T-Zone 2007

[Goldenskillz]

As far as the matches WWE sets up go...does momentum affect how they book. since Genghis Rahn starts with A smthn momentum and he is always fighting (and losing) to Wolf and Tommy Cornell when i start my games but after a few loses he drops back down again.

[Consrvtve]

As a player, if I take WWE and let's say I end up at cult level. I still have what...40 million in the bank so I'm not going out of business anytime soon. Will cult level however keep free agents from signing with me or keep my bigger name guys from re-signing with me?

[D16NJD16]

[QUOTE=Steam☆Odin;191151]Judging by the product WWE gives us... maybe they should fall to cult level...[/QUOTE] Yeah, but in real life things move much more slower, forward progress and backward progress. Especially declining in popularity is such a long and farther fall as seen by WCW which didnt really start declining in numbers for maybe over a year since their stuff was stale.

[Vladamire Dracos]

[QUOTE=jimmy_shakerz;191127]Maybe Adam could answer this. Why everytime the WWE falls to Cult level. Beginning of my game (International Level) USA : 82 CAN : 63 MEX : 46 UK : 54 [b]JAP : 51[/b] 2 Years later (Cult) USA : 63 CAN : 58 MEX : 44 UK : 16 [b]JAP : 60[/b] Sorry for the double post. And Carlito... what was the problem ?[/QUOTE] Looks like the problem is with the Overness of the WWE's wrestlers in Japan. From what you posted, it looks like they're trying to boost their Overness in Japan, but lack the star power and it's hurting the shows. Try running a game with only the US area and I bet they'll stay around the same size.

[forlan]

Where did all this discussion come from, Adam settled it before, people without the data like Shakerz posting irrelevant info doesn't help.

[jimmy_shakerz]

[QUOTE=forlan;191165]people without the data like Shakerz posting irrelevant info doesn't help.[/QUOTE] I never said I had your data but i think it's a general problem that also might happen with your mod. As for only running shows in the US I was thinking about it too.

[Guest Ransik]

Neither Momentum or Gimmick Rating seem to have any effect on the AI's choice of booking. Viscera almost every time is fighting Cena for the WWE Title at the beginning of test runs but his overness, momentum, gimmcik... none of should make the AI let him anywhere near a Main Event or a WWE Title shot. It just seems to be the way the AI books. In Montreal Aftermath I have no problem running B+ shows with WCW but in test runs I did with the data before playing it myself... in 6 years neither WCW or WWF put on a show anywhere near a B+ the entire time. The AI just doesn't know how to handle it true to life it seems unless it's the way workers are set up on all mods.

[Caninrok]

Uh, How often does WWF\E or the old WCW put on great shows in real life? Especially if we're talking about wrestling on TV right now its often utter crap. I mean real life WWE gives us Rosie vs. Donald and the great Kahli. Real life TNA has shots of their annoucers reading scripts on air. Not to mention Christy Hemme crying about Chyna on a PPV. I mean seriously, why should Tenay and West even have jobs? They're terrible. I might be wrong here but maybe the problem with real life mods not being able to simulate reality as perfectly as we'd like is because reality isn't being run in a very good way. If you made a perfectly accurate mod and then tested it by booking exactly like the WWE or TNA books you'd probably be out of business in no time. TNA in real life has ended several employee's benefits like travel and hotel costs. Maybe that's because the terrible business/booking formula they've been using is hurting them. Also, this is a game after all and its never going to copy real life exactly because the AI personalities are not the same thing as the real life personalities in charge and never could be. That doesn't mean that when you get your mod finished it won't be a great, fun and interesting mod to play. It just means it won't be like watching WWE or TNA television. And frankly, I'm glad for that. If I wanted to see promoters crapping on their fans and making money off it I'd turn on the real thing.

[ACCBiggz]

[QUOTE=Caninrok;191206]Uh, How often does WWF\E or the old WCW put on great shows in real life? Especially if we're talking about wrestling on TV right now its often utter crap. I mean real life WWE gives us Rosie vs. Donald and the great Kahli. I might be wrong here but maybe the problem with real life mods not being able to simulate reality as perfectly as we'd like is because reality isn't being run in a very good way. Also, this is a game after all and its never going to copy real life exactly because the AI personalities are not the same thing as the real life personalities in charge and never could be. That doesn't mean that when you get your mod finished it won't be a great, fun and interesting mod to play. It just means it won't be like watching WWE or TNA television.[/QUOTE] That's not the problem at all though. The problem is in this game with the WWE putting up horrible shows it drops their ratings and everything else drops and WWE ends up at a Cult type level, which is the main focus. WWE isn't going to end up being a cult fed in less than a year. That's all they are trying to fix to keep WWE and other promotions from becoming bankrupt within months into the data, if that happened it would be useless to play. [quote]I mean seriously, why should Tenay and West even have jobs?[/quote] Tenay is one of the best PBP wrestling guys in the business, anyone in the business would tell you this, and plenty of wrestling fans know him as The Professor for his knowledge of the business and that comes across very much in his broadcast... it always has. West could be debated, but I love him, why? His enthusiasum. You gotta love that, it's like he sees a basic clothesline for the first time everytime and it just comes across that way and makes it fun.

[Guest Ransik]

Heck I'd take Don West over Jim Ross. JR doesn't even know who half the wrestlers are half the time... and he doesn't even know the names of any moves after you get past basics or finishers. Confusing all 3 Dudleyz... Jericho with Benoit... Austin with Rock... you name it. Don West is the same as JR only he knows his holds, wrestlers and doesn't spend the entire bout talking in stupid southern cliches. JR may be well respected but he either doesn't know crap about what goes on inside a wrestling ring and only knows the wrester's backgrounds or he's just lost what he once had. I compare the JR of today to the Tony Shivanoe of 1995 WCW. Anyway, back to the scenario. The main problem is that we know the WWE doesn't put on many good shows in real life and it reflects the data... but the game world can't sustain popularity with crappy shows. I bet you if I booked this past week's RAW the only good match I would get out of it is HBK and Edge, and the show would be a total disaster because its the only match that ran over 5 minutes. You know... I think tomorrow I will run this past week's RAW and see what comes out of it. Main line is; the WWE can't stay global in the game because of the constant piss-poor booking and quality of wrestlers and matches they actually have. If Heat remained in T-Zone and it was booked true to life it would get you a D most times and if rarely a C-. For every great performer the WWE has they have 5 that won't last another 2 years in the company. The WWE stays global in real life because of loyal fans... but the game doesn't have loyal fans, therefore it can't take it into consideration. The game sees crappy performers and crappy booking and ranks it accordingly. Take me for instance. I don't watch ECW at all and have only seen half a show since August. With RAW and Smackdown I DVR them, and 9 times out of 10 I can watch those 4 hours and 10 minutes (250 minutes) in less than 90. I watch what's worth watching and nothing more.

[Guest Stevie F'n Swing]

In other news... I've put in a whole day's work on the angles and storylines...and this is what I have completed. Angles added: AB- Black Wedding AB - Limo Kidnapping AB - Vegas Wedding Announcement: Special Ref 1v1 Announcement: Special Ref 2v2 AR – Post Match: You Screwed Me! AT – Barbwire Ambush v1 AT – Post Match: Hardcore Beating 1v1 AT – Post Match: Hardcore Beating 2v2 AT – Worker Thrown off Bridge HY – Thanks For Waking Me Up… HY – Worker to Retire on Talk Show RES - Black Wedding Failed RESP – Challenge Accepted, MY Rules RESP – Worker Cuts Down Rival/Girlfriend SEX – Live Sex Celebration Talk Show: Host Insults Rival v1 Talk Show: Host Insults Rival v2 Talk Show: Host Taunts Rival Destruction v1 Talk Show: Host Taunts Rival Destruction v2 Talk Show: Presentation of Gift v1 Talk Show: Presentation of Gift v2 Storylines added: Waking the Hardcore Legend (based on: Edge vs. Foley) Not to mention the deletion of 300 or so duplicate angles, which is a pain. To give you an idea of what I've done, here's a shot of the plot outline for Edge vs. Foley... [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v653/marchhaire/tzonepreview.jpg[/IMG] Let me know what you think...and any input is welcome.

[Caninrok]

To each their own on the score of announcers we like. You definitely have some points about your JR. I wonder, having never made a mod myself. How much could Owner and Booking skills and preferences be part of the problems? Just curious. Good luck with your mod. I'll definitely give it a whirl when you work it out if for no other reason the amount of work and stress you guys are going through to get it done.

[Johnny Fenoli]

[QUOTE=Ransik;191230]Heck I'd take Don West over Jim Ross. JR doesn't even know who half the wrestlers are half the time... and he doesn't even know the names of any moves after you get past basics or finishers. Confusing all 3 Dudleyz... Jericho with Benoit... Austin with Rock... you name it. Don West is the same as JR only he knows his holds, wrestlers and doesn't spend the entire bout talking in stupid southern cliches. JR may be well respected but he either doesn't know crap about what goes on inside a wrestling ring and only knows the wrester's backgrounds or he's just lost what he once had. I compare the JR of today to the Tony Shivanoe of 1995 WCW. Anyway, back to the scenario. The main problem is that we know the WWE doesn't put on many good shows in real life and it reflects the data... but the game world can't sustain popularity with crappy shows. I bet you if I booked this past week's RAW the only good match I would get out of it is HBK and Edge, and the show would be a total disaster because its the only match that ran over 5 minutes. You know... I think tomorrow I will run this past week's RAW and see what comes out of it. Main line is; the WWE can't stay global in the game because of the constant piss-poor booking and quality of wrestlers and matches they actually have. If Heat remained in T-Zone and it was booked true to life it would get you a D most times and if rarely a C-. For every great performer the WWE has they have 5 that won't last another 2 years in the company. The WWE stays global in real life because of loyal fans... but the game doesn't have loyal fans, therefore it can't take it into consideration. The game sees crappy performers and crappy booking and ranks it accordingly. Take me for instance. I don't watch ECW at all and have only seen half a show since August. With RAW and Smackdown I DVR them, and 9 times out of 10 I can watch those 4 hours and 10 minutes (250 minutes) in less than 90. I watch what's worth watching and nothing more.[/QUOTE] You know I wonder if Adam could do something where once a company reached like global status, it's very very hard for them to fall out of public eye. Like it would take a major catstrophe (sp?)... I mean like WCW, they haven't been around for awhile... but people still know who they are... Their popularity would still be there on some level if it was to return as it's on company. Not what it once was, but the name still carries weight. So maybe if it's possible he put something in that makes it where it takes alot of bad show and loosing money to fall from global, then fall from internatinoal, then national.... then they can't go under cult at all, all they could do then would be go bankrupt. Just an idea, dont know if anyone's said it or not... can't keep up with all these post these days. Later, Johnny "The Origianl Sheik's personal assitant" Fenoli

[djthefunkchris]

I don't get it really. That list of things that Adam suggested seemed to make alot of scense to me (without even seeing the data). The AI saying someone is global doesn't mean, that it means WWE.... International sounded reasonable, because that is still worldwide, and still pretty popular. The only thing I haven't heard of being changed one bit is... what the fans want (in the game). Are there enough places for WWE to hold shows where the fans would like their type of style? I'm sure there is, just kind of thinking out loud. Anyways, who is to say WWE doesn't go down quite a bit in the next year? It could happen. From reading most the posts in here, seems like the people working on WWE doesn't think they are any good stat wise, entertainment wise, or even announcer quality wise, so that would seem reasonable to me that they would shrink in popularity. If they are set up to suck, then they will just suck. Just my thoughts on it. If you think they are really as bad as you whats been said over and over throughout this thread, then why not just go with the flow. There's surely enough people that believe's they suck, and would love a sucky rendition of WWE. The only alternative, unless Adam or someone else can think of anything else, is to just change them to be better then what you believe they are. SO since that's obviously out of the question, I would just let them fall.... Who knows, they might build themselve's back up over time.

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=Johnny Fenoli;191278]So maybe if it's possible he put something in that makes it where it takes alot of bad show and loosing money to fall from global, then fall from internatinoal, then national....[/QUOTE] To summarise, this is the same sort of suggestion as earlier in the thread where someone suggested the rate of decline be much slower so that it takes many years for promotions to fall. I absolutely could do that, and will if there is a great deal of support for it. However, I think people may have forgotten to look at the downside. If you implement that, then you also need to go the other way and make it harder to rise (otherwise you'll simply end up with loads of big promotions). As a ballpark figure, let's say that the WWE absolutely cannot fall out of Global for ten years, as it takes that long for their in-built fan base to erode. Using that figure, you'd have to say that going the opposite direction should be equally hard, so let's slap a minimum 5 year on TNA going up a size. I think most people will already have seen where I'm going with this - if those changes are implemented, the game world is going to be almost static. Most people don't play for more than 5 years (at most) anyway, so that means that most people who play the game won't actually ever see a promotion change size, and won't ever be able to book a promotion to rise in size. I don't know about everyone else, but that sounds like a really, really good way to kill the enjoyment of the game. The rate of change in the game at the moment is faster than reality, that's intentional!

[Gabriel]

Adam, I think that maybe half of what you suggested would be good. Like, a five year decline from Global... a two to three year rise for a promotion. I agree that you need to look at the playability factor, but with promotions moving up and down so easily, it kills the realism factor. I'm not even a year into the game I've been playing, and TNA's above WWE, and WWE is about equal with ROH. It's just weird.

[Anubis]

[QUOTE=Gabriel;191330]Adam, I think that maybe half of what you suggested would be good. Like, a five year decline from Global... a two to three year rise for a promotion. I agree that you need to look at the playability factor, but with promotions moving up and down so easily, it kills the realism factor. I'm not even a year into the game I've been playing, and TNA's above WWE, and WWE is about equal with ROH. It's just weird.[/QUOTE] Not really. Look how fast WCW went from being a small spinoff of NWA to being a Global powerhouse once Eric Bischoff took the reigns. Damn near overnight.

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=Gabriel;191330]I'm not even a year into the game I've been playing, and TNA's above WWE, and WWE is about equal with ROH. It's just weird.[/QUOTE] Which stats are you using? The data with my recommended changes shouldn't end up like that, TNA are too far back to rise that far in that amount of time.

[jbergey_2005]

I am just curious as to how bad the stats are for the WWE wrestlers if they are not able to put on many good matches or shows. Are we certain we are not under cutting a lot of their stats because it seems thats the cool thing to do these days? Talentwise the WWE is very down from where it was 5-6 years ago but they certainly have enough talent to stay afloat.

[wotto29]

[QUOTE=Gabriel;191330]Adam, I think that maybe half of what you suggested would be good. Like, a five year decline from Global... a two to three year rise for a promotion.[/QUOTE] That sounds good to me, very realistic aswell.

[jbergey_2005]

I dont like the idea of changing anything as far as how long it takes to rise or fall. Havent played 07 with DOTT(because its not out yet of course) but on 05 it worked very well with CV and DOTT and really dont want to play 10 years before I can raise the WWF a level in DOTT. Thats a long time. and lots of shows. I guess I dont understand how TNA can be running better shows then the WWE right away unless TNA stats are better then the WWE's. In reality the WWE midcarders would be Main Eventers in the TNA and hopefully the stats are reflective of this.

[Caninrok]

I'll add my voice to the "I don't want to see the rate of change change" side of things. To further stretch the buying power of my two cents I'd like to point out that WWE could certainly fall from grace within a year. Within three years they could be in serious, serious trouble. It looks likely that the ECW brand might not live out the year, and that their PPV buys could continue a serious decline due to lack of quality, over-exposure and the stiff competition from the UFC. If UFC continues to grow this year it will seriously threaten the WWE. There are a lot of crossover fans and they only have so many entertainment dollars to spend. I realize that dynamic doesn't exist in the game but its just one example of the problems that the WWE could face within one year in real life. I also don't think loyal fans are the secret to the WWE in real life. I think a large part of the secret is that for many many people they are the only option for wrestling, especially if they want to see a live show thats above Indy quality.

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=jbergey_2005;191349]I guess I dont understand how TNA can be running better shows then the WWE right away unless TNA stats are better then the WWE's. In reality the WWE midcarders would be Main Eventers in the TNA and hopefully the stats are reflective of this.[/QUOTE] It's interesting you should say this - I logged off before you posted it so didn't see it until now, but I've actually just spent the morning running more tests to see if I could figure out why WWE was struggling compared to TNA, and your point turns out to have been very accurate. What jumped out at me very early was the respective main events (which as both feds are entertainment based are very important). Now, Raw was being headlined regularly by RKO vs DX in various forms, and was getting a B- at best. TNA was headlined by combinations of Sting, Joe, Abyss and Jarrett and was getting B+s. What I discovered when checking the actual stats given, was that the four TNA guys in that example are actually better brawlers than the WWE guys. Now, I'm not going to start a whole WWE vs TNA debate, but what I will say is that I'm fairly neutral on this subject, as I'm not particularly interested in either promotion, and neither particularly like or dislike any of the eight people mentioned. I have seen them all enough to comment though. Before continuing, I do want to clarify that the Brawling stat is about how well they put on brawl-based matches, not their actual brawling ability, and that I would consider the average WWE\TNA match to fall under that category. Now, IMO, there seems to have been a serious negative bias toward the WWE crew, as not one of them has gotten more than B- in brawling. A B- is a pretty mediocre rating in TEW07, especially for a main eventer. While I can see an argument for Orton being there (although personally I'd have given him a B), I think that's exceptionally harsh on the other three, especially Shawn given some of the matches he's been involved in over the past year and a half. Bear in mind that those stats mean that if the WWE headlined a show with Edge vs Shawn, which I'd imagine would be a fairly good match in reality, you'd be struggling to get more than a B. Now consider that if two of their best workers are struggling to get a B, which wouldn't be good enough to help WWE maintain their popularity, they have absolutely no chance when it's matches involving Batista, Cena, etc, who are worse workers. I can understand that some people dislike the WWE's product, but from a neutral's point of view, that seems to be an excessively harsh situation to put them in. On the TNA side, I actually think the Brawling stats aren't too bad. I think Jarrett is just about dead-on in terms of accuracy, and I think if you used him as your base you'd be doing fine (i.e. I think even a TNA fan would be hard-pressed to say that Jarrett has been having better brawls than HBK over recent times, so Shawn should therefore be rated higher). I think Sting is the only one who has been given a higher grade than necessary, as generally I think his matches have been fairly poor (he looks slow and unmotivated to me, the comparison I'd make is that has he really been a better brawler than the very motivated, energetic Edge over the past year, like the stats say?) I'd go so far as to say this is the key issue that is really sinking the mod as far as realism goes. The reason WWE is struggling is that a lot of their main eventers don't have the stats to hit anything over a B-\B match - when you see that the midcard is producing Cs and Ds (which I actually agree with in terms of accuracy), it's no wonder that they are getting C+ rated shows, when they need Bs and B+s to maintain their level. Now, I edited the data to the levels I'd have given (using a close CornellVerse equivelant as a reference point) and ran a week's worth of shows, and instantly WWE are doing a lot better. If you wish to use it as a reference point, my Brawling stats for the four WWE guys were as follows: Shawn - 86% Triple H - 86% Edge - 83% Orton - 76% Obviously there's a few others on the roster who should then be tweaked accordingly. For reference, I also looked into Ransik's reports of Viscera being put in main events (using the data prior to the editing done above), and in 40 simulations of Raw, not once did he have anything other than a midcard role. I'm really not sure what else to suggest, other than you should check what stats you gave him.

[jbergey_2005]

Good news Adam,(Its too bad we couldnt have you take on a mod like this;)) I just want to add a point! Simply because the WWE doesnt use some of these workers to their full capability doesnt mean they cant do more. As mod makers in order to make this as realistic as possible, you need to assume that these workers are put on = playing fields and go from there. IF Shawn Michaels was in TNA would his stats be the same OR if Somoa Joe was in the WWE would his stats be the same? McMahon I feel holds back his wrestlers or atleast tries to make them more into actors rather than wrestlers, this doesnt mean that they arent great wrestlers. I realize this is a very hard concept and that is what makes real world mods extremely difficult. It seems a little bit that the WWE is set up to fail in this mod and that the game is really doing what it is suppose to.

[Guest Ransik]

Before forlan sent me the new data I had gone through the WWE workers and upped a lot of their stats, mostly Hardcore and Brawling, and it didn't change the effect of the shows overall. The AI just never books the top guys against each other often enough to get better matches.