The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Crychon]

I kinda like the Kane vs Rollins storyline. It's cheesy and predictable but boy is it entertaining.

 

Along with the New Day antics and the diva revolution it creates a watchable product for me. But the Dudleys were a little overused this week, even though it made sense.

 

New Day is pretty much the saving grace of WWE TV for me right now, they're awesome.

 

The Kane/Rollins feud is probably the 2nd most interesting thing going right now, but that's not saying very much. I like the storyline, but I think I can already tell that it's going to be the exact same thing for the next few weeks until the PPV.

 

The divas revolution is already really stale for me. The reason why it was exciting to me at first was I was hoping that with the NXT divas being brought up, the other divas would be forced to work up to their level. Unfortunately, all it has done is made it so the NXT divas are working down to their level, which hasn't been very exciting.

 

Though I've always hated the term, it has also made me realize how much I hate the term "Diva" for referring to female wrestlers as well. I'm so sick of that term. I know it's not going anywhere because of that stupid reality show, but yeah, not a fan of that.

[Blackman]

Eventually, the Bellas will call it quits as there's little interesting things for them to do apart from managing someone along with their reality tv thing. Then the new generation will no longer have to hold back unless the "boss" tells them to.

[GhostDogg]

OK, So I just saw the NXT PPV...

 

 

OH.... MY.....GOD!!!!!!

 

I dont know what was more awesome about that PPV, was it the Asuka debut ... or the Iron Woman Match!!! I mean the last 4 mins... of that match... was down right BRUTAL!!!

 

 

The main roster needs to take NOTES!!!

 

*****

[GhostDogg]

I like to saw a follow up. I am a 37 year old man.. And that match was a Tear Jerker at the end... Ive only openly weeped for 3 matches in my life.

 

1. When Chris Benoit won his first heavyweight title.

2. When Daniel Bryan won at WM 30.

3. When Undertaker streak was broken by Brock Lesnar in WM 30.

 

 

 

 

This makes #4.

 

#dontjudgeme

[Blackman]

I wept a little too, but I tend to weep quite a lot when confronted with visual media. It has the power to create deep experiences even though you're just sitting in your chair watching. Having it in HD makes it even stronger. The end of the Tag Team Cup made me tear up a little, and the moments before and after the main event as well. Don't just me. It wasn't sobbing or anything. Just tears coming out of my eyes. Couldn't help it. Funny how that little girl was crying over Sasha's foul play on her 'hero'. The Kana match went better than expected, but it was just par with her usual performance, if not sub-par because of the position on the card.

 

I was finally able to sub to the WWE Network and it was just in time I see, with the NXT event being quite awesome. Weird how I did it through paypal, though it refused to work for months in a row now (while nothing's changed on my part). Didn't really do it for the NXT show, just to see the documentaries and the RAW's of 1999 that never aired here. I only saw parts in "best of"-dvd's.

[Derek B]

I am consistently amazed by Sasha and Bayley. Couldn't help but tear up during the main event... more than once. Izzy (Bayley's superfan) is the second best manager in the WWE right now, behind only Paul Heyman. Sasha made her cry, which made me cry... the finishing stretch was awesome, which made tear up.... and the post-match stuff just cemented how awesome the moment was and how far that Bayley, Sasha and the new generation of female wrestlers have come.

 

I'm not the most cynical of fans, but I can't remember being so moved by wrestling ever... elite level stuff.

[Mootinie]

The thing is, Sasha vs. Bayley can only ever happen in NXT because crowds on main roster shows just refuse to take women's wrestling that seriously. It's not the failure of the Diva's Revolution or the booking and what not, it's just a totally different wrestling climate altogether. One where fans turn up to see Brock Lesnar and not Sasha Banks.

 

I thought the main event was good though. A bit sloppy and a bit overbooked, but the story more than covered it. ****1/4 on that.

 

I loved Rhyno & Corbin vs. Gable & Jordan. That was a real sleeper-hit of a match, loved the back and forth and only one rest hold all match! Fantastic finishing sequence. How far improved is Baron Corbin all of a sudden? He was great all night long! **** on that match and I'm at around *** on everything else. All in all, I thought it was a good show.

[Teh_Showtime]

The thing is, Sasha vs. Bayley can only ever happen in NXT because crowds on main roster shows just refuse to take women's wrestling that seriously. It's not the failure of the Diva's Revolution or the booking and what not, it's just a totally different wrestling climate altogether. One where fans turn up to see Brock Lesnar and not Sasha Banks.

 

They have to be given incentive to take it seriously. That's like saying that Kevin Owens could never get over on the main roster because the fans are conditioned to Cena and Orton. If it was booked well and had real storylines and people believed in it, it would be over

 

It has nothing to do with fans not buying into women on the main roster, because they don't react to anything when it's booked as bad as the girls have been. Let alone being booked terribly and irrelevant for 20 years. You have to do more than just tell the audience that something is important if you want them to take it seriously

[milamber]

NXT Takeover: Respect:

 

Balor & Joe vs Dash & Dawson - Good match. Finn insisted on hitting the Coup De Grace with an injured leg. Dash & Dawson controlled most of the match and looked like a veteran tag team but they could really use a manager.

Jordan & Gable vs Rhyno & Corbin - Great even match with Corbin getting the pin. Everyone performed well but Corbin stepped up and Jordan bought an intensity he's never shown before. I didn't mind Gable & Jordan losing. They will be tag champs sooner rather than later. Corbin & Rhyno are now an established heel team who can feud with the Vaudevillians. I expect Corbin to turn on Rhyno.

Brooke vs Asuka - Good match and not quite the expected squash. Asuka already has quite a varied moveset. Credit to Dana for her part in this match (and the

). Asuka vs Emma at Takeover: London please.

Breeze vs Crews - Great match. The attention to detail with Breeze targeting Apollo's back was nice. It even forced Crews to use a powerbomb finisher. Both these guys are stars. I want a Breeze vs Regal retirement match at Takeover: London.

Rhyno & Corbin vs Balor & Joe (Dusty Rhodes Tag Team Classic) - Solid match. It started off slow but finished strong. I was surprised Balor & Joe won clean with no shenanigans. Having Dusty's family present the trophy and Cody give a short speech (all non-kayfabe) was the perfect end to the tournament.

Sasha vs Bayley (NXT Womens Championship) - Classic match. I honestly could have watched them wrestle for 60 minutes. Sasha's trolling of Izzy is about the best heeling we are likely to see in the PG era. It's up there with Owens apron powerbombing Zayn and Ted DiBiase and the Basketball Kid. Triple H, the coaches and superstars standing on the stage giving the crying women a standing ovation made me a little teary. It seems like every Takeover has a mark-worthy moment now. The main roster doesn't make me feel like that often enough.

 

Verdict: Best Special/PPV of the year, IMO. Hot crowd, no weak matches and an epic main event.

 

 

[Dawn]

So, look at who just made his debut on NXT...

 

http://cs629102.vk.me/v629102099/1b242/KOdUfaNWHxA.jpg

[foolinc]

The best thing about the Dusty Classic was that even though the finals was between two thrown together tag teams, the tournament turned NXT into tag team central. Look at all of the tag teams with some form of momentum.

 

The Vaudevillians

Enzo and Cass

Blake and Murphy

Jordan and Gable

Dash and Dawson

Hype Bros.

Gargano and Ciampa

[Jaysin]

The best thing about the Dusty Classic was that even though the finals was between two thrown together tag teams, the tournament turned NXT into tag team central. Look at all of the tag teams with some form of momentum.

 

The Vaudevillians

Enzo and Cass

Blake and Murphy

Jordan and Gable

Dash and Dawson

Hype Bros.

Gargano and Ciampa

 

The bolded part was one of Dusty's booking signatures though. Lethal Lottery was his idea. He even brought it to TNA. It made perfect sense for thrown together teams to get so far.

 

Plus, you never know when two men are going to click and take off. Everyone scoffed at the idea of D-Bry and Kane and it was pure magic.

 

Not harping on you or anything, but I've seen so many people crapping over that aspect of the tournament when it was a Dusty Trademark through and through.

[foolinc]

The bolded part was one of Dusty's booking signatures though. Lethal Lottery was his idea. He even brought it to TNA. It made perfect sense for thrown together teams to get so far.

 

Plus, you never know when two men are going to click and take off. Everyone scoffed at the idea of D-Bry and Kane and it was pure magic.

 

Not harping on you or anything, but I've seen so many people crapping over that aspect of the tournament when it was a Dusty Trademark through and through.

 

I had zero problems with Corbin/Rhyno and Finn/Joe. I got the Crockett Cup vibe straight away and appreciated the whole tournament for what it was. My post was ALSO because I'm tired of people crapping about it.

 

The only thing I didn't expect was a clean finish with Joe and Balor winning. I fully expected some Dusty level shenanigans with with Joe or Balor turning heel (joining with Corbin and Rhyno).

[Jaysin]

Glad we agree on that aspect! I haven't had a chance to watch Respect yet, but I am beyond excited for it.

[Rickymex]

If the Dusty Classic is going to be a yearly tournament then having two guys like Balor and Joe win gives it legitimacy. The Mechanics, Corbin, and JJ/Gable could end up getting released or misused and we end up with inaugural Andre Battle Royal Winner Cesaro.

 

Saying that I expected Balor and Joe vs Jordan and Gable as the finals. Mostly to see Gable and Finn wrestle.

[crownsy]

Sasha making Izzy cry was the best Heel work of the PG era.

[The_CoC]

Sasha making Izzy cry was the best Heel work of the PG era.

 

Or that time CM Punk said that fan had a vagina... Good Times

[Mootinie]

They have to be given incentive to take it seriously. That's like saying that Kevin Owens could never get over on the main roster because the fans are conditioned to Cena and Orton. If it was booked well and had real storylines and people believed in it, it would be over

 

It has nothing to do with fans not buying into women on the main roster, because they don't react to anything when it's booked as bad as the girls have been. Let alone being booked terribly and irrelevant for 20 years. You have to do more than just tell the audience that something is important if you want them to take it seriously

 

What? How the hell are the fans conditioned to Cena and Orton? Sorry for being blunt but that made absolutely no sense to me and I'm curious as to what compelled you to write that.

 

And it has everything to do with fans not buying into women. Booking hardly necessitates anything. Bryan was held down and got those insane reactions. Ambrose still, on occasion, gets the pop of the night and look at how badly he's booked. Reigns, the same. Bloody Dolph Ziggler has just had one of the worst feuds of the year with Rusev but look at his pop on the MSG show!

 

If fans care for you, if they want to see you succeed, they will cheer you no matter what. They just don't care about Charlotte. They don't care about Paige. They don't care about Nikki. If the fans cared, if they truly cared about women's wrestling, they would pop for somebody like Paige irregardless of how badly she was being booked just like they do for everybody else they love. But they don't.

[lazorbeak]

If fans care for you, if they want to see you succeed, they will cheer you no matter what. They just don't care about Charlotte. They don't care about Paige. They don't care about Nikki. If the fans cared, if they truly cared about women's wrestling, they would pop for somebody like Paige irregardless of how badly she was being booked just like they do for everybody else they love. But they don't.

 

If the fans legitimately don't know who you are, through what magical means are they supposed to care, other than the booking? I mean I realize it was over a decade ago but Chyna got over because she worked with HBK and Triple H and was made to look good during Triple H's matches. If you just threw Chyna into a twelve minute match with Alundra Blayze, the crowd wouldn't care because it would have no idea who she was.

[Moe Hunter]

If the fans legitimately don't know who you are, through what magical means are they supposed to care, other than the booking? I mean I realize it was over a decade ago but Chyna got over because she worked with HBK and Triple H and was made to look good during Triple H's matches. If you just threw Chyna into a twelve minute match with Alundra Blayze, the crowd wouldn't care because it would have no idea who she was.

A more recent example, AJ Lee got crazy over through working with Daniel Bryan, CM Punk and Kane.

 

I absolutely agree - Daniel Bryan was able to get over despite constantly being trashed on commentary because enough people knew his history in RoH, they could see he was being held back. Sadly we can't say the same for Becky's indie work from nine+ years ago, Bayley and Sasha don't have much of a reputation from their time on the indies, and Charlotte has no experience prior to WWE.

 

Other than vaguely referencing their NXT titles/catchphrases (The Boss, Life Enthusiast, Genetically Superior) and sadly focusing way too much on trying to make Charlotte into L'il Naitch v8.0, we just don't have anything to go on.

[Mammoth]

And it has everything to do with fans not buying into women. Booking hardly necessitates anything. Bryan was held down and got those insane reactions. Ambrose still, on occasion, gets the pop of the night and look at how badly he's booked. Reigns, the same. Bloody Dolph Ziggler has just had one of the worst feuds of the year with Rusev but look at his pop on the MSG show!

 

If fans care for you, if they want to see you succeed, they will cheer you no matter what. They just don't care about Charlotte. They don't care about Paige. They don't care about Nikki. If the fans cared, if they truly cared about women's wrestling, they would pop for somebody like Paige irregardless of how badly she was being booked just like they do for everybody else they love. But they don't.

To be fair, I don't think the problem is "personal" booking, but the booking of the Diva's division as a whole. In the case of most of the guys you listed, the crowd got/get behind them because they feel like they haven't been given the opportunity they deserve. Those guys have worked their ass off (either prior to WWE like Bryan Danielson or during their WWE stint like Dolph Ziggler) and have consistently been one of the best performers on the show which is what made the crowd care for them. Whereas with the Diva's, the 'E hasn't even given them a chance to show what they're made of except for an occasional ten minute match and some God awful segments, usually revolving around a reality TV show. I think that's where the disparity lies. It's not that fans don't/won't care for women's wrestling, it's that they've had no reason to for almost ten years. NXT is a perfect example of a predominantly "WWE audience" caring for women's wrestling given the opportunity. I think this is what Teh_Showtime was basically referring to when he said "You have to do more than just tell the audience that something is important if you want them to take it seriously." and that starts (no, it doesn't "necessitate" anything but it's certainly where any change begins) with the booking.[/2cents]

[lazorbeak]

A more recent example, AJ Lee got crazy over through working with Daniel Bryan, CM Punk and Kane.

 

I absolutely agree - Daniel Bryan was able to get over despite constantly being trashed on commentary because enough people knew his history in RoH, they could see he was being held back. Sadly we can't say the same for Becky's indie work from nine+ years ago, Bayley and Sasha don't have much of a reputation from their time on the indies, and Charlotte has no experience prior to WWE.

 

I'd argue it wasn't even his ROH work, but his more recent run at the top that ended with the Sheamus six second Wrestlemania match and his sympathetic babyface turn. Live WWE audiences had seen him before and knew who he was and wanted to see him more.

 

And I totally agree, AJ was given every opportunity to get over by being involved in top storylines, including being Raw GM for a bit, before she was ever given a ten minute match.

[Mootinie]

It's very difficult to undo those years of bad service though (see: TNA's X-Division and NJPW's Tag Division). They've refocused on the in-ring stuff and given the women longer matches, which was what people asked for, but it's obvious that the perception hasn't changed one iota.

 

You guys mentioned Chyna and AJ Lee, who, alongside Lita, Sable and Trish Stratus are the five most popular female competitors the WWE has ever had in my opinion. Am I wrong in saying that all of them got over because they were involved in a major storyline with the males? Obviously you can't do that for every female, so, what is the solution? All I'm saying is that people don't seem to care one way or the other and that's been the case for about 15 years now.

[Crychon]

Lawler really doesn't help the women get over when he only drools over their appearances the whole time, either. The dude's terrible now anyway (and mostly just makes terrible dad jokes), but he's especially bad for the womens division.

[lazorbeak]

It's very difficult to undo those years of bad service though (see: TNA's X-Division and NJPW's Tag Division). They've refocused on the in-ring stuff and given the women longer matches, which was what people asked for, but it's obvious that the perception hasn't changed one iota.

 

You guys mentioned Chyna and AJ Lee, who, alongside Lita, Sable and Trish Stratus are the five most popular female competitors the WWE has ever had in my opinion. Am I wrong in saying that all of them got over because they were involved in a major storyline with the males? Obviously you can't do that for every female, so, what is the solution? All I'm saying is that people don't seem to care one way or the other and that's been the case for about 15 years now.

 

Without getting too "inside TEW", a division like a cruiserweight or women's division is only as over as the top performer in the division. One of WWE's big problems in general is that they're terrible at showcasing their talent in a way that gets people over.

 

Seriously it's easy to look back at WCW's cruiserweight division and see how they did it right. They have Malenko debut in early '96 and win a largely worthless cruiserweight belt. Then they showcase him for two months where he only wins on TV and PPV in great matches with the idea being that new guys are being brought in to face him. One of the new guys is Rey Mysterio and they have a classic on PPV where Malenko retains. Then Mysterio wins the belt the night after he wins a match on PPV. Mysterio then wins every match he's in from July to October. By the time Dean beats him at Halloween Havoc, the belt means something because both guys have been put over as tough competitors.

 

Compare that to WWE, where they give Charlotte the belt and have her lose like four tag team matches to show she's not above the rest of the division. Or a guy like Sheamus who wins MitB and then promptly loses every match he's in for months. And in a division where fans have been trained to treat a four minute divas match as a bathroom break, nobody's ever going to get over that way.