and that's what I was trying to put across.

[Vladamire Dracos]

[QUOTE=JaguarUSF]I never once said in the review that I was clicking randomly. I said: "As an attacker, you just keep clicking on moves, hoping that you land them." Isn't this how you play, by clicking on moves?[QUOTE] There is a difference between "As an attacker, you just keep clicking on moves, hoping that you land them." and taloring your attack based on who you're wrestling. You have to take a very different tact against a Small sized Spot Monkey than you would against a Giant sized Brawler, and you'd handle a Main Event level Small Spot Monkey than you would the same type of wrestler who's an Opener. Also when you're on defense, your size, style, and skills, as well as those of your foes, play a crucial role in which block types will be effective for you. Mysterio won't be breaking a Big Show Bearhug anytime soon, but good luck locking him in it. As for "devaluing my opinion," your opinion appears to have been created from poorly drawn conclusions rather than an understanding of how the game actually works, which is why these people, and now I, have spoken against your review.

[Trashbear]

I wasn't aware that tons of clicking and loads of randomness doomed games. I remember Diablo II doing pretty well despite both of those issues. I think maybe we have a little bias on these boards since we're marks (I mean that in as nice a way as possible and I include myself) so anything with wrestling is automatically worth considering, but with a good read-through of the help files and some investigating within the game itself you may find a bit more depth and strategy than you previously realized, Mr. Jaguar. I was clicking around randomly at first, going for the coolest sounding moves. I found myself losing an awful lot, or barely scraping by at best. By smartly playing the percentages and managing momentum I rarely lose, even to opponents that are more popular and skilled. Of course, there are different strokes for different folks, but if you must dislike a game, we just hope that you dislike it for the right reasons.

[panix04]

[QUOTE=Trashbear]I think maybe we have a little bias on these boards since we're marks.[/QUOTE] I'm not having a go here 'cos i think your post was quite valid but i do slightly dis-agree with your point here. I think it is safe to say we are all wrestling fans. But we are all gamers to and therefore our opinion can be quite objective. For example a lot of people who have played this game have probably played SDvsRAW and lots of people hate it, sure its a wrestling game but a lot of peeps think its flat and 1 dimensional (all though graphically that really isnt the case!) It may be fair to point out that most people who like sims and wrestling would love this game. But again i am a big fan of simulation games and wrestling and back in thae days of the PWSE site there was so much rubbish produced that i wouldn't have even considered playing it was un-real! Having read the review i thought some of the criticism's were slightly wide of the mark, the guy is entitled to his own opinion. But it is pretty obvious that a review is going to be poorly recieved on a forum full of people who all really like the game!

[Trashbear]

Oh, no doubt about games, panix. Bad games are bad games, and wrestling or not, we know bad stuff. I was just saying that I think we all gravitate toward wrestling games and are willing to put up with a little more when it comes to those games. For example, I hated WWE Raw 2 for the Xbox, but I liked the create-an-entrance, so I sort of endured the poor gameplay in order to have fun with the other wrestling aspects. Eh, all of this is pretty much off-topic anyway, but I will say this...we can both agree that WreSpi 2 isn't a bad game. Maybe not the best, but certainly not bad. Peace.

[Ja7482]

I agree that WreSpi 2 is not perfect but as far as the wrestling gameplay goes I think it's the best we have had in quite a while. I also agree that a lot of the recent console wrestling games have been one dimensional, which was not always the case. Unless you want to mod and import from Japan you are out of luck for a good wrestling fix lately on the console side of things. One of the things that might help people get into the game would be a optional in-game tutorial that explains the game while the player is participating. Lots of excessive programming but there are people that have interest in the game, want to jump in right away, who might get discouraged quickly. I am not trying to imply the reviewer got discouraged but something like a tutorial could help new players who might feel frustrated understand some the mechanics of the game and a good tutorial could also be used as a refresher course for experienced players.

[dime]

[QUOTE=Ja7482]One of the things that might help people get into the game would be a optional in-game tutorial that explains the game while the player is participating. Lots of excessive programming but there are people that have interest in the game, want to jump in right away, who might get discouraged quickly. I am not trying to imply the reviewer got discouraged but something like a tutorial could help new players who might feel frustrated understand some the mechanics of the game and a good tutorial could also be used as a refresher course for experienced players.[/QUOTE] This is a great game, but it's not a coincidence that both releases of this game have encountered frustrated users talking poorly about the game or quitting it because they DON'T KNOW HOW TO PLAY IT. Assuming that everyone is going to see a help button on the first screen, click it and read through all of the plain text to understand the game is naive. Even something as crude as an embedded pps (powerpoint show) file would be an improvement. This issue isn't going to go away...for everyone who asks on the board for help and is tersely told to find the help file, there are probably a dozen would-be customers who don't bother and just delete the demo after 15 minutes of unsatisfying play.