Is England the Spurs of International football?

[Capelli King]

England is one of those teams which always are contenders, have a great support, fans and are always a team which everyone expect to do well or at least compete, but to say the truth (and this is coming from an England fan) we are underachievers. What has England ever won as a nation? Emm........nothing apart from one World Cup back in 1966, that world cup win was one of the most controversial in history, we have never won a Euro, in fact we have only ever got to the semis of either tournament 3 times (once was in 1996, again in England and the other 2 being 1990 and 1968).

 

But like with Spurs i am somewhat positives about our prospects this time, England easily qualified to the World cup and unlike lets say the 80s or 90s when English football was struggling, now English teams and the Premiership is probably the best in the world, i think an English team has been in the final for the last 5 years in a row.

 

The actual squad is full of world class players, all or most in their prime and what is best i think that teams like Argentina, Brazil, Germany are all on a down in comparison to lets say 10 years back. Apart from maybe Spain i cannot say i like anyone else more than England now, so what the rest think? Is it finally the time that England wins the world cup?

[Hyde Hill]

Sorry but no is not going to happen England national squad always overrates itself, you have one really good player (Gerrard) and the rest are specialists/Overrated. You will get thorugh the group stage but Semi Final is the most you guys will be able to hope for.You have an outsiders chance of course but you are definitly NOT one of the favorites.The reason the premiership is one of or the best league atm is NOT because of the English players its because of the money and all the foreign players and managers.

 

As for the qualifying stage there is no way you can learn anything from that as you where in a cookie cutter group.

 

As far as other countries go I would rate higher in no particular order: Spain, Portugal, Italie, Germany, France, Netherlands, Brazil and Argentina.

 

That said you guys do have a chance as with any tournement it is mainly dependent on the brackets/ Form of the day/ growing into the tournement.

[Slim Jim]

Gerrard goes missing a LOT when playing for England, especially when paired with Lampard in midfield. Neither can play to their full potential if they are the two centre midfielders; whether or not they both play, a holding player is essential. That also helps out the attacking full backs we currently have.

 

As for "one really good player". Wayne Rooney is far better for England than Steven Gerrard. He's had a bit of a hampered international career with injuries and such but when he's been playing regularly, he's incredible. For example, every game he's played this season for England, and the end of the last.

 

The most overrated area of the team is the centrebacks. John Terry and Rio Ferdinand are very good but overrated. Add to that the fact that we don't currently have anything close to resembling a World Class goalkeeper, and it worries me. If Terry and Rio can stay fit for the rest of the season, something which seems very unlikely, they can be good enough to cope with most strikers but without regular matches and that fitness, Rio in particular suffers. Just look at his performance in last year's Champion's League final, and his returns this season. Terry is just too slow for my liking, and prone to bouts of meat-headedness.

 

Johnson and Cole are not defenders; they keep being called attacking fullbacks which is essentially wingbacks, which makes it absolutely vital to play a top quality holding midfielder. That is not Gareth Barry. If he wasn't always injured, it would be Owen Hargreaves and still could be.

 

I've already talked about the centre midfield but I'd like to see Gerrard/Lampard played with Carrick, with a true holding player behind them. It leaves Gerrard/Lampard more freedom to go forward, playing off Wayne Rooney, and a fantastic passer of the ball in Carrick going box-to-box, and a defensive player to give them that freedom. If he gets his fitness up at Milan, I'd love to see Beckham tried in that role for Carrick; his passing is still untouchable for England, and his impact just by being in the team is incredible.

 

The wings are tricky. I don't think Beckham can play wide right against the majority of top class international fullbacks. Aaron Lennon this season has been phenomenal. He's made mincemeat of every left back put in front of him, picked up a load of assists and a couple of goals to boot. Really come of age this season and is so much better than Wright-Phillips. When he's back playing regularly, I'd like to see if Walcott has done much the same because he's always had more promise. On the left, Joe Cole has suffered with injury and I'm not a huge fan; Ashley Young is always overlooked by Capello, despite having a superb number of assists for Villa. James Milner, though, is looking better and better. His brief cameo on Wednesday, alright only against Belarus and as a wingback, was great.

 

Up front, if we play the 4-5-1 system Capello has used a lot, it has to be Wayne Rooney, playing up against the defensive line and not dropping back as he likes to. He is so far ahead of the next best striker, it's unbelievable. If we play 4-4-2, I cannot look past Peter Crouch. Yes people will say his goal scoring record is only against weaker teams but he's still scoring those goals! Heskey isn't. Cole isn't. If not Crouch, then Defoe or Bent, both are doing well this season. I'd love to see Owen get a good run of games for Man Utd and get back involved but it looks unlikely right now. Hopefully I'm wrong and he does force himself back in. Agbonlahor should be nowhere near the England team, he's just pace, really, really not a fan.

 

Overall, England don't look strong enough but then it doesn't always come down to that. I know it was only the Euros, but look at Greece in 04. And the France team that won WC '98 was not better on paper than Brazil or Holland, even with Zidane. Hell, England in '66 didn't look that good on paper. So we could do it. But we probably won't.

 

Spain just look ridiculously good at the moment but they showed against USA, they struggle with physical teams. One of the better African teams, like Ivory Coast, who are technical and powerful could really cause them problems if their manager sets them up right, in my opinion. Much like Senegal against France in 2002.

 

Holland still play unbelievable football and I LOVE them but their defence isn't great. Their total football style gives them more well-rounded defenders who can be exposed defensively by the best attacks.

 

Italy, too old now but always a threat as World Champions, especially if they actually give their new talent a chance because some of them are great. If not, they'll fall in the Quarters at the latest, I think.

 

France, Portugal and Argentina? On a par with England? Not at the moment. Two haven't qualified and Argentina struggled. Portugal rely on Ronaldo far too much; yes they have Moutinho, Veloso, Pepe, and others but they are about as much as a one-man team as you can get at this level. Far more so than England. France, on paper they look very, very good so I can only really put their poor form down to bad management or bad luck. If they get that sorted, come the summer, they'll be right back up there and probably a good outside bet to win but that's a pretty huge IF. And then Argentina. Sack Maradona, get a real manager, win the World Cup. They can be like a mix between Brazil and Spain, and that's scary.

 

Brazil; phenomenal as usual. However, their defence can be a little too gung ho at times and that could cost them.

 

Germany struggled to qualify and only snuck top right at the end of qualifying. They play a very different style of football to most of the top teams though, and that almost always serves them very well. I'd say England are best equipped to beat Germany out of the other top teams but they will be in with a good chance.

 

And then there's the weather and conditions. It'll be winter in South Africa, the predicted weather conditions will suit England moreso than Spain or Brazil or Argentina. That should not be underestimated.

 

So to sum up... I think Spain should win but should they come unstuck against a physical side or through overconfidence, then Brazil. After those two, it'll come down to which team really rises to the occasion because on paper England, Holland, France, Germany and Argentina are all very close. Italy will need to make changes to their ethos to win, in my opinion. I'll be bold and rule out Portugal as contenders. Controversial, given how often they've kicked our arse in the past few years.

[Nedew]

Yeah, what Slim Jim said. I find it farcical that the top scorer in European qualifying (Rooney) doesn't count as a 'good player' in Hyde's eyes.

[Hive]

Pretty good analysis, Slim Jim. I'm not in full agreement, but interesting read.

 

I'd be shocked beyond words if England wins the World Cup, or even hits a final spot. Yes, they have been good in the qualification... but so has Slovakia and Paraguay, anyone here believe they'll be winning...? Qualification is one thing, the actual tournament is another.

 

England has an overall good team, but they are too weak in goal and up front, and could definately use more quality and creativity in wings as well. Their best striker is Wayne Rooney, who is definately a world class player - but not really the target man they need... and if he's injured, who'll take over for him? Crouch? Heskey? Bent? Cole? Unlikely... your second-best striker is Owen, and that guy's legs are made of glass. It's also, as has been pointed out, a huge problem that their two single best players, Gerrard and Lampard, can't really play together at the same time... reminds me of the Dutch van Nistelrooy/Kluivert "curse" they once had going on. I do think, however, that the defense is pretty damn strong if not hit by injuries.

 

It is, of course, to the luck of teams like England that otherwise strong nations like France (if they even qualify!) and Argentina aren't playing up to their full potential due to grossly incompetent managers. If those two teams win anything next year, it will be in spite of their managers - not because of them... which is a shame, since both teams are loaded with unbelievable talent. Portugal is as well, to a lesser degree, and I'm having a hard time understanding how they can play so piss poorly. Though they seem to have picked up a bit through their last two matches.

 

The clear favourites, as it stands, should be Spain and to a lesser degree Brazil. Germany and Italy will get far as well, as they damn near always does, but I don't see either winning it. Especially not Italy, whose best players have gotten too old without any of their younger alternatives being quite there yet.

 

As outsiders, we have teams like The Netherlands, who has a great offensive, and Russia (if they qualify, which they should), who has an overall pretty strong team.

 

Teams like Chile, Ghana, Ivory Coast, Mexico and USA all have potential to put sand in the machinery for some of the favourites - but I don't see any of them lifting the cup.

[wilts]

To be honest, I am generally quite pesimistic about the national team because every time there is even a hint of them winning a game the press jump on the fact that we are going to win the world cup.

 

However, I think it is evident for all to see that Capello has worked wonders with the squad and I think if he would implement an change for at least 2 of the 4 friendlies to try a new system then they stand a good chance.

 

Personally I would go with a 4-5-1 formation with the following;

GK: Green

RB: Johnson

LB: A. Cole

CB: Terry

CB: Ferdinand/Upson/Lescott

DM: Carrick/Hargreaves

CM: Lampard

LW: J. Cole

RW: Lennon

AM: Gerrard

ST: Rooney

 

I would say that you need both Gerrard and Lampard in the team, but can't do that with them alongside each other and without a holding mid. It is also criminal to play Gerrard on the wing, and as we don't have a quality partner for Rooney I think this formation could work well.

 

Whatever happens, I am quite confident and think that there is a good chance this time around, but remember, no matter what the press may tell you they don't win the world cup until they pick up the trophy, not when they win their opening game.

[Hyde Hill]

I didn't say Roony wasn't a good player but he is not a world class player in my opinion. I could give you all the reasons why I think so but I don't think we would come to an agreement plus it would take to long hehe. Still England are in with a shout but are not a top contender in my eyes. And like wilts said the English press and their fans always over estimate their chances and capabilities which often is a part of the downfall.

[Nedew]

I didn't say Roony wasn't a good player

 

Yes you did.

 

you have one really good player (Gerrard)

 

If Gerrard is the only good one, that implies the others aren't good.

 

I could give you all the reasons why I think so but I don't think we would come to an agreement

 

It's an internet forum, anyone's argument is unlikely to be persuasive unless it's Remi's.

 

Still England are in with a shout but are not a top contender in my eyes. And like wilts said the English press and their fans always over estimate their chances and capabilities which often is a part of the downfall.

 

This much is true.

 

However, we may not be top contenders, but of your list of countries more likely to win than us, we would obliterate Portugal with Capello - Queiroz is their McClaren. France don't have much of a manager either, we would certainly have a good chance of bettering them. Logic says we should beat Italy, but then logic doesn't really apply with them involved (remember how close Australia came to knocking them out of the last World Cup - which they went on to win!). I'd say it'd be 50/50 vs. The Netherlands, Argentina are also members of the dodgy managers club.

 

Brazil, Germany and of course Spain are better than us. That's still a semi-final spot for us then, and i'd certainly be delighted with that.

[Hive]

Brazil, Germany and of course Spain are better than us. That's still a semi-final spot for us then, and i'd certainly be delighted with that.

 

That's no certainty. You could draw either of those teams and get knocked out in the second round, if unlucky. Luck is often a major part of such cups...

[Nedew]

That's no certainty. You could draw either of those teams and get knocked out in the second round, if unlucky. Luck is often a major part of such cups...

 

I know it's not certain, and for all we know Bosnia might turn up and play their balls of and get an upset against us - my point was that on paper, we're in the top 4 teams and therefore could reach the semi-finals for once. That's a vast improvement over times past, and i loved Sven (though hated McClaren, as we all did really).

 

Football may not be played on paper, but the written side certainly comes into play at some point.

[wilts]

i loved Sven (though hated McClaren, as we all did really).

 

I hated Sven, and also hated McClaren, but actually really like Capello as I am sure everyone does.

[Hyde Hill]

Note the distinction between really good player eg worldclass and good player. Rooney is great at what he does but he is just to onedimensional imho and hasn't really proven he can perform consistantly at the very highest level. He just gets so much attention etc because he is Englands best striker. If he rounds out his game more he has potential to become world class but he isn't there yet.

[Bigpapa42]

Interesting bit of history is that England chose to not participate in the first couple of World Cups, which they had a real chance of winning.

[Hyde Hill]

And how's the Canadian national team doing? lolz

[Bigpapa42]

And how's the Canadian national team doing? lolz

 

Producing decent quality players for other nations to enjoy (Owen Hargreaves, Asmir Begovic, Jonathan de Guzmán). I really don't blame them, however. The quality of the Canadian NT means its unlikely they will play in a WC anytime soon.

 

I actually support England for the most part, since Canada don't tend to qualify for big tournaments.

[Capelli King]

I think that England can play a formation without Lampard, he is already past his best in my view and if he cannot fit in with Gerrard, then bench him.

 

Rooney World class? hmm, do not think so, he is a pretty good attacker, but i would not put him in the top 10 strikers of the world, probably the best England has, i would maybe play him with Crouch, the problem with Crouch is that he does not play all that much with Spurs (although when he does he is very good). I think that Defoe is on fire, so even him with Rooney is a good solution.

 

I think England have problems in the holder position, i mean sure you can play Carrick or Barry\Hargreaves, but all of those have question marks as to their quality in comparison to the best in the world.

 

As everyone knows the Keeper position also, that said i am really liking Foster this year, he seems very stable and could be the solution.

 

Johnson is interesting at right back but i am not too confident he has the needed experience.

 

Also J.Cole on the left? Is he even playing for Chelsea? Nope, we need players which actually play for their teams and J.Cole is not one of those, obviously when fit he can do wonders, but i would probably play Young instead, really love that guy working the wing + with Lennon on the other wing + A.Cole and Johnson coming up front, i would say England has one of the best attacking options in the world when working the sides.

 

But most of all i rate Capello, i think it is the first time ever we have had a decent coach as manager (or at least first time in the last 20 years since Robson)

[Hyde Hill]

As far as coaches go and the way they had England playing I liked Venables during Euro '96 if you guys ever had a chance in the last 15 od years it was then.

[Nedew]

Rooney is great at what he does but he is just to onedimensional imho and hasn't really proven he can perform consistantly at the very highest level.

 

You've got to be kidding me. He's one of the main players in a team that won the Champion's League, and then was runner up the year after. He's scored double figures for his club in every season he's been there, twice venturing over 20, and consistently scores in Europe as part of this. He was the top scorer in European qualifying for the World Cup. Where is this 'highest level' that he's not performing consistently in?

 

As everyone knows the Keeper position also, that said i am really liking Foster this year, he seems very stable and could be the solution.

 

Stable!? Foster this season has been anything but stable, gaffes are making him looking like the David James of old - calamity has returned. He's relatively young though, he's got another 10-15 years as a goalkeeper to prove himself, though that's all that he's got going for himself right now.

 

Also J.Cole on the left? Is he even playing for Chelsea?

 

In fairness to him, he's been injured for about 16 months! When fit, he'll start regularly for Chelsea, and soon after that England will hopefully follow. I'm not sure where he'll fit in mind, especially as Gerrard is working wonders on the left under Capello.

[Hyde Hill]

His highest amount of goals has been 16 in the league and that was once and he played 36 matches. A world class striker at least runs at or around 1/2 consistently imho. He hasn't scored many goals in the champions league and when he has it was against lesser opponents. Being top scorer in the Euro qualifiers means nothing as it all depends on the group you are in etc. His number of assists is shockingly low. Like Capelli said he is Englands best striker but he is not a World Class striker he is a good striker in a very good team much like Andy Cole was. He just gets overhyped because he is England's best and the goals he does score sometimes look pretty spectacular.

[Capelli King]

........Rooney is not a World Class striker he is a good striker in a very good team much like Andy Cole was. He just gets overhyped because he is England's best and the goals he does score sometimes look pretty spectacular.

 

amen to that.

 

Nedew i meant that for a guy which i did not know his name 6 months ago, Foster is REALLY stable I did not expect this person to hold the Man U keeper spot, let alone England's, but yeah, he is not a world class keeper, just probably one of the best 3-4 England has at the moment (if not the best)

[SuperOwens]

amen to that.

 

Nedew i meant that for a guy which i did not know his name 6 months ago, Foster is REALLY stable I did not expect this person to hold the Man U keeper spot, let alone England's, but yeah, he is not a world class keeper, just probably one of the best 3-4 England has at the moment (if not the best)

 

He hasn't though has he.

 

He played because of injuries, screwed up a few times and then was replaced as soon as they rushed the Dutch giant back.

 

I think Rooney is world class. People are maybe looking at him in comparison to Torres, Villa et all. But he isn't that type of player. The guy is a work horse, he hates losing and busts a gut to get his team to win.

 

That's why you'll find him playing out wide, and creating space for others. You'll see him in midfield trying to pick up the ball and release it. Hell he played out on the wing for a lot of last year. Its no coincidence that Ronaldo was allowed to do what the hell he wanted at United, with Rooney in the team they didn't have to worry about him tracking back.

 

Put that with his flair, strength, pace and vision.

 

Is Tevez world class? If he is, then Rooney definitely is.

 

We still wont win it though

[Nedew]

His highest amount of goals has been 16 in the league and that was once and he played 36 matches. A world class striker at least runs at or around 1/2 consistently imho.

 

16 in 36, as opposed to your expectation of scoring in 50% of his games, is scoring in 45% of his games. Oh no, that's miles off

 

The season after that he scored in 40% of his league games, after that 45%, and after that 40% again. Those are not the stats of a man who can't score, especially when as SuperOwens mentioned he was expected to track back in place of Ronaldo.

 

He hasn't scored many goals in the champions league

 

It's statistics time again

 

25%, 35%, 37% and 31% is his Champion's League record of goals-to-games. Awful record as you can see

 

and when he has it was against lesser opponents.

 

If scoring the majority of your goals against lesser opposition makes you less of a player, Ronaldo (again, the greasy one) must be awful. Besides, you play more games against worse teams as it is, there can't be more great teams than bad teams or football would be lopsided.

 

Being top scorer in the Euro qualifiers means nothing as it all depends on the group you are in etc.

 

I'd hardly say Croatia, Ukraine and Belarus were bad teams, especially considering Croatia were ranked above us until very recently and Ukraine aren't miles behind either. And as Belarus showed the other week, they're not slouches either.

 

His number of assists is shockingly low.

 

I'd say the entire notion of assists is fundamentally flawed, considering you can run 80 yards with the ball, dribbling past 5 players on the way, but if the person you set-up when you get there chooses to pass rather than shoot you get no credit for it.

 

Like Capelli said he is Englands best striker but he is not a World Class striker he is a good striker in a very good team much like Andy Cole was.

 

Say what you will about Andy Cole, but he's still the 2nd highest scorer in Premier League history, and not all 187 of those goals were with Man Utd. In fact, cracking out your beloved statistics again, just under 50% of them were - not to mention his best season (34 goals) was with Newcastle.

 

He just gets overhyped because he is England's best

 

You could say the same thing for any country's best player. Regardless, i'd say holding down, excelling in, and being acknowledged as a key part in the Man Utd first team, a team which i both f*cking detest and acknowledge as one of the best in Europe, secures his place as world class.

[Hyde Hill]

We will just agree to disagree then on Rooney a well. I can bust out more stats etc and interpret them etc but it won't matter. I will agree he is on the cusp of being world class but he is not there yet.

[Capelli King]

You could say the same thing for any country's best player. Regardless, i'd say holding down, excelling in, and being acknowledged as a key part in the Man Utd first team, a team which i both f*cking detest and acknowledge as one of the best in Europe, secures his place as world class.

 

lol, i still do not think he is world class, like 90% of all England players he is also overrated, he is a very good player, but no way world class. Then again depends on which game you are playing, in some games world class is not on the top, Hall off fame is:p

[Nedew]

We will just agree to disagree then on Rooney a well. I can bust out more stats etc and interpret them etc but it won't matter. I will agree he is on the cusp of being world class but he is not there yet.

 

Fair enough, agree to disagree.

 

lol, i still do not think he is world class, like 90% of all England players he is also overrated, he is a very good player, but no way world class. Then again depends on which game you are playing, in some games world class is not on the top, Hall off fame is:p

 

I think there's a similar effect of people going "oooh, english players are overrated, therefore... all english players are inferior to spanish/italian/whatever players!". Plenty of people will assume that a Brazilian player is better than an English player, regardless of who they are. It's like an inverse nationalism of sorts.

 

It's not like he's got an English manager who wants to help the national team, quite the opposite! When a Scotsman puts an Englishman up front and they win the Champion's League, they've got to have some degree of quality to them.

 

I just feel that if he were Spanish, cynics would be pissing their pants about Rooney.