SWF: Generation Supreme

[Bigpapa42]

[QUOTE=Zeel1;683083][i]Dude.[/i] The Money World Order has made it's way to Supreme! Hmm..maybe I should use that "free wish" of mine to make Giant Tana their Vincent..? :p And holy crap, Rich Money carried Bruce the Giant to an A match..? *..Proceeds to drink the Kool-Aid.*[/QUOTE] You, I never really looked at them as the NWO.... but I guess there's a bit there... I did take the garbage throwing from the 1996 Bash at the Beach where the NWO was formed. The funny thing is that I don't quite regard the Money quartet as a full official stable at this point - which is why they haven't been given a name yet. I was thinking of them moreso being associated with DiBiase from the lead-up to WrestleMania IV - with Money-Remo-Bruce being a bit like DiBiase-Virgil-Andre, though honestly Newton has more of a Virgil role than Remo. But there are NWO elements there, too, I guess. As for the match, I was expecting anything, though below a B- might have surprised me. In USPW, BTG scored regular B matches against James Justice. And they ran that one a lot. A couple B- ones and a B+ in the series. There is great chemistry between Bruce and Money, plus I kept the match short. I was very happy to see the A, I must admit. As for Tana, a Tana-Bruce tag team could be awe-inspiring... or vomit-inspiring... [QUOTE=R.O.F.L;683091]I only hope now that I'm even close to able to do what you've been able to do Papa, Kudos ![/QUOTE] Thanks. You're off to a solid start. Keep working at it and things will come together.

[Zeel1]

[QUOTE=Bigpapa42;683099]You, I never really looked at them as the NWO.... but I guess there's a bit there... I did take the garbage throwing from the 1996 Bash at the Beach where the NWO was formed. The funny thing is that I don't quite regard the Money quartet as a full official stable at this point - which is why they haven't been given a name yet. I was thinking of them moreso being associated with DiBiase from the lead-up to WrestleMania IV - with Money-Remo-Bruce being a bit like DiBiase-Virgil-Andre, though honestly Newton has more of a Virgil role than Remo. But there are NWO elements there, too, I guess. As for the match, I was expecting anything, though below a B- might have surprised me. In USPW, BTG scored regular B matches against James Justice. And they ran that one a lot. A couple B- ones and a B+ in the series. There is great chemistry between Bruce and Money, plus I kept the match short. I was very happy to see the A, I must admit. As for Tana, a Tana-Bruce tag team could be awe-inspiring... or vomit-inspiring...[/QUOTE] Yeah, the garbage bit is generally what made me think of them as an mWo. Well, that and the screwy finish. Definately an nWo type ending there. And then the fact that it's a stable of main eventers, as was nWo when it first formed.. I actually do have a Tana idea, but it doesn't involve anything that would affect the booking..but you'll find out about that later.. ;)

[SeanMcFly]

Nother solid show papa, keep it up !

[ampulator]

[QUOTE=Bigpapa42;683068]Okay, I'm trying to get out of this habit, but I want to throw out a few of my thoughts about this show. Mainly because its something I was booking towards for a long time. -Bruce the Giant. Biggie Smalls. Brucie. This is the reason I brought him in. The most epic "insurance policy" imaginable for Rich Money. This has been the plan from about the Times of Trouble PPV, when I figured I could probably manage to sign Bruce when his contract came up. He will see in-ring action, but not that frequently. It smacks a bit of the DiBiase union with Andre the Giant, which is something that made me reconsider it a bit (I've tried to keep Money from being a DiBiase clone). But it just works to well in my mind. The match was based on the Bruce the Giant versus Rip Chord match from 1993, which was Chord's last in the SWF. Its #10 on the all time great CornellVerse matches. I though it would be fun as it both plays up the "Money respects the business" idea and also would give some fans a clue that things were "off" in the match... When it came to booking it, I really wasn't sure how it would all work, to be honest. They had good chemistry, which helped. But Bruce came in as a heel, which made this my first heel-versus-heel main event that I've done, outside of possibly once or twice on the B show. I just didn't know how it would work here. It could've pulled a B- and I wouldn't been that shocked. Because of that possibility, I kept the rest of the show kinda meh in terms of match quality. No use wasting a couple likely B+/A matches on a show which could have a B- main event that drags things down really bad. -went overboard on the Newton promo, but I wanted to finally have him start establishing a real character on the shows. -I have a couple OCC posts I want to do in the next day or two, likely before I get to the next show. As always, curious to hear people's thoughts on the show.[/QUOTE] Ted Dibiase was awesome. It kind of makes me sad that I could have only watched him after his prime in wrestling. Besides, Rich Money has the incredible heel qualities. He's a mindgamer like Jake Roberts, resourceful as Ted Dibiase, as talented as Ric Flair, as "Perfect" as Curt Hennig. The only other great heels he doesn't have qualities of are "Ravishing" Rick Rude and "Macho Man" Randy Savage, but otherwise, Rich Money is an incredible Heel, period. As a smark, Rich Money's reign is sort of what should have happened for those heels, and it's good seeing it.

[Bigpapa42]

[QUOTE=Zeel1;683110]Yeah, the garbage bit is generally what made me think of them as an mWo. Well, that and the screwy finish. Definately an nWo type ending there. And then the fact that it's a stable of main eventers, as was nWo when it first formed.. I actually do have a Tana idea, but it doesn't involve anything that would affect the booking..but you'll find out about that later.. ;)[/QUOTE] The idea with the match was to have the fans think it was legit, up until they start celebrating together at the end. Only a few of the fans would likely recognize that the match up to the choke slam was a recreation of the Bruce-Chord match. [QUOTE=SeanMcFly;683124]Nother solid show papa, keep it up ![/QUOTE] Thanks. [QUOTE=ampulator;683150]Ted Dibiase was awesome. It kind of makes me sad that I could have only watched him after his prime in wrestling. Besides, Rich Money has the incredible heel qualities. He's a mindgamer like Jake Roberts, resourceful as Ted Dibiase, as talented as Ric Flair, as "Perfect" as Curt Hennig. The only other great heels he doesn't have qualities of are "Ravishing" Rick Rude and "Macho Man" Randy Savage, but otherwise, Rich Money is an incredible Heel, period. As a smark, Rich Money's reign is sort of what should have happened for those heels, and it's good seeing it.[/QUOTE] DiBiase is a guy who I look back on and think he really could have carried the E as a champion, at least for a time. I think he suffered a bit for being able to make others look good, plus a matter of timing. I did get to see him wrestle live at least once, though I was quite young at the time. It was when he was feuding with Dusty Rhodes. Money is obviously pretty fun to write as heel. I actually have to reign myself sometimes so I don't go too overboard and make it the Money TV brand.

[Bigpapa42]

[B][CENTER]OCC: Pay Per View Changes[/CENTER] [/B] [CENTER][IMG]http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k235/Bigpapa42_2006/Wrestling/Logos/PPV/SWF/Mid/SWFHellFreezesOverMid.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k235/Bigpapa42_2006/Wrestling/Logos/PPV/SWF/Mid/SWFNothingtoLoseMid.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k235/Bigpapa42_2006/Wrestling/Logos/PPV/SWF/Mid/SWFAwesomeImpactMid.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k235/Bigpapa42_2006/Wrestling/Logos/PPV/SWF/Mid/TheWorldisWatchingMid.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k235/Bigpapa42_2006/Wrestling/Logos/PPV/SWF/Mid/SWFMasterofPuppetsMid.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k235/Bigpapa42_2006/Wrestling/Logos/PPV/SWF/Mid/TimesofTroubleMid.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k235/Bigpapa42_2006/Wrestling/Logos/PPV/SWF/Mid/SWFSupremeChallengeMid.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k235/Bigpapa42_2006/Wrestling/Logos/PPV/SWF/Mid/WelcometotheJungleMid.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k235/Bigpapa42_2006/Wrestling/Logos/PPV/SWF/Mid/UnderControlMid.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k235/Bigpapa42_2006/Wrestling/Logos/PPV/SWF/Mid/LettheGamesBeginMid.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k235/Bigpapa42_2006/Wrestling/Logos/PPV/SWF/Mid/BreakLiketheWinMid.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k235/Bigpapa42_2006/Wrestling/Logos/PPV/SWF/Mid/ChristmasClashMid.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER] A couple weeks back, I proposed some possible changes to the pay per view format for the SWF for 2009. Even put up a poll link so readers could vote. I got more responses than I expected - 26 - and they were pretty spit across the options. Four of the options got at least 5 votes. There were even a couple of write-in suggestions. So thanks for everyone for taking the time to consider it and vote. So the close-to-final decision I've come to is to switch things to a partial split by brand. It is either going to be a 4-4-4 or a 4-4-2-2 split, with each brand getting 4 brand-specific shows, and the other four being co-branded. Those four co-branded might be all featuring possible cross-brand matches, or possibly only 2 of them. [B]January 2009 - SWF When Hell Freezes Over 2009[/B] - [U]Co-Branded[/U] [B]February 2009 - SWF Nothing to Lose 2009[/B] - [U]Supreme Brand[/U] [B]March 2009 - SWF Awesome Impact 2009[/B] - [U]Legends Brand[/U] [B]April 2009 - SWF the World is Watching 2009[/B] - [U]Supreme Brand[/U] [B]May 2009 - SWF Master of Puppets 2009[/B] - [U]Legends Brand[/U] [B]June 2009 - SWF Times of Trouble 2009[/B] - [U]Co-Branded[/U] [B]July 2009 - SWF The Supreme Challenge 29[/B] - [U]Co-Branded[/U] [B]August 2009 - SWF Welcome to the Jungle 2009[/B] - [U]Supreme Brand [/U] [B]September 2009 - SWF Under Control 2009[/B] - [U]Legends Brand[/U] [B]October 2009 - SWF Let the Games Begin 2009[/B] - [U]Supreme Brand[/U] [B]November 2009 - SWF Break Like the Wind 2009[/B] - [U]Legends Brand[/U] [B]December 2009 - SWF Christmas Clash 2009 [/B] - [U]Co-Branded[/U] This is the layout I'm likely to use. I will try it for at least the first half of 2009. If I don't like how its working, I could switch back for the last half of the year. Which is, of course, making the massive assumption that this thing is still going by that point. This change will allow me to go to a 3-hour PPVs for the single-brand PPVs. It will mean that some of the guys not right at the very top are more likely to get on PPV. It should also make getting an A* event a bit tougher.

[ampulator]

[QUOTE=Bigpapa42;683184] DiBiase is a guy who I look back on and think he really could have carried the E as a champion, at least for a time. I think he suffered a bit for being able to make others look good, plus a matter of timing. I did get to see him wrestle live at least once, though I was quite young at the time. It was when he was feuding with Dusty Rhodes. Money is obviously pretty fun to write as heel. I actually have to reign myself sometimes so I don't go too overboard and make it the Money TV brand.[/QUOTE] I think Vince believed (probably correctly) that heels didn't sell merchandise, get buyrates or ratings, for him during that time in history. Those fans would prefer to see faces triumphing over heels. The problem was this formula got him in trouble, because it eventually cost him (Ultimate Warrior screwing him, and Hogan, leaving for WCW to form the nWo). Also, people got sick of seeing the same people winning over and over again.

[D-Lyrium]

The main event and following angle, as awesome as they were once I'd read it all, was a bit confusing to start with, in terms of fan reaction. As a fan, Bruce comes into this match as a babyface, for the sole reason that he's just returned after a long time away and is now fighting Rich Money for the SWF title. Eric Eisen is a massive heel. Because he's an Eisen. But I don't think that's enough to make Bruce a heel by association - Eisen's still a general manager, he still needs to provide interesting matches for the fans. So Bruce, to my mind, was a babyface going in. But 'officially' he was a heel. I get why *now* (because debuting as a face and turning heel on the very next show wouldn't be a fantastic idea). Rich Money is obviously also a massive heel. So we had a heel acting like a babyface, screwing over an annoying, weasely over-confident heel by conspiring with another heel to screw up all the weasel's plans. I'm not so sure I'd have been booing that all that much. Sure, as a fan we got screwed out of (another) legitimate main event, but in the end it's Eric Eisen that's suffered most. It also means, of course, that the last... what, twenty minutes? Fifteen at least, were taken up by a load of heels all screwing each other over. Not so keen, to be honest. Then, earlier, we had Randy Bumfhole (no idea what affiliation Generation Supreme are any more... I'm assuming none of them have actually turned, so they're mostly heels except the Keith boys and Los Diablos?) telling us that they want respect and top spots on the card, but he's pissed off and it's so unfair because Jay Chord is getting exactly what they asked for? Maaan, Supreme is confusing. Can't wait for nice, simple, Legends. :p It appears I'm the one the product analysis is talking about when it says 'some fans won't 'get' subtle gimmicks'. ¬_¬

[James Casey]

[QUOTE=D-Lyrium;683288] Then, earlier, we had Randy Bumfhole (no idea what affiliation Generation Supreme are any more... I'm assuming none of them have actually turned, so they're mostly heels except the Keith boys and Los Diablos?) telling us that they want respect and top spots on the card, but he's pissed off and it's so unfair because Jay Chord is getting exactly what they asked for? Maaan, Supreme is confusing. Can't wait for nice, simple, Legends. :p It appears I'm the one the product analysis is talking about when it says 'some fans won't 'get' subtle gimmicks'. ¬_¬[/QUOTE] I suspect that this was just a meta-acknowledgement that Jay will be Gen-S's designated bottom feeder. Need a man to job to Giant Tana? Jay. Need a man to throw custard pies at? Jay. Need a man to do publicity at the Rainbow Bar & Grill? You get the idea. I must admit, having the heels at war with one another, and the faces allied with the heels... It can be confusing. Like you say, Legends is simple in comparison. It's great that '08 allows that kind of brand distinction. I guess 'The Nuke' failed as a gimmick, huh? I can't wait to run an SWF diary myself, as I'm looking forward to using Nuke as a character. Not a wrestler, of course. Just a character...

[jesseewiak]

[QUOTE=D-Lyrium;683288]The main event and following angle, as awesome as they were once I'd read it all, was a bit confusing to start with, in terms of fan reaction. As a fan, Bruce comes into this match as a babyface, for the sole reason that he's just returned after a long time away and is now fighting Rich Money for the SWF title. Eric Eisen is a massive heel. Because he's an Eisen. But I don't think that's enough to make Bruce a heel by association - Eisen's still a general manager, he still needs to provide interesting matches for the fans. So Bruce, to my mind, was a babyface going in. But 'officially' he was a heel. I get why *now* (because debuting as a face and turning heel on the very next show wouldn't be a fantastic idea). Rich Money is obviously also a massive heel. So we had a heel acting like a babyface, screwing over an annoying, weasely over-confident heel by conspiring with another heel to screw up all the weasel's plans. I'm not so sure I'd have been booing that all that much. Sure, as a fan we got screwed out of (another) legitimate main event, but in the end it's Eric Eisen that's suffered most. It also means, of course, that the last... what, twenty minutes? Fifteen at least, were taken up by a load of heels all screwing each other over. Not so keen, to be honest. Then, earlier, we had Randy Bumfhole (no idea what affiliation Generation Supreme are any more... I'm assuming none of them have actually turned, so they're mostly heels except the Keith boys and Los Diablos?) telling us that they want respect and top spots on the card, but he's pissed off and it's so unfair because Jay Chord is getting exactly what they asked for? Maaan, Supreme is confusing. Can't wait for nice, simple, Legends. :p It appears I'm the one the product analysis is talking about when it says 'some fans won't 'get' subtle gimmicks'. ¬_¬[/QUOTE] SHADES OF GREY~ Actually honesty, in real life, Money would be probably getting Orton-like mixed face-ish pops right now. At least when he's not facing McFly or Faith.

[ampulator]

Well, for better or for worse (probably for the better), the game doesn't simulate the situations where fans decide they should cheer for a heel. A great example would be Kurt Angle. He has made a good serious heel, comedic heel, weasel heel, or even bada** heel. However, his statments such "I'm the best wrestler alive today!" and putting 110% in matches, ACTUALLY having great matches, and carrying people he shouldn't, figuratively and literally (Mark Henry), he's earned the respect of the fans. It's hard to overcome that.

[Bigpapa42]

[QUOTE=D-Lyrium;683288]The main event and following angle, as awesome as they were once I'd read it all, was a bit confusing to start with, in terms of fan reaction. As a fan, Bruce comes into this match as a babyface, for the sole reason that he's just returned after a long time away and is now fighting Rich Money for the SWF title. Eric Eisen is a massive heel. Because he's an Eisen. But I don't think that's enough to make Bruce a heel by association - Eisen's still a general manager, he still needs to provide interesting matches for the fans. So Bruce, to my mind, was a babyface going in. But 'officially' he was a heel. I get why *now* (because debuting as a face and turning heel on the very next show wouldn't be a fantastic idea). Rich Money is obviously also a massive heel. So we had a heel acting like a babyface, screwing over an annoying, weasely over-confident heel by conspiring with another heel to screw up all the weasel's plans. I'm not so sure I'd have been booing that all that much. Sure, as a fan we got screwed out of (another) legitimate main event, but in the end it's Eric Eisen that's suffered most. It also means, of course, that the last... what, twenty minutes? Fifteen at least, were taken up by a load of heels all screwing each other over. Not so keen, to be honest. Then, earlier, we had Randy Bumfhole (no idea what affiliation Generation Supreme are any more... I'm assuming none of them have actually turned, so they're mostly heels except the Keith boys and Los Diablos?) telling us that they want respect and top spots on the card, but he's pissed off and it's so unfair because Jay Chord is getting exactly what they asked for? Maaan, Supreme is confusing. Can't wait for nice, simple, Legends. :p It appears I'm the one the product analysis is talking about when it says 'some fans won't 'get' subtle gimmicks'. ¬_¬[/QUOTE] Yeah, the face-heel aspect is something I've been mulling over quite a bit of late. With the Money-Bruce deal, I can definitely see the confusion. I had considered turning Eric Eisen face in the prior weeks, partly for that reason. Held off as I think he works better as a heel, given his personality and manipulative nature. The crowd reaction had little to do with Eric Eisen, I think. It had to do with the fans themselves. They felt screwed. They are tired of Money and him being so damned good. It wasn't about seeing the GM get one over on Money so much as seeing someone get one over on him. Regardless of who they thought brought BTG back or even the timing of his arrival, it would come down to the fact that they thought someone was ending the reign of Rich Money. Sure, there would be some small segment of fans who would be loving Rich Money the heel (though not a large segment, as I think CV fans are not quite the same as real world fans), but most hate him. If you look at all the things he's done since becoming world champion, he's proven to be manipulative, massively arrogant, and perhaps worst of all, truthful about most of it. Its one thing to have a typical cowardly heel, but another entirely to have someone who backs up pretty much everything he claims. I just feel that by this point, most fans would be desperate to see Money punished (essentially) for his actions through the past six months. During the match, they were allowed to truly believe that it was going to happen. Then Money turns it and wins, unlikely as it would be. Hope turns to disappointment. Then when Bruce and Money reveal that it was just a work, disappointment turns to anger. As for the Generation Supreme guys, so below... [QUOTE=James Casey;683299]I suspect that this was just a meta-acknowledgement that Jay will be Gen-S's designated bottom feeder. Need a man to job to Giant Tana? Jay. Need a man to throw custard pies at? Jay. Need a man to do publicity at the Rainbow Bar & Grill? You get the idea. I must admit, having the heels at war with one another, and the faces allied with the heels... It can be confusing. Like you say, Legends is simple in comparison. It's great that '08 allows that kind of brand distinction. I guess 'The Nuke' failed as a gimmick, huh? I can't wait to run an SWF diary myself, as I'm looking forward to using Nuke as a character. Not a wrestler, of course. Just a character...[/QUOTE] Well, it was a bit of a wink-nod acknowledgment about Chord. But moreso, its about equal treatment. The "kids" would understand that they aren't all as talented as each other, and part of being treated respected and treated equal is being put in matches where they have a chance to win. So while Chord-McFly might be the secondary main event, its a match where Chord has very little chance to win and is not expected to. What they want to see is talent-vs-talent. So McFly against DuBois or one of the Bumfholes. To use an MMA example, it would be like putting some 2-0 kid right off the Ultimate Fighter show against Anderson Silva. As for the alignment of the Generation Supreme kids, they are all pretty much what they were when they started. So Bumfholes are still face, along with Devine, Team Neptune, the Keiths, and Los Dibalos. I mulled quite a lot over whether the storyline should have the whole of Generation Supreme aligned the same. While it might make things easier to follow in some ways, it just didn't make sense to me. I can't see the Bumfholes turning into cheating heels just for formalizing Generation Supreme, or DuBois losing the arrogant attitude and cheating ways because of it. So at this point, its a mixed stable of heels and faces. At least for now. Regarding The Nuke, the character isn't gone. I just realized that he wasn't going to do a ton as a singles wrestler right now. So putting in him in a tag team doubles his use. Might not be a full time team, but it gives Nuclear more chance to be on TV. [QUOTE=jesseewiak;683303]SHADES OF GREY~ Actually honesty, in real life, Money would be probably getting Orton-like mixed face-ish pops right now. At least when he's not facing McFly or Faith.[/QUOTE] Yeah, its part of what it comes down to. Which is funny, because I'm really not a huge fan of tweener roles.

[Self]

With the Heel/Face thing, I find it best to let the readers decide. IF you keep writing that the fans are cheering a character the readers don't like, you risk getting John Cena, or even X-Pac style responses. Sadly, the way diary responses have evolved seems more focussed on "Try to guess what I'm going to write next" as opposed to genuine gut-responses. It's no one's fault, just a bit of a shame. For example, Brucie's debut got a bit of heat for messing up the big PPV Main Event. I would have therefore either went with the idea that he's a Heel OR made a concerted effort to have him do cool and likeable things after that... Actually, is he even a Babyface? Sorry, I haven't caught up since the PPV. :o

[ampulator]

[QUOTE=Self;683380]With the Heel/Face thing, I find it best to let the readers decide. IF you keep writing that the fans are cheering a character the readers don't like, you risk getting John Cena, or even X-Pac style responses. Sadly, the way diary responses have evolved seems more focussed on "Try to guess what I'm going to write next" as opposed to genuine gut-responses. It's no one's fault, just a bit of a shame. For example, Brucie's debut got a bit of heat for messing up the big PPV Main Event. I would have therefore either went with the idea that he's a Heel OR made a concerted effort to have him do cool and likeable things after that... Actually, is he even a Babyface? Sorry, I haven't caught up since the PPV. :o[/QUOTE] Nah, he's a heel, he WAS written AS a face at the PPV, but became "officially" a heel when he jobbed out to Rich Money. In any case, as for Cena-like responses, the problem isn't really him, it's the WWE. They made him into this wussy character that no one likes. Heck, even the 80's Hulk Hogan was less kid-friendly than Cena was now. He kisses babies, hugs children, shakes the hand of women... it's not what fans paid to see. They want to see a**-kicking wrestling, something Cena was capable of doing, until the put the "Governor" on him. The thing about Randy Orton is, as a heel, he has more free reign. I don't know about you, but him RKOing Stephanie McMahon is not something I would boo. This is something that, unfortunately, Cena can no longer do, because WWE has gone "PG". I still remember the days of Stone Cold vs. Vince McMahon. Looking back at it, it wasn't always clear cut on who's right and wrong. But it was great entertainment. That's what WWE is missing these days.

[Bigpapa42]

[FONT=Arial][CENTER][SIZE=6]SWF.com: What Next, Generations?[/SIZE] [IMG]http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k235/Bigpapa42_2006/Wrestling/Belts/SWF/SWFGenerationsChampionship.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER] [quote][B][CENTER]Wednesday, Week 3, December 2008[/CENTER] [/B] What will become of the SWF Generations championship? The title has been officially vacated, after Ace Newton predictably decided to give up that belt rather than the SWF North American championship last night on Supreme TV. The decision was forced by the fact that the Supreme Wrestling Federation Charter does not allow a singles worker to hold two titles at once. Where does that leave the Generations Championship? It was introduced after the brand split as a lower-level title for the Supreme brand, intended to give the youngsters of the brand something to realistically compete for. Initially won by Ace Newton, he lost it to Robbie Retro before claiming it back months later. The title is intended for younger workers, which is age 26 and under. According to SWF sources, there are a number of possibilities being looked at. Holding some type of tournament or battle royal for the vacant belt is seen as a viable option. The belt still has some value, especially seeing that Newton was able to parlay a reign with the Generations belt directly into winning the SWF North American belt, the second highest belt on the Supreme brand. While some of the younger talent on the brand - notably Marc DuBois, both Bumfhole brothers, Darryl Devine, Antonio Marquez and obviously Remo - are unlikely to be interested in the belt, there are many who would. Another possibility is apparently retiring the belt, at least for now. This would create a problem, as the Supreme brand would be left with only two singles belts, unbalanced with the Legends brand which has three. Regardless of what decision is made by Interim General Manager Eric Eisen, an announcement should be made within the next couple of weeks. [/quote][CENTER][IMG]http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k235/Bigpapa42_2006/Wrestling/Media/SWFWebMid.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER] [/FONT]

[Bigpapa42]

[QUOTE=Self;683380]With the Heel/Face thing, I find it best to let the readers decide. IF you keep writing that the fans are cheering a character the readers don't like, you risk getting John Cena, or even X-Pac style responses. Sadly, the way diary responses have evolved seems more focussed on "Try to guess what I'm going to write next" as opposed to genuine gut-responses. It's no one's fault, just a bit of a shame. For example, Brucie's debut got a bit of heat for messing up the big PPV Main Event. I would have therefore either went with the idea that he's a Heel OR made a concerted effort to have him do cool and likeable things after that... Actually, is he even a Babyface? Sorry, I haven't caught up since the PPV. :o[/QUOTE] I agree. But only to an extent. I think you have to adapt to the readers, but not without consideration. If you keep pushing a character that the readers clearly don't like, its going to turn off readers. Which might to lead to them not being readers any more. Obviously not a good thing. At the same time, if you have a character that is getting over with the readers as a heel, turning them face because of it might be a good idea. Or a bad one. You need to consider what aspect of that character the readers are latching on to, because if turning them face (or vice versa) causes them to lose that aspect, its a bad move. The Bruce-Money-Eisen thing is a bit messy, as I mentioned. I figured Bruce would get some heat - from fans and readers - for his introduction. Yet some babyface response for targeting Money. Which was setting up what happened on Supreme TV. I try to balance things between the stories I want to tell and how the readers react. I adjust, but I don't want to constantly make wholesale changes based on one or two readers reacting. As for catching up, I realize how tough it can be to keep up to date on a number of diaries. Just happy to have so many outstanding writers reading and commenting. [QUOTE=ampulator;683386]Nah, he's a heel, he WAS written AS a face at the PPV, but became "officially" a heel when he jobbed out to Rich Money. In any case, as for Cena-like responses, the problem isn't really him, it's the WWE. They made him into this wussy character that no one likes. Heck, even the 80's Hulk Hogan was less kid-friendly than Cena was now. He kisses babies, hugs children, shakes the hand of women... it's not what fans paid to see. They want to see a**-kicking wrestling, something Cena was capable of doing, until the put the "Governor" on him. The thing about Randy Orton is, as a heel, he has more free reign. I don't know about you, but him RKOing Stephanie McMahon is not something I would boo. This is something that, unfortunately, Cena can no longer do, because WWE has gone "PG". I still remember the days of Stone Cold vs. Vince McMahon. Looking back at it, it wasn't always clear cut on who's right and wrong. But it was great entertainment. That's what WWE is missing these days.[/QUOTE] I agree that the problem is simply that Cena is bland and boring at this point. I don't think its that he's incapable of more, but that the E doesn't want more. They want him to do the same thing over and over and over, because the kids love it. They cheer him and buy his merchandise. Just because a lot of the older fans are bored as hell by his character at this point, it doesn't change that. Much the same with Triple H, I think. The E is booking them based on financial considerations instead of good entertainment or even good wrestling booking.

[ampulator]

Correction: Short term financial considerations. Eventually, these "kids" are going to be tired of him as well, and then Vince is going to screw himself (once again). As for Triple H, it's not exactly financial considerations, but...

[Self]

Cena isn't the best example of what I was trying to say. I think... remember when Santino first got with Maria? He was a plucky babyface then, and I'm assuming WWE thought having a hot girl with him would make him more popular. Instead fans turned on him, so Santino went heel. I could be wrong, and it could have been an awesome plan on WWE's part, but it struck me as WWE missing the mark on something, and adapting accordingly. Maybe that's why Ziggler is with Maria now. Lesson learned. Play on fan's jealousy. Anyway, I've seen it a few times in diaries. Writers introduce characters as Babyfaces, because they have great Babyface rating and they get a great babyface gimmick rating, but in the actual diary, the promos, the matches, they come off as annoying and jeer-worthy. I could give examples, but it seems cruel. ... and the other way around. I've utterly marked out for several intended Heels. There was a Grand Master Phunk characterisation I thought was awesomely cool, and was shocked to find out he was supposed to be boo'ed. Ultimately it's about learning lessons. I've had a couple of things misfire in my diary. Of course, some of these could have been writers toying with the reader's expectations of emotions, or teasing turns, or screwing with our heads. That's cool too. Ah hijacking BigPapa's thread... didn't we used to have a diary discussion thread? Should find that again and get ranting.

[MVP]

Damn excellent show, and I never saw that final twist coming. I hope that you can keep churning out these incredible stories, as you're definitely one of the greats. I think maintaining the mixed alignments of the members of the Gen S stable actually makes a lot of sense, since the whole reason they've joined up is due to their young age, due to their shared beliefs that they're the future of the business, true, that sound a bit heelish, some young punks trying to gain the spotlight, but each have different personalities and will surely have trouble co-existing (just me speculating here though) but on the long run they just want what's rightfully theirs.

[Bigpapa42]

[QUOTE=Self;683414]Cena isn't the best example of what I was trying to say. I think... remember when Santino first got with Maria? He was a plucky babyface then, and I'm assuming WWE thought having a hot girl with him would make him more popular. Instead fans turned on him, so Santino went heel. I could be wrong, and it could have been an awesome plan on WWE's part, but it struck me as WWE missing the mark on something, and adapting accordingly. Maybe that's why Ziggler is with Maria now. Lesson learned. Play on fan's jealousy. Anyway, I've seen it a few times in diaries. Writers introduce characters as Babyfaces, because they have great Babyface rating and they get a great babyface gimmick rating, but in the actual diary, the promos, the matches, they come off as annoying and jeer-worthy. I could give examples, but it seems cruel. ... and the other way around. I've utterly marked out for several intended Heels. There was a Grand Master Phunk characterisation I thought was awesomely cool, and was shocked to find out he was supposed to be boo'ed. Ultimately it's about learning lessons. I've had a couple of things misfire in my diary. Of course, some of these could have been writers toying with the reader's expectations of emotions, or teasing turns, or screwing with our heads. That's cool too. Ah hijacking BigPapa's thread... didn't we used to have a diary discussion thread? Should find that again and get ranting.[/QUOTE] Ah, see that makes a lot more sense now. Good booking is reacting to obvious fan feedback, whether in real life or in a diary. When it comes to writers presenting characters in a manner different from how the reader perceives them, I have to wonder if they are aware? If no one lets them know, they might never realize. Quite honestly, if any of my characterizations fit that, I would definitely like to know, whether in the diary thread or in a PM. Positive feedback is great, but negative feedback (done in a positive manner, preferrably) helps just as much, I think. I've never had an issue with a bit of off-topic discussion in here, so long as relates in some way back to the diary. [QUOTE=MVP!;683419]Damn excellent show, and I never saw that final twist coming. I hope that you can keep churning out these incredible stories, as you're definitely one of the greats. I think maintaining the mixed alignments of the members of the Gen S stable actually makes a lot of sense, since the whole reason they've joined up is due to their young age, due to their shared beliefs that they're the future of the business, true, that sound a bit heelish, some young punks trying to gain the spotlight, but each have different personalities and will surely have trouble co-existing (just me speculating here though) but on the long run they just want what's rightfully theirs.[/QUOTE] Thanks, that's always awesome to hear. I still think I have some work to do before I make it amongst the legendary names on here, but I appreciate the sentiment. As for the Generation Supreme, I'm glad to hear (read) others see it the same way. I just can't see all these diverse individuals suddenly uniting in common thought just because they have united in their goals. I definitely intend to use the different personalities to show that they have different approaches, which causes some tension. Just as the established stars all have the same basic goal - protect their spot at the top - but they will go about it differently, which different justification for why. Edit - also meant to mention that I find it interesting that the top of the Gen-S face/heel alignment came up through the readers, as it was actually one of the OCC things I wanted to address. I was planning a post about it, explaining the face/heel combo, sometime in the next few days. Now I don't have to. Thanks!

[ampulator]

The problem with WWE is Vince McMahon no longer cares. He's tired of it. He's phoning it in. I really feel sorry for John Cena. He can't stop what he's doing it because that's what the boss told him to do. He got big in WWE, and he pretty knows only WWE. He doesn't where else to go. If WWE were to fire him, would a lot of indies want him? I have doubts. Even if he knows what's he's doing is not good for his career in long-term, it's the only thing he knows that's working RIGHT NOW, and it's what the boss wants. He doesn't have a choice. He's basically forced to be a walking billboard for merchandise, not aloud wrestle more intense, more edgy, or better. He's got to walk out, with his basecap of the month, with the T-Shirt, with his pumpable shoes, and while at it, he's going to be booed by every young adult for being a shill. He kisses babies, he hugs children, he shakes the hand of woman... it feels all so fake. It doesn't feel genuine. It looks like he's doing it just of doing it, rather genuinely being a good guy. I still remember when Kurt Angle vs. John Cena. Kurt Angle was supposedly the heel. But every time, EVERY TIME, people would cheer for Angle. Kurt is a very good heel, but even he could do so much against something so... unreal. Even against Randy Orton, Edge, Triple H, Cena manages to suck the heel heat from them. That's something, because they are HEELS in the capital sense. Fans don't cheer for them, but they just seem to die. That's even worse than with Kurt Angle, because at least fans react. I'm not sure how long this can go on before Vince tires of Cena. And I'll say it again - I feel sorry for John Cena.

[Bigpapa42]

[QUOTE=BHK1978;683668][B]Bigpapa42[/B], I have to say I have not played TEW08 for a couple of months (to busy with WMMA2) but reading your mod (and others but mostly your mod) has got me playing again. And of course I play as the SWF and that is because of your diary. So before I come off sounding anymore corny I will just say thanks. Also, I love your reader interaction to me that makes it a better read because you will take the time to explain what you did and why you did it.[/QUOTE] That's pretty awesome to hear (uh, read...). A damned big compliment. Thanks. And glad you like the explanations - not sure everyone does, but no one really complains, so... [QUOTE=ampulator;683676]The problem with WWE is Vince McMahon no longer cares. He's tired of it. He's phoning it in. I really feel sorry for John Cena. He can't stop what he's doing it because that's what the boss told him to do. He got big in WWE, and he pretty knows only WWE. He doesn't where else to go. If WWE were to fire him, would a lot of indies want him? I have doubts. Even if he knows what's he's doing is not good for his career in long-term, it's the only thing he knows that's working RIGHT NOW, and it's what the boss wants. He doesn't have a choice. He's basically forced to be a walking billboard for merchandise, not aloud wrestle more intense, more edgy, or better. He's got to walk out, with his basecap of the month, with the T-Shirt, with his pumpable shoes, and while at it, he's going to be booed by every young adult for being a shill. He kisses babies, he hugs children, he shakes the hand of woman... it feels all so fake. It doesn't feel genuine. It looks like he's doing it just of doing it, rather genuinely being a good guy. I still remember when Kurt Angle vs. John Cena. Kurt Angle was supposedly the heel. But every time, EVERY TIME, people would cheer for Angle. Kurt is a very good heel, but even he could do so much against something so... unreal. Even against Randy Orton, Edge, Triple H, Cena manages to suck the heel heat from them. That's something, because they are HEELS in the capital sense. Fans don't cheer for them, but they just seem to die. That's even worse than with Kurt Angle, because at least fans react. I'm not sure how long this can go on before Vince tires of Cena. And I'll say it again - I feel sorry for John Cena.[/QUOTE] I don't think its that Vince no longer cares. Simply for the fact that he still hasn't given up any control. From what I've read, everything still has to go through him. If he has simply stopped giving a damn, I think he would step back a bit. Maybe not walk away completely, but at least give over some control. I think its a combination of trying to target the younger audience, without regard for whether the older audience still cares, and getting away from what worked for so long for the business. As for Cena, he's not a guy I particularly like but I do respect in a lot of ways. Sympathy is not something that comes to mind when I think about him, though. I still think he loves what he's doing and is living his dream, plus getting pretty wealthy doing it. I always get the impression that he really enjoys it all. I do agree that a character change could do tons for the guy, but I don't see it happening. Wouldn't be surprised if he ends up trying to go with the way of The Rock (I know he's criticized The Rock for it, too...). I could type a whole lot about what I think is wrong with the E at this point and what I wish they would change... but I'll leave that for elsewhere...

[ampulator]

I can't say I think Cena loves what he does. I think he loves parts of it, but he hates other parts. I'm also certain he realizes he needs to change, even though he isn't allowed to do so. I remember when Triple H cut a promo on him - it was brutal. It said what every young adult male was thinking. If he had been anyone else, they would have turned into a huge face with the fans. I also remember spots where he throw his shirt into the crowd, and the crowd would just throw it right back at him. It's not going to get any better for him, either. As the fanbase shrinks, what's left is the people that really buy tickets day-in and day-out. As for Vince not giving up control, that's correct, but I believe it's possible to remain entirely control and still not care. He's basically giving no one else power, but he's not necessarily using his power to the best means. It's possible to be in complete control and still phone it in. Vince, quite frankly, is sick of wrestling. He has always wanted to branch, but couldn't. His non-wresting ventures, quite frankly, aren't that good or even memorable. And that pisses him off, that he can't seem to expand. As for targeting the younger audience, it no longer works. '90's wrestling has made it that wrestling, including MAINSTREAM wrestling, is a young male adult product. When parents think of wrestling, they don't see a family-friendly product, even if he makes it family friendly. Parents don't want them watching wrestling, and young male adults don't want the product to cater to them. Both of them seem to agree on this point. As Paul Heyman said, "Why go there? Accentuate the positives, Hide the Negatives." The days of a younger audience is over. Wrestling, one of its cores, is about one guy beating another guy. That's hardly family friendly. As for the Rock, he did everything he could have in wrestling. He went on top. Despite what is said, WWE no longer needed him, and he no longer needed WWE. It was time for both to move on. There was little more he could have done. As for how this relates to your diary... I think WWE could learn. A lot. From you.

[Sean Thomas Jolly]

Can I make the point Ampulator just got the 1500th post, I just got the 1500th reply and were on the 101st page. Huge acomplishment Papa :D

[James Casey]

Yep, congrats BP. Doesn't seem more than a couple of weeks ago that you broke 1000 :p