Hall of Immortals

[James Casey]

If hitting National status was enough, then Daddy and Haystacks (and Nagasaki and maybe even Pat "The Bomber" Roach) would be in. But they'd be lacking in every other area - unless you want to argue that Joint Promotions in the UK was ever considered a major promotion. Jushin Liger must be in, on the basis of titles, matches, national icon (in Japan) and WotY awards - and even if the Juniors in Japan don't headline all that often, he still won the Super J Cup and similar. I can think of a lot of borderline cases. For me, only Flair and Hogan would definitely be in a RL Hall of Fame, as they had the longevity and era-defining popularity that made them transcend wrestling. I figured that running them through the editor would help: Bret Hart - The Editor says: 7 Major titles, 3 WM main events, 1 Legendary match (vs. Owen, WMX) and National (Canadian, at least) Icon = Inducted The Rock - The Editor says: 7 WWE titles, 4 WM main events, 1 WotY and National Icon = Inducted Sting - The Editor says: 7 NWA/WCW titles, 1 Starrcade & 1 Superbrawl main event (were there more?), 1 WotY and 2 Legendary matches (War Games 1992, vs. Vader GAB 1992) would not be enough to induct him - but 1 more qualifying main events (I'm sure there were more) would. I didn't count the Invasion-era WCW World titles for Rock, incidentally - but it doesn't matter if I did or not ;) Anyone else want to run some through? My research is a bit shaky, but it'd sort out some of the disagreements :p

[Michael Wayne]

[QUOTE=James Casey;429355]If hitting National status was enough, then Daddy and Haystacks (and Nagasaki and maybe even Pat "The Bomber" Roach) would be in. But they'd be lacking in every other area - unless you want to argue that Joint Promotions in the UK was ever considered a major promotion. Jushin Liger must be in, on the basis of titles, matches, national icon (in Japan) and WotY awards - and even if the Juniors in Japan don't headline all that often, he still won the Super J Cup and similar. I can think of a lot of borderline cases. For me, only Flair and Hogan would definitely be in a RL Hall of Fame, as they had the longevity and era-defining popularity that made them transcend wrestling. I figured that running them through the editor would help: Bret Hart - The Editor says: 7 Major titles, 3 WM main events, 1 Legendary match (vs. Owen, WMX) and National (Canadian, at least) Icon = Inducted The Rock - The Editor says: 7 WWE titles, 4 WM main events, 1 WotY and National Icon = Inducted Sting - The Editor says: 7 NWA/WCW titles, 1 Starrcade & 1 Superbrawl main event (were there more?), 1 WotY and 2 Legendary matches (War Games 1992, vs. Vader GAB 1992) would not be enough to induct him - but 1 more qualifying main events (I'm sure there were more) would. I didn't count the Invasion-era WCW World titles for Rock, incidentally - but it doesn't matter if I did or not ;) Anyone else want to run some through? My research is a bit shaky, but it'd sort out some of the disagreements :p[/QUOTE] Bret vs Owen a legendary match?? :rolleyes: More like Bret vs Shawn. And Bret vs Austin (WM 13). You're also forgetting he headlined Survivor Series with Shawn, his match with Taker (Shawn as guest ref) amung many. You also need to count things he did in WCW.

[Jennie Bomb]

[quote=MisterSocko;429342]Adam Ryland himself set the bar... I'll just quote him: So yeah, you're down to just a handful of guys, including Steve Austin who's famous worldwide, and not including Giant Haystacks who's not. Even a non-wrestling fan has to have been living under a rock for the past fifteen years to have never heard of Stone Cold Steve Austin. You just can't say the same for any UK wrestler, period. It doesn't mean they're not good, it doesn't mean they don't deserve a spot in the pro wrestling hall of fame (=/= Adam Ryland's TEW 2008 Hall of Immortals), it just mean you can't consider they play in the same league as someone like Stone Cold Steve Austin.[/quote] Austin is not even a crossover star. Non-wrestling fans do not know him. Exactly how does that make him more than cultural icons? World of Sport hasn't been broadcast on television in nearly 20 years and Big Daddy died before Austin had even taken off, yet still the few top stars live on in the cultural consciousness. Besides, even at Raw's peak, it failed to manage a US viewership that matched the peak of WoS - despite being in a radically larger market with many more potential viewers, Raw's highest rating (8.4 or so for a single segment, mind) equates to roughly 9.5million viewers, fewer than the 10 million plus (out of a popularion of less than 60 million at the time) that regularly watched WoS in it's heyday. And Raw is a primetime show, not a Saturday afternoon affair. I really don't think you can make a legitimate case to exclude the peak few from the WoS era given just how much of an impact they had on the British cultural consciousness.

[Jennie Bomb]

[quote=Michael Wayne;429359]Bret vs Owen a legendary match?? :rolleyes: More like Bret vs Shawn. And Bret vs Austin (WM 13). You're also forgetting he headlined Survivor Series with Shawn, his match with Taker (Shawn as guest ref) amung many. You also need to count things he did in WCW.[/quote] Bret v. Owen recieved a 5* rating from Meltzer. No Bret v. Shawn match ever managed that.

[Michael Wayne]

[QUOTE=Jennie Bomb;429364]Bret v. Owen recieved a 5* rating from Meltzer. No Bret v. Shawn match ever managed that.[/QUOTE] wrestling fans would say otherwise. And seriously.. You're following Meltzer on this issue? The guy with a fetish for ladder matches and who gives out 5* ratings like it's going out of style? I'm sorry, but Bret/Shawn is a classic. Bret/Owen is not. And is always rated not only by WWE fans, but by WWE themselves as one of the top 10 greatest matches of all time.

[The Bus]

I would count them both in. Owen as the 5* and HBK as simply legendary.

[KColl]

[QUOTE=Michael Wayne;429366]wrestling fans would say otherwise. And seriously.. You're following Meltzer on this issue? The guy with a fetish for ladder matches and who gives out 5* ratings like it's going out of style? I'm sorry, but Bret/Shawn is a classic. Bret/Owen is not. And is always rated not only by WWE fans, but by WWE themselves as one of the top 10 greatest matches of all time.[/QUOTE] Huh, Bret had far better matches with Davey Boy, Hennig, Owen, and Austin than he ever did with Michaels.

[MisterSocko]

[QUOTE=Jennie Bomb;429362]Austin is not even a crossover star. Non-wrestling fans do not know him.[/QUOTE] I'm starting to wonder if we're talking about the same Stone Cold Steve Austin here... Overall, I'm sure you'll find way more non-wrestling fans who know about him than non-wrestling who know about Big Daddy. Maybe not in the UK, but anywhere else in the rest of the world. And I mean, just think of it: ask your average casual wrestling fan, anywhere in the world but in the UK, "Do you know about a wrestler called Big Daddy?". I can garantee that most of them will think you're talking about WWE midcarder Big Daddy V, not British legend Shirley Crabtree. And ask your average casual wrestling fan, anywhere in the world including the UK, "Do you know about a wrestler called Stone Cold Steve Austin", you'll probably get a "Yes" most of the time. With all due respect to Mr Crabtree, he's nowhere near Austin in terms of popularity, fame, importance in the history of pro wrestling in general, and iconic status. As for counting 5* matches or trying to figure out which PPV/title should be considered important or not to justify the induction of someone in the Hall of Immortals, I think that the fact that you have to try to justify it just goes to prove that no, you're talking about a guy who shouldn't be in the HoI. Let's imagine that you're trying to come up with a list like "The Top 10 basketball players in history". Of course, the list is going to include MJ, Magic, Bird. Are you going to justify it by citing how many times MJ was MVP of the year, or how many NBA titles Magic and Bird won? Of course not. You don't need to. They're Jordan, Johnson, Bird. It goes without saying that they're in the Top 10 basketball players list. Now, if you're starting to consider inducting someone like, say, Mark Price, and try to justify it by counting how many times he won the 3 point contest at the All Star Game, or for how many years he led the NBA in free throws accuracy, then you're not working on a Top 10 best players list any more, you're just a Mark Price fan trying to give to your guy a spot he doesn't deserve. Same goes for wrestlers. You don't have to remember precisely how many times Hogan won an important title to know that he should definitely be in the HoI. You don't need to remember how many times Flair had a 5 star match, you don't have to list the achievements of Austin, they just obviously deserve a spot. Because they're Hogan, Flair, Austin. If it's not OBVIOUS that somebody should be on the list, it's safe to assume that they probably don't deserve a spot.

[Jennie Bomb]

[quote=Michael Wayne;429366]wrestling fans would say otherwise. And seriously.. You're following Meltzer on this issue? The guy with a fetish for ladder matches and who gives out 5* ratings like it's going out of style? I'm sorry, but Bret/Shawn is a classic. Bret/Owen is not. And is always rated not only by WWE fans, but by WWE themselves as one of the top 10 greatest matches of all time.[/quote] Meltzer's 5* match list isn't particularly long, actually. It's not flawless, but I generally agree with it. Particularly on the Owen match, which is a very, very well put together and performed match. Which Bret/Shawn match are you refering to, anyway?

[Chriswok]

[QUOTE=Jennie Bomb;429393]Meltzer's 5* match list isn't particularly long, actually. It's not flawless, but I generally agree with it. Particularly on the Owen match, which is a very, very well put together and performed match. Which Bret/Shawn match are you refering to, anyway?[/QUOTE] I'd assume he was talking about the Iron Man match.

[paulskln]

when asked the question "who is steve austin?" my wife replied was he the six million dollar man...when asked who is hulk hogan...she says he is in the series "hogan knows best".she dont have a clue who andre the giant is...she knows the rock from movies...the only wrestlers she knows because of wrestling are big daddy and giant haystacks lol...so only the fat old brits get in our hall of immortals...

[Jennie Bomb]

[quote=MisterSocko;429391] Same goes for wrestlers. You don't have to remember precisely how many times Hogan won an important title to know that he should definitely be in the HoI. You don't need to remember how many times Flair had a 5 star match, you don't have to list the achievements of Austin, they just obviously deserve a spot. Because they're Hogan, Flair, Austin. If it's not OBVIOUS that somebody should be on the list, it's safe to assume that they probably don't deserve a spot.[/quote] Exactly. That's why the WoS icons should be in. They easily belong on that list.

[EricAdams]

In the Puro world I think Kobashi, Misawa and Jumbo are all locks.

[Jennie Bomb]

[quote=Chriswok;429398]I'd assume he was talking about the Iron Man match.[/quote] Then I don't see where the argument is that Owen/Bret isn't better. The Iron Man match was nowhere near being a great match. It's the poster child for why Iron Man matches are a bad idea.

[Chriswok]

[QUOTE=Jennie Bomb;429407]Then I don't see where the argument is that Owen/Bret isn't better. The Iron Man match was nowhere near being a great match. It's the poster child for why Iron Man matches are a bad idea.[/QUOTE] My view on the examples given would be biased anyway, Owen Hart being my favorite wrestler, and the Bret/Owen Hart feud being my favorite feud. The Cage match also being my favorite cage match (followed by Austin v McMahon St.Valentine's Day Massacre). Though, I personally don't think that the Shawn Michaels v Bret Hart Iron Man match was bad at all, I enjoyed that as well. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrestling_Observer_Newsletter_awards[/url] Here's the wikipage on the WON awards, just for reference for those that visit this thread for things

[soundsofsilver]

[QUOTE=Jennie Bomb;429407]Then I don't see where the argument is that Owen/Bret isn't better. The Iron Man match was nowhere near being a great match. It's the poster child for why Iron Man matches are a bad idea.[/QUOTE] For what it's worth, the WM12 Iron Man match is my favorite match of all time. Bret Hart is my favorite wrestler, and I would say both the HBK match and the Owen match qualify... perhaps also his match with Davey Boy at Summerslam. I'm not sure what constitutes headlining a legendary/historic event. Surely Starrcade and WrestleMania. Summerslam too I presume. Would Survivor Series and Royal Rumble be in? Then, what about Great American Bash? While GAB is the oldest WCW event after Starrcade, I don't think being on a GAB main event was necessarily an amazing accomplishment; but neither would Survivor Series or Royal Rumble. Tough to call; I wonder what Ryland's opinion is. :)

[Chriswok]

[QUOTE=soundsofsilver;429415]For what it's worth, the WM12 Iron Man match is my favorite match of all time. Bret Hart is my favorite wrestler, and I would say both the HBK match and the Owen match qualify... perhaps also his match with Davey Boy at Summerslam. [B]I'm not sure what constitutes headlining a legendary/historic event[/B]. Surely Starrcade and WrestleMania. Summerslam too I presume. Would Survivor Series and Royal Rumble be in? Then, what about Great American Bash? While GAB is the oldest WCW event after Starrcade, I don't think being on a GAB main event was necessarily an amazing accomplishment; but neither would Survivor Series or Royal Rumble. Tough to call; I wonder what Ryland's opinion is. :)[/QUOTE] From a mod makers view, Starrcade and Wrestlemania are the only Legendary Events I have on my database at the moment.

[Michael Wayne]

[QUOTE=Chriswok;429422]From a mod makers view, Starrcade and Wrestlemania are the only Legendary Events I have on my database at the moment.[/QUOTE] Halloween Havoc Great American Bash Bash At the Beach Survivor Series Summerslam and Royal Rumble being the only historic events related to WCW/WWE. Or at least they should be.

[Chriswok]

[QUOTE=Michael Wayne;429435]Halloween Havoc Great American Bash Bash At the Beach Survivor Series Summerslam and Royal Rumble being the only historic events related to WCW/WWE. Or at least they should be.[/QUOTE] Wouldn't call them legendary though, which was what my post was about. As for historic, I agree with some of them, Overall Bash at the Beach, shouldn't really be THAT historic, apart from the Hogan Heel turn, tell me one other thing that ever happened 'decent' at BatB? I mean, I can see why it could be historic, but in terms of how the game uses it (people will buy/watch the even because of what it is ie: I don't care about the card - its Wrestlemania!) I wouldn't call Bash at the Beach one of those events (historically), maybe highly regarded at highest.

[alden]

I don't think there were enough batb's to be "historic" when did it start? 93....it stoped in 01 i believe was the last one maybe 2000 so that is only eight at the most. I don't think any thing that only had eight shows would be historic.

[soundsofsilver]

[QUOTE=Chriswok;429437]Wouldn't call them legendary though, which was what my post was about. As for historic, I agree with some of them, Overall Bash at the Beach, shouldn't really be THAT historic, apart from the Hogan Heel turn, tell me one other thing that ever happened 'decent' at BatB? I mean, I can see why it could be historic, but in terms of how the game uses it (people will buy/watch the even because of what it is ie: I don't care about the card - its Wrestlemania!) I wouldn't call Bash at the Beach one of those events (historically), maybe highly regarded at highest.[/QUOTE] Well, in addition to one of the biggest moments in American wrestling history, in Hogan's heel turn, Bash at the Beach also featured Hogan's debut to WCW in 1994 with Hogan vs. Flair. If we're going to give each promotion 4 historic events, SuperBrawl would have to be in contention as well. I'm just not sure which events qualify.

[Chriswok]

[QUOTE=soundsofsilver;429446]Well, in addition to one of the biggest moments in American wrestling history, in Hogan's heel turn, Bash at the Beach also featured Hogan's debut to WCW in 1994 with Hogan vs. Flair. If we're going to give each promotion 4 historic events, SuperBrawl would have to be in contention as well. I'm just not sure which events qualify.[/QUOTE] That's the beauty of an editor, if you think it should be one thing, and someone has it as another, you can always change it :)

[BluePrint83]

Bash at the Beach History [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bash_at_the_Beach[/url]

[BluePrint83]

About this Bret Hart argument. here's a top 50 list from Lords of Pain. Both Bret Hart matches are rated in the Top 5. 01 – Bret Hart vs. Davey Boy Smith (Summerslam ’92) 02 – Randy Savage vs. Ricky Steamboat (Wrestlemania 3) [B]03 – Bret Hart vs. Shawn Michaels (Iron Man Match, Wrestlemania 12)[/B] [B]04 – Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart (Wrestlemania 10)[/B] 05 – Razor Ramon vs. Shawn Michaels (Ladder Match, Wrestlemania 10) 06 – Bret Hart vs. Mr. Perfect (Summerslam ’91) 07 – Hulk Hogan vs. Andre the Giant (Wrestlemania 3) 08 – Undertaker vs. Mankind (Hell In A Cell, King of the Ring ’98) 09 – Hulk Hogan vs. Ultimate Warrior (Wrestlemania 6) 10 – Edge & Christian vs. The Hardys (Ladder Match, No Mercy ’99) 11 – Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin (Submission Match, Wrestlemania 13) 12 – Mankind vs. Shawn Michaels (Mind Games) 13 – Randy Savage vs. Ultimate Warrior (Career Match, Wrestlemania 7) 14 – Triple H vs. Steve Austin (Best of 3 Falls, No Way Out 2001) 15 – Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon (Ladder Match, Summerslam ’95) 16 – Undertaker vs. Shawn Michaels (Hell In A Cell, Badd Blood) 17 – The Rock vs. Mankind (I Quit Match, Royal Rumble ’99) 18 – Steve Austin vs. Kurt Angle (Summerslam 2001) 19 – Randy Savage vs. Ric Flair (Wrestlemania 8) 20 – Steve Austin vs. Shawn Michaels (Wrestlemania 14) 21 – Edge & Christian vs. Hardys vs. Dudleys (TLC, Summerslam) 22 – Steve Austin vs. Dude Love (Over The Edge ’98) 23 – Chris Benoit vs. Steve Austin (Smackdown) 24 – The Rock vs. Triple H (Iron Man Match, Judgement Day 2000) 25 – Chris Benoit & Chris Jericho vs. Steve Austin & Triple H (RAW) 27 – Hardys vs. Edge & Christian vs. Dudleys (3 Way Ladder Match, Wrestlemania 2000) 26 – Cactus Jack vs. Triple H (Street Fight, Royal Rumble 2000) 28 – The Rock vs. Steve Austin (Wrestlemania X7) 29 – Terry Funk vs. Mick Foley (Falls Count Anywhere, RAW) 30 – Chris Jericho vs. Kurt Angle vs. Chris Benoit (2 Falls Triple Threat, Wrestlemania 2000) 31 – Chris Jericho vs. Chris Benoit (Ladder Match, Royal Rumble 2001) 32 – Hardys vs. Dudleys (Tables Match, Royal Rumble 2000) 33 – Triple H vs. Chris Jericho (Last Man Standing, Fully Loaded 2000) 34 – Bret Hart vs. Bob Backlund (Submission Match, Survivor Series ’94) 35 – Edge & Christian vs. Dudleys vs. Hardys (TLC 2, Wrestlemania X7) 36 – Bret Hart vs. Rowdy Roddy Piper (Wrestlemania 8) 37 – Kurt Angle vs. Chris Benoit (Cage Match, RAW) 38 – Steve Austin vs. The Rock (Wrestlemania 15) 39 – Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin (Survivor Series ’96) 40 – Chris Benoit vs. Chris Jericho (Submission Match, Judgement Day 2000) 41 – Edge & Christian vs. The Hardys (Cage Match, Unforgiven 2000) 42 – Steve Austin vs. Undertaker (Buried Alive Match, Rock Bottom) 43 – Mankind vs. Triple H (Steel Cage Match, Summerslam ’91) 44 – Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart (Steel Cage Match, Summerslam ’94) 45 – Bret Hart vs. Hakushi (In Your House, May ’95) 46 – Shawn Michaels vs. Jeff Jarrett (In Your House, July ’95) 47 – The Rock vs. Triple H (Ladder Match, Summerslam ’98) 48 – Bret Hart vs. Diesel (Survivor Series ’95) 49 – 1992 Royal Rumble Match (Royal Rumble ’92) 50 – Shawn Michaels vs. Diesel (Wrestlemania 11)

[GHMark]

Here's a list of the people I think should be in, no matter what... Ric Flair Lou Thesz Rikidozan Antonio Inoki Hulk Hogan El Santo Giant Baba Steve Austin Frank Gotch Buddy Rogers Mitsuharu Misawa Jumbo Tsuruta Jushin Liger Akira Maeda George Hackenschmidt Chigusa Nagayo Shinya Hashimoto Gene Kiniski Bobo Brazil Atsushi Onita Mil Masacras Danny Hodge