Talent Trades - Why Bother

[Tigerkinney]

Before I go off on my rant there may of been a thread on this already, and I'm basing this on the original download not any of the updated patches so it may of been tweaked since then, but my rant is [B]Talent Trades...be prepared for a long rant...[/B] In a word the feature is crap...full stop, no if's...no buts..it's crap. I love this game but this feature has been poorly executed in my opinion, and it was one of the features I was most looking forward to. I'm running NOTBPW right now, and I set up a working agreement with PGHW , I was looking to do an equivalent to the ROH/NOAH agreement). But can I get any of their wrestlers to come over, for just one show ? You've guessed it the answer is no, rendering the agreement totally useless, because here is all the blocks put in front of me. 1. They only want one of your wrestlers , if he's popular in Japan. On the other side of the coin it does not matter if their main eventer has an F- in Canada. [I]I think a fairer way to do it, would be to base it on push, not on popularity in their home country . Like you can trade one of your main eventers for one of their's [/I][I]etc.[/I] 2. If there not on tour, I can't loan out one of their workers, surely the perfect time, would be to loan out one of their workers for a few dates..when they are not on tour. In return your company can then offer them a worker in return when they are on tour, but you lose that worker for a few shows to them. It would still be a gamble, as you would you have to plan for that worker not being available for a show(s). I'm not saying it happens exactly like that in real-life but it would be more realistic, it would be like KENTA coming over to ROH for a few shows, and then ROH losing Nigel McGuinesss to NOAH for a few shows in return. 3. If said Wrestler you want to loan is owner or head-booker, they won't allow you to have them either. Whilst it's a pain, I can sort of understand that one, as the wrestler is involved in the day to day running of their company. 4. They wont loan out any of their wrestlers to you if they have a title, and seeing as PGHW have a ton of titles, that's a fair chunk of the decent wrestlers you probably wanted to loan gone. Yet you can offer one of your champions, every deal just seems too one-sided in their favour. Now I can understand that they would not want one of their champions being jobbed out. Lets say I get PRIDE Koiso and then job him out to Gregg Boone...I can understand them get a bit tetchy about that. It would work better if you could loan workers with titles, but they put a block on what level of worker that worker can do the job to -otherwise it would threaten the working relationship. For example they would say that PRIDE Koiso can only lose to Main Eventers or Upper Mid-Carders, not anyone lower on the card. You should be able to put the same measures in place for one of your workers. You could also have it where giving imports big wins over your own talent, strengthens working relationships. Also on the subject of wrestlers with titles, I also have a relationship with WLW...now I have been able to bring over a few workers from there, but seeing as they also have a title for every style of wrestling..my options are limited with them also. 5. Despite all these blocks in places, I still had one or two decent options I could go after...because Dark Angel or Duane Stone have decent popularity in Japan, but I offered them to PGHW and the message I got back was that they were not interested in using them for their shows. Now I don't mind this per se, because that could very well be the case... they might not be the type of worker their interested in. I also got a too fatigued for Dark Angel, when I offered him to someone from WLW...that I also don't mind. But on top of all the other blocks, it just renders the whole idea of the talent trade option completely pointless. Whilst I'm not saying talent trades should be easy and without it being a risk, but the way they are currently set up the feature is not worth bothering with. The rewards and risk should work like this: [B]Rewards[/B] 1. The ability to put on some dream match ups and also an opportunity to keep the card fresh. 2. Giving loanees big wins in your company, can help strengthen your working relationship 3. Loaning out wrestlers to their company, can help give exposure to your company in other territories. (The game might not be able to re-create that though.) [B]Penalties[/B] 1. Added financial risk...if you keep taking on high level talent trades, it would be an extra financial burden to contend with. You might potentially put on a MOTYC between McFly and Mushashibo, but would it be worth the added financial risk ?- Especially if you are looking to loan them for more than one date. 2. Fans should still react to low level talent trades, Lower Mid-Carders down with a who ? reaction..rendering those sort of trades pointless. Even the trading of Mid-carders shouldn't always be greeted positively by your fan-base. 3. Constantly giving loanees big wins over your own roster, could hurt the morale of your own locker-room. So it has to be a balancing act. 4. Is not possible now....but see reason # 2 for my reasons why the current talent trade system is ineffective. Now I know it's a game and I don't expect the game to be easy and for this feature to be a short-cut to success, but for a feature I was so looking forward to utilizing, it has been a massive let down.

[Jacko00]

I like this talent trades thing. Why dont you sign an over japenese guy or two just for trading? I have some guys who are my main stars but I will trade them a day after the show they are wrestling on.

[Tigerkinney]

The point is I want to like the feature, but it's just badly executed in my opinion. I've tried as you said sign some over in Japan guys but that has not quite worked either. I've signed Shingen Miyazaki and SUKI to my NOTBPW roster and if you play with the original data not amended and with restrictions on SUKI should not even be available. I've been able to trade them over for some mid or lower level types from WLW. The WLW working agreement does work a bit better, and I could potentially bring over Emerald Angel for Dark Angel or Duane Stone, but right now I can't because their not on tour. I tried to sign Eisaku Hoshino (seeing as he is now a free agent) but he turned me down, saying he think he could earn more money elsewhere *. I even tried some others that were over in Japan but as they were touring with a certain other Japanese company , they were also unavailable, because you can't negotiate with workers on tour. [I]* This might tie into my current game though where the Wrestling Industry in Canada and Economy are both in the doldrums. In fact it's pretty much down everywhere. [/I]

[Genadi]

I can see our point but I wouldn't go as far as to say the whole feature's crap, I think one tweak if possible would be for the AI to treat US stars as more popular then Japanese. It's common knowledge that a midcarder can go to Japan and headline (see Matt Bloom). Maybe if workers were also valued by where they work and what fed they work for. Also maybe a one way trade could be possible where you can pay a company you're trading with a set amount for a few appearances (Kobashi & KENTA in ROH)

[Blackman]

I must say I agree with the region-bound popularity requirements. First of all, PGHW is a pure fed, and if i'm not mistaken, they don't give a crap about popularity. If I'm being a pure fan (rarely, but sometimes I am) I wanna see good wrestling, and I don't care who it is that puts on the matches. They should hire based on skill, or at least based on popularity 'somewhere', because if you're not a global fed you can't trade ****... The real thing about ROH talent trades is that the small percentage of ROH fans DO know the guy who's traded. In the game, that percentage is small but those are the same people that know the guy from Japan, with a low popularity in the ROH area, but NOT to the actual ROH public. I know this is very difficult to incorporate into the game, but these percentages are regarded not as overlapping in the game, but as relative grades. (I don't really know how to explain correctly, sorry) But it's true Japanese people probably don't know the ROH talent, but they don't care as long as it's good wrestling. Now I must add I don't mind the negative points, in fact it's a good idea and I'd love it if this gets worked out for the next version of the product. (2008?)

[Tigerkinney]

Maybe the assessment crap, was harsh and over-board on my part...but this was after I tried all I can to get some good talent from PGHW, I wanted one of their top talents to face whoever the champion was coming into the next PPV for the title in a 'dream match' and I think you can guess I was a just a tad frustrated :mad: Disappointing would be a more accurate over-view. You (Blackman) make a great point about PGHW being the sort of fed who would be more interested in a wrestlers wrestling ability than their overness. It's also the stupid blocks like can't trade for wrestlers with titles that annoy me...it's not like the game allows me to have Yoshimi Mushashibo put his PGHW title on the line NOTBPW and then job him out to Harrison Hash :rolleyes:

[Anubis]

Definitely needs tweaking. Right now, trading across the ocean just doesn't work. No way to simulate reality here yet. I think it should be tweaked to not necessarily take popularity into account.

[Harts4Life]

[QUOTE=Anubis;188398]Definitely needs tweaking. Right now, trading across the ocean just doesn't work. No way to simulate reality here yet. I think it should be tweaked to not necessarily take popularity into account.[/QUOTE] Not just across the ocean, trading across borders in general just doesn't work. Reason being, for the main point made in the first post. You can only send over guys who are the same overness in the other country, regardless of their overness in your country. Working as 4C, I can barely trade anyone for anyone else in another country. And that's with a modded universe that brought some people from CGC and NOTBPW into 4C alongside Edd Stone and Ricky DeColt. Basically, you should be able to trade anyone. Period. Title holder or not, shouldn't matter. The only thing that's made sense is not trading the owners.

[flamebrain]

[QUOTE=Tigerkinney;188348]1. They only want one of your wrestlers , if he's popular in Japan. On the other side of the coin it does not matter if their main eventer has an F- in Canada. 2. If there not on tour, I can't loan out one of their workers, surely the perfect time, would be to loan out one of their workers for a few dates..when they are not on tour. In return your company can then offer them a worker in return when they are on tour, but you lose that worker for a few shows to them. It would still be a gamble, as you would you have to plan for that worker not being available for a show(s). 3. If said Wrestler you want to loan is owner or head-booker, they won't allow you to have them either. Whilst it's a pain, I can sort of understand that one, as the wrestler is involved in the day to day running of their company. 4. They wont loan out any of their wrestlers to you if they have a title, and seeing as PGHW have a ton of titles, that's a fair chunk of the decent wrestlers you probably wanted to loan gone. Yet you can offer one of your champions, every deal just seems too one-sided in their favour. 5. Despite all these blocks in places, I still had one or two decent options I could go after...because Dark Angel or Duane Stone have decent popularity in Japan, but I offered them to PGHW and the message I got back was that they were not interested in using them for their shows.[/QUOTE] 1. The AI is employing a certain level of logic here, there is no benefit in utilising someone the crowd don't want to see. You may want to use someone wo isn't over but you are not obeying AI. 2. I was under the impression workers were only hired during tour time and so the company wouldn't have them to loan out when not on tour. May be wrong but that was the impression I got. 3. You already see the point I was making here, they have comitments. 4. Although it may happen in real life, I can perhaps see the angle here. Would you allow your champ to be jobbed to a worker from another promotion? 5. Maybe they just don't need them at that time. Also owner/booker personality may come into play (could be wrong there though) Perhaps look at it from the oppoite side, were the trades offered to you would you accept? Would the worker offered really be of any use for thelimited dates? Can you afford to lose one the worker requested for those dates, knowing also he may be injured? Are you happy to see your talent used as enhancement for someone else rather than for the benefit of your own workers? I'm not saying there is a hard and fast rule for everyone just that your situation doesn't really strike me as a failing in the game. Just my thoughts :)

[gingarob]

Can you be offered Talent Trades? If not, that would be a good feature.

[Blackman]

[QUOTE=flamebrain;188420]1. The AI is employing a certain level of logic here, there is no benefit in utilising someone the crowd don't want to see. You may want to use someone wo isn't over but you are not obeying AI. [/QUOTE] Oh hell yeah there is. There is no single doubt that my pure fed doesn't wanna see Mushashibo. They're waiting in anticipation right now, really...:) Maybe my prestige is too little, but I'm sure if I up it through the editor, it won't make a difference. It's fair you offer someone of equal skill, but overness? The crowd really doesn't care in those feds. And I don't know you can be offered something from the AI. That would indeed be a good point adding that. 'Cause by my experience, never does the AI buy out a company, change any relationship, unless you start it first. (unless you fail, in which the other promotion is all too eager to create a 'war' or hostile relationship. :))

[Marcel Fromage]

I can see quite a few of the points here and would agree that the system could be tweaked slightly. But then for me, using ROF, talent trades are generally an absolute godsend. I signed the UK workers that have some overness elsewehere - the likes of Harry Wilson, Barry Griffin and JD Morgan. I can then use these to get hold of some good workers from around the world. As ROF is a pure fed, I'm not worried about their overness being low. Recently traded Barry Griffin and UK Dragon for Magnum KOBE and Suki, and I've traded Harry Wilson for Joss Thompson (who is working for CGC). Also been able to get Frankie Perez, Simon Flemingway and Roberto Milano over at different points in time, all of whom are better workers than the majority of UK guys I can get but who I wouldn't be able to sign ordinarily (I play with restrictions on). So for a pure fed, and especially ROF in Britain with the lack of available talent, the talent trade can be a real bonus. The other bonus of the talent trades is the ideal roster thing, especially for a smaller fed. If you're one or two wrestlers short and you have a show coming up, you can just do a quick talent trade to boost your roster numbers for the show. I never need to worry too much about keeping a full 20 person roster at the moment.

[flamebrain]

[QUOTE=Blackman;188427]Oh hell yeah there is. There is no single doubt that my pure fed doesn't wanna see Mushashibo. They're waiting in anticipation right now, really...:) Maybe my prestige is too little, but I'm sure if I up it through the editor, it won't make a difference. It's fair you offer someone of equal skill, but overness? The crowd really doesn't care in those feds. And I don't know you can be offered something from the AI. That would indeed be a good point adding that. 'Cause by my experience, never does the AI buy out a company, change any relationship, unless you start it first. (unless you fail, in which the other promotion is all too eager to create a 'war' or hostile relationship. :))[/QUOTE] To an extant I think overness plays a part in any fed. Two shows run, one with Danielson v Kenta and one with Joe Bloggs v Joe Schmoe. Now both matches may be 5 star fests but I'm sure most people will want to see Danielson v Kenta. This is because they are well known and are over, now Bloggs and Schmoe may get there eventually too but their first match won't garner that much attention because there has been no word of mouth or exposure to pique fan interest. Overness won't dictate match ratings in every promotion style but I should think it would play a role in attendance and the like. I could be wrong and it isn't factored in within the game. If it isn't I would have to admit to being a bit disappointed though.

[juggaloninjalee]

I do not think this feature was a failure in fact I like how it works with one gripe... the gripe is that the AI should calculate an answer like this... Japan Worker A - has B+ in Japan C- in US. US Worker B - has C in Japan and a B in the US. Basically the AI should judge the fairness based on how over each worker is in both areas and if the difference is within 4% total or more in their favor they should do it since it will help them generate a following overseas if they ever try to venture out of their territory. Thats how I think it should be done but I still love the feature.

[flamebrain]

[QUOTE=juggaloninjalee;188444]I do not think this feature was a failure in fact I like how it works with one gripe... the gripe is that the AI should calculate an answer like this... Japan Worker A - has B+ in Japan C- in US. US Worker B - has C in Japan and a B in the US. Basically the AI should judge the fairness based on how over each worker is in both areas and if the difference is within 4% total or more in their favor they should do it since it will help them generate a following overseas if they ever try to venture out of their territory. Thats how I think it should be done but I still love the feature.[/QUOTE] Thats a good approach, keeps the trades as like-for-like.

[Blackman]

Flamebrain, you're right to a certain extent, namely that better known workers will play a role in attendance (I also hope it's incorporated into the game). But if normally, when they see new workers doing their moves for the first time and it's great, they'll be dazzled. Even in pure feds, or hybrids like ROH, people count on the trademark movesets, and 'unknown' workers generally have an unknown moveset. So maybe that plays a part too, i dunno. :)

[TravisL]

This would be better served in the suggestion forum.

[Dolfanar]

Wow... I'm a little surprised. Maybe it's because I've been using DOTT data (Where more workers have atleast some cross continental overness), but Talent trades are not the thing I'd consider completely broken. I really think that this may be solved by just a little Data tweaking. A guy who is over at 60 across the board in Japan isn't going to be completelyunknown in the US. Individual worker popularity travels across boarders MUCH faster than promotional popularity. This can be worked around and easily fixed. Development feds, OTOH? Oh yeah, now THAT's a feature that is FUBAR and doesn't allow for anything even remotely modeling the real world.

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=Tigerkinney;188348][I]I think a fairer way to do it, would be to base it on push, not on popularity in their home country . Like you can trade one of your main eventers for one of their's [/I][I]etc.[/I][/QUOTE] You're kidding, right? Please tell me you're kidding. Does that not scream 'exploit' to anyone but me? I sign Ben Williams and push him as a main eventer and pawn him off to PGHW for Yoshimi, once he drops the Glory Crown to Kunomasu. Does that not sound lopsided to you? I can understand your frustration, truly. Until I figured out the 'sign a worker with sufficient overness to get who you want' thing, I too thought the feature was faulty. But there are certain things that must be in place to reduce the exploitability of the feature while still maintaining its utility. Your above suggestion just screams "exploit" to me (like a main eventer for NYCW is really going to be worth trading a PGHW main eventer for) so I can see why it's not designed that way. Overness is the closest thing to an absolute value that we have in TEW, as far as reaching across product styles and geographical boundaries. Dharma Gregg is a main eventer for BSC but is 5SSW really going to be interested in parting with Sensational Ogiwara for her? I doubt it. The same can be said for Steve Flash (who doesn't suck really) for Yoshimi or even Shuji.

[Grudge]

I can say that if it wasn't for the talent trading feature many of my workers would not be above A as soon as they were. It really helps me boost someone up the main event real fast. And often times it helps the person I sent to the other promotion cause they get some on air time on a bigger stage.

[Tigerkinney]

[QUOTE=Remianen;188553]You're kidding, right? Please tell me you're kidding. Does that not scream 'exploit' to anyone but me? I sign Ben Williams and push him as a main eventer and pawn him off to PGHW for Yoshimi, once he drops the Glory Crown to Kunomasu. Does that not sound lopsided to you? I can understand your frustration, truly. Until I figured out the 'sign a worker with sufficient overness to get who you want' thing, I too thought the feature was faulty. But there are certain things that must be in place to reduce the exploitability of the feature while still maintaining its utility. Your above suggestion just screams "exploit" to me (like a main eventer for NYCW is really going to be worth trading a PGHW main eventer for) so I can see why it's not designed that way. Overness is the closest thing to an absolute value that we have in TEW, as far as reaching across product styles and geographical boundaries. Dharma Gregg is a main eventer for BSC but is 5SSW really going to be interested in parting with Sensational Ogiwara for her? I doubt it. The same can be said for Steve Flash (who doesn't suck really) for Yoshimi or even Shuji.[/QUOTE] I can see where you are thinking I would want to exploit the system. At the end of the day maybe I'm asking for too complex AI. Now you can correct me if I'm wrong and you may have been able to do this....have you played as NYCW, offered a working agreement to PGHW and they have agreed ? I would have though PGHW would flat out reject that working agreement. Not big enough in size and wrong style of fed. I'll hold my hands up and say that maybe my opening post was a bit OTT, but it's got people talking and I'll stick by my guns that the feature could have been designed better. [B]My main gripes are:[/B] 1. Based on Popularity in the other feds country alone, not taking into account the popularity of their worker in your country. Lets face it most of workers in Cornellverse, only have major popularity in their own country. I do like Juggalo's suggestion of calculated popularity across all areas and that could well work better than my original suggestion of trades based on Push within each company. 2. Not being able to trade for champions, I just find it absurd. As a real life example, If ROH could not trade for one of NOAH's champions..then it's less likely you would have been able to see KENTA in an ROH ring. Someone put a defence in for this block, that they could see why the other company would not want to trade one of their champions..because they might get injured. I think if something like one of their champions gets injured on your show, that should be the sort of thing that should put your working agreement in jeopardy, particularly if it's a major injury but not being able to trade for champions at all, is restrictiveness gone too far. 3. Not being able to trade, whilst the other company is not on tour. [B]What I do like:[/B] 1. Like for Like...I agree that it should be a like for like trade. I would not want them fobbing off Washi Heat to me for Sean McFly and I can see why they wouldn't want Derek Frost for Mito Miwa. But the one-sided overness in their favour , makes it virtually impossible to make a worth-while trade. 2. They'll reject the trade if the wrestler is fatigued or they are not the type of wrestler they are interested in bringing over to their fed. I'll bring this example up again, I tried to trade Duane Stone and Dark Angel, and PGHW rejected me...on top of all the other blocks it was what made me snap and post my original message, but on a grander scheme of things I don't mind this, because perhaps they are not the type of worker PGHW would be interested in. It would add some random AI to the situation, and you would not always be able to get what you want....I'm not wanting the current system to be exploitable, I just want it to be less one sided in the computer feds favour. It's still got to be a little one sided in the computer's favour to make the game a challenge, but right now it's too one sided. But I'd also believe that not everyone on my roster would not be of interest to PGHW because of the style of worker that they are. But because of the one way overness restrictions Dark Angel and Duane Stone, were the only workers I could offer that could get someone of worthwhile quality (who does not have a title) in return. 3. Not Trading for Owners/Booker...I can see where the other company would not allow you to trade for someone involved in the day to day running of their company. That being said the game is still great, but in my opinion this is a feature where Ryland got it slightly wrong... but not completely wrong ( I'm backing down from the calling it crap reaction, that was OTT) At the end of the day it's not going to stop me playing and enjoying the game...I'm just going to have to learn to live with it in it's current state.

[Tigerkinney]

[QUOTE=Grudge;188587]I can say that if it wasn't for the talent trading feature many of my workers would not be above A as soon as they were. It really helps me boost someone up the main event real fast. And often times it helps the person I sent to the other promotion cause they get some on air time on a bigger stage.[/QUOTE] Be interested to know what company you are playing as and what companies you have a working agreement with ? To be fair it's my working agreement with PGHW which has been rendered completely pointless. I do have one with WLW and I have been able to trade for some talent from there, because there top end workers don't necessarily have mega-overness in Japan. WLW are more in the C range and Dark Angel/Duane Stone are the style of workers they will happily bring over. That being said I've still been restricted by the can't trade for champions and can't trade whilst their not on tour block.

[Tigerkinney]

[QUOTE=Dolfanar;188508]Wow... I'm a little surprised. Maybe it's because I've been using DOTT data (Where more workers have atleast some cross continental overness), but Talent trades are not the thing I'd consider completely broken. I really think that this may be solved by just a little Data tweaking. A guy who is over at 60 across the board in Japan isn't going to be completelyunknown in the US. Individual worker popularity travels across boarders MUCH faster than promotional popularity. This can be worked around and easily fixed. Development feds, OTOH? Oh yeah, now THAT's a feature that is FUBAR and doesn't allow for anything even remotely modeling the real world.[/QUOTE] Another very valuable point and another way where the system could be tweaked a little. I do have a hard time swallowing that Sean McFly would only be an F+ in Japan..he may not have worked in Japan but I'm sure fans over there would have heard about him/saw him when he worked for SWF. Something in the C or D range would be more realistic. Surely workers who have worked for companies that are International or Global, should have some form of popularity in other areas.

[James Casey]

Something that might be useful would be if the AI promotions could come back and say "We don't want any of your workers/want worker X" when you offer a trade they're not interested in.

[Sartagis]

[QUOTE=CarlitoCoool;188383]It's common knowledge that a midcarder can go to Japan and headline (see Matt Bloom).[/QUOTE] That's not true. Bloom started as a mid carder in AJPW. And he rose up from there after slowing destroying and beating other mid carders in very good matches. Then when he got to the main event in AJPW he jumped ship to a bigger company (NJPW) and started at upper mid maybe. Then had More good matches and good wins and moved to the main event. Now he might have moved up a little faster then he would stateside but that's only because. JPN feds seem to know how to book giant hoss's better these days (and have a bit more of a market for em as they aren't everywheres) and AJPW/NJPW have always had one big gaijin monster ace. Norton was the guy in NJPW Bloom came in and replaced him.