The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[MrSelfDestruct]

So does anyone else think this defending the title in the Rumble is stupid as hell?

The whole point is to main event for the title but in this you just.. win the title and get to rematch Roman, or Roman wins and faces who? LIKE WHY. What did the Rumbe ever do to you to steal its entire worth!

[Dawn]

So does anyone else think this defending the title in the Rumble is stupid as hell?

The whole point is to main event for the title but in this you just.. win the title and get to rematch Roman, or Roman wins and faces who? LIKE WHY. What did the Rumbe ever do to you to steal its entire worth!

 

I think it makes the match more intriguing. The ''Main Event'' concept was fading with the horrid booking anyway, and now the story calls for Roman to be one hell of an ass kicker against all comers who will all be gunning for his title, or else he will lose his title, and that makes the match a lot more exciting. It will be hard for the WWE to screw with the build-up or the booking, especially Roman's own. This match calls for him to look like a credible champion at the very end, whether he retains or loses the title, something he needs to do. His challenger or opponent might just be decided during the match itself, which was what happened back then in the 90's...matches for Mania were hinted at during the Royal Rumble Match.

[Remianen]

Is the Dwayne really that good as kissing VKMs backside?

 

Dwayne doesn't have to kiss Vince's butt. When you've made someone close to a billion dollars and helped him establish his own movie studio, you kinda get some benefit of doubt. And that's even assuming he put in a word for Roman (which I doubt). Besides, Roman fits Vince's preferred body type to a T, comes from a respected family in the business, and has a smoldering charisma that appeals to the female segment of the audience (the segment they're actively trying to grow right now - how many bleach blond fitness models have been called up of late?). Add to that the fact that the established "top guys" can't stay healthy for long stretches (or are part-time) and yeah, you make the best of a non-ideal situation. I should note that similar complaints were made about one Rocky Maivia after his transformation.

 

But back to WWE. How is it guys like Wyatt, Ziggler, Barrett get shafted while a nontalented trash like Ryberg and Reigns are given more than they deserve?

 

Ziggler would need to be built. He's too good as a plucky underdog babyface who makes anyone look good. They don't have anyone else who can do that (Neville is close but not quite). Also, his entire moveset is borrowed. From the Fameasser to the superkick to the snap DDT. That would need to change as well. He's not considered 'new' to the audience in his current form.

 

Barrett can't stay healthy. He's injured RIGHT NOW but because he's integral to the League of Nations, he can't take time off. Look at the match from a few weeks ago where the league fought, I think it was the Lucha Dragons and the Usos. How much ring time did Barrett get? NONE. He was never tagged in. There's a reason for that. When his 'Bad News' schtick had him red hot, he got hurt and cooled off.

 

Can't explain Wyatt though. He would seem perfect since he has an established stable behind him. Maybe they don't fit within the Authority storyline (Bray Wyatt cannot be controlled).

 

Daniel Bryan is beat up. His body can't handle the rigors of being a full time wrestler (even part time is questionable unless he makes major changes to his moveset and in-ring style). CM Punk wouldn't toe the company line. He wasn't an a-hole backstage, he just wouldn't go for the stuff they were shoveling at him. He's an IWC darling for good reason and a stark contrast to Cena. Punk wanted his storylines to make sense and that's akin to heresy in WWE.

 

The thing that's being missed here is WWE is not about wrestling and hasn't been for years. Just like Google isn't about web searching and hasn't been for years. They use wrestling as a front for what they really want to be: a formidable creator of content across all platforms. Hell, read their prospectus! They want to create characters for licensing purposes to sell merchandise and create new properties and franchises (like The Marine). Basically, they want to be Marvel, only with real humans as the basis for characters.

 

That's precisely why they ignore the IWC, by and large. Hardcore wrestling fans don't buy merchandise in nearly the same volume as casual fans (or "sheeple" as you call them). You see this in all areas of entertainment, whether you realize it or not. Why does it seem like every "blockbuster" movie has to be PG or PG-13 in theaters yet when it's released on DVD/Blu-ray, it's "unrated" (and often well into the R range)? How much Gable/Jordan merch do you own? That's the only thing these people (meaning, the suits whispering into Vince's ear) understand. Who's moving units? Hell, I don't think they're going to do anything with her but I own every piece of Asuka merchandise they sell (both t-shirts and the mask). I just add that to the Sasha Banks, Charlotte, Bayley, Emma (pre-call up), Lucha Dragons, and Samoa Joe stuff.

 

I can agree with you on some things but you have to come to grips with something: WWE is not targeting you. You, as a hardcore wrestling fan, who demands storylines make sense in a real way, are not their primary audience. If you don't buy merchandise, they don't give a flip what you think (your dollars = your vote in a manner of speaking). Go back in this thread a few years. I WAS YOU. I raged about how useless the divas division was and what would happen if they actually got some real wrestlers. Well, it took some years but here we are. And now, I'm deathly afraid that they're going to put a divas title match on the Wrestlemania card. Think about it for a second. What have divas matches at Mania been, traditionally of late? Bathroom breaks. If a tree falls in the forest and no one's there to hear it, does it make a sound? More specifically, if a 5-star divas match happens at Mania and everyone's on the throne, will it get the credit it deserves?

[MrSelfDestruct]

Dwayne doesn't have to kiss Vince's butt. When you've made someone close to a billion dollars and helped him establish his own movie studio, you kinda get some benefit of doubt. And that's even assuming he put in a word for Roman (which I doubt). Besides, Roman fits Vince's preferred body type to a T, comes from a respected family in the business, and has a smoldering charisma that appeals to the female segment of the audience (the segment they're actively trying to grow right now - how many bleach blond fitness models have been called up of late?). Add to that the fact that the established "top guys" can't stay healthy for long stretches (or are part-time) and yeah, you make the best of a non-ideal situation. I should note that similar complaints were made about one Rocky Maivia after his transformation.

 

 

 

Ziggler would need to be built. He's too good as a plucky underdog babyface who makes anyone look good. They don't have anyone else who can do that (Neville is close but not quite). Also, his entire moveset is borrowed. From the Fameasser to the superkick to the snap DDT. That would need to change as well. He's not considered 'new' to the audience in his current form.

 

Barrett can't stay healthy. He's injured RIGHT NOW but because he's integral to the League of Nations, he can't take time off. Look at the match from a few weeks ago where the league fought, I think it was the Lucha Dragons and the Usos. How much ring time did Barrett get? NONE. He was never tagged in. There's a reason for that. When his 'Bad News' schtick had him red hot, he got hurt and cooled off.

 

Can't explain Wyatt though. He would seem perfect since he has an established stable behind him. Maybe they don't fit within the Authority storyline (Bray Wyatt cannot be controlled).

 

Daniel Bryan is beat up. His body can't handle the rigors of being a full time wrestler (even part time is questionable unless he makes major changes to his moveset and in-ring style). CM Punk wouldn't toe the company line. He wasn't an a-hole backstage, he just wouldn't go for the stuff they were shoveling at him. He's an IWC darling for good reason and a stark contrast to Cena. Punk wanted his storylines to make sense and that's akin to heresy in WWE.

 

The thing that's being missed here is WWE is not about wrestling and hasn't been for years. Just like Google isn't about web searching and hasn't been for years. They use wrestling as a front for what they really want to be: a formidable creator of content across all platforms. Hell, read their prospectus! They want to create characters for licensing purposes to sell merchandise and create new properties and franchises (like The Marine). Basically, they want to be Marvel, only with real humans as the basis for characters.

 

That's precisely why they ignore the IWC, by and large. Hardcore wrestling fans don't buy merchandise in nearly the same volume as casual fans (or "sheeple" as you call them). You see this in all areas of entertainment, whether you realize it or not. Why does it seem like every "blockbuster" movie has to be PG or PG-13 in theaters yet when it's released on DVD/Blu-ray, it's "unrated" (and often well into the R range)? How much Gable/Jordan merch do you own? That's the only thing these people (meaning, the suits whispering into Vince's ear) understand. Who's moving units? Hell, I don't think they're going to do anything with her but I own every piece of Asuka merchandise they sell (both t-shirts and the mask). I just add that to the Sasha Banks, Charlotte, Bayley, Emma (pre-call up), Lucha Dragons, and Samoa Joe stuff.

 

I can agree with you on some things but you have to come to grips with something: WWE is not targeting you. You, as a hardcore wrestling fan, who demands storylines make sense in a real way, are not their primary audience. If you don't buy merchandise, they don't give a flip what you think (your dollars = your vote in a manner of speaking). Go back in this thread a few years. I WAS YOU. I raged about how useless the divas division was and what would happen if they actually got some real wrestlers. Well, it took some years but here we are. And now, I'm deathly afraid that they're going to put a divas title match on the Wrestlemania card. Think about it for a second. What have divas matches at Mania been, traditionally of late? Bathroom breaks. If a tree falls in the forest and no one's there to hear it, does it make a sound? More specifically, if a 5-star divas match happens at Mania and everyone's on the throne, will it get the credit it deserves?

 

Oh my god may copy this just to explain to some people why they dont understand the business and why certain guy who can wrestle but can't entertain cannot thrive in WWE as it isn't wrestling, its entertainment. Seriously perfectly put lol

[MrSelfDestruct]

Social Outcasts is interesting. I like them all except Rose but hes growing on me, the only odd fit to me is Axel, hes trying SO hard to be like the Loose Cannon of the group but hes so damn corny. I see potential though, kinda odd though that they threw a bunch of heels together and its kinda a face stable though.. If it gets them over I'm all for it

[Dawn]

Damn, that legit shocked me and was one of the best upsets I've seen in a long time...a much deserved win for Kalisto, I hope he skyrockets in singles competition after this. Props to the WWE for this.

[MrSelfDestruct]

Damn, that legit shocked me and was one of the best upsets I've seen in a long time...a much deserved win for Kalisto, I hope he skyrockets in singles competition after this. Props to the WWE for this.

 

I'm all for it, but he and Sin Cara are killing it in the tag division. i dont see why they'd split them up.. I get he's injured, but still.

[Dawn]

I'm all for it, but he and Sin Cara are killing it in the tag division. i dont see why they'd split them up.. I get he's injured, but still.

 

Well, Kalisto deserves this push a lot and Hunico is pushing 40...new teams should arrive this year, no hush.

[MrSelfDestruct]

Well, Kalisto deserves this push a lot and Hunico is pushing 40...new teams should arrive this year, no hush.

 

WOW i did not know he was that old.. I didn't realize who Kalisto was until I went to Wikipedia again tbh lol. I'd forgotten.

[Warhawk8492]

While the Kalisto Vs Del Rio match was great, the main event was stupid. Kevin Owens should have gone over. They need to stop booking him like Superman, its getting old. It makes me hate Reigns worse and worse. I hate Reigns more then I ever hated Cena. Every time Reigns was in a decent match he was carried.

[Peppermint Rage]

I'll say this, I believe the best characters (with rare exceptions) are relateable, and I personally don't find Roman's character at all relateable, the only time I've liked him post sheild is when he was in that clip where he was singing to his daughter, I like goofy dad roman, I don't like bad smug promos (admittedly there's been less) or the unstoppable I can beat any obnoxious odds you throw at me roman, I mean he beat a man who is supposed to be a legitimate challenger, despite getting hit by his finish twice every pin attempt on him being fast counted, and two screwy referees.

[iruleall15]

I'll say this, I believe the best characters (with rare exceptions) are relateable, and I personally don't find Roman's character at all relateable, the only time I've liked him post sheild is when he was in that clip where he was singing to his daughter, I like goofy dad roman, I don't like bad smug promos (admittedly there's been less) or the unstoppable I can beat any obnoxious odds you throw at me roman, I mean he beat a man who is supposed to be a legitimate challenger, despite getting hit by his finish twice every pin attempt on him being fast counted, and two screwy referees.

 

 

Remember the match with Cena vs Miz where Miz and Riley beat the life out of Cena for 30 minutes just for Cena to go full Superman and land literally 5 moves and win? Or the Cena vs Wyatt cage match where Cena was about to win every 3 minutes by climbing if the Family didnt stop him?

 

 

This is how they are booking all their faces now it seems. Its terrible and not interesting. This unbeatable face crap isnt entertaining. Its some of the worst TV ive ever seen. The way Roman is booked makes me sick. The fact they will bury an entire midcard/uppermidcard for 1 moron who could cut a good promo if his life depends on it or even wrestle a match for that matter is beyond me.

[Jaysin]

That's how the faces of the company have always been booked all the way back to Hogan. Vince's booking strategy has always, ALWAYS been babyface-centric.

 

It's not going to change.

[Remianen]

That's how the faces of the company have always been booked all the way back to Hogan. Vince's booking strategy has always, ALWAYS been babyface-centric.

 

It's not going to change.

 

There are three kinds of babyfaces in WWE:

 

1) Unstoppable force (Reigns, Brock, Taker, Cena, Batista)

2) Plucky underdog (Ziggler, Daniel Bryan, Neville)

3) Edgy face often erroneously called 'tweener' (Orton, Austin, Ambrose)

 

I can't remember the last time I saw a babyface in WWE that didn't fit into one of these categories.

 

And strong babyfaces sell more merchandise. Especially strong babyfaces with catchphrases ("Yes", "Suplex City", "Never Give Up", etc).

[milamber]

Average Raw at best. The best parts were Xavier, Owens, Becky, Lesnar and Kalisto. Having Kalisto take the US Title off Del Rio was a big deal. WWE aren't usually so quick to capitalize when a guy is hot with the crowds.

 

I really want Owens to win the Rumble leading to Owens vs Lesnar at WrestleMania. But there's no way Reigns isn't main eventing and it would waste his recent build so I'd settle for a triple threat match.

[crownsy]

Average Raw at best. The best parts were Xavier, Owens, Becky, Lesnar and Kalisto. Having Kalisto take the US Title off Del Rio was a big deal. WWE aren't usually so quick to capitalize when a guy is hot with the crowds.

 

I really want Owens to win the Rumble leading to Owens vs Lesnar at WrestleMania. But there's no way Reigns isn't main eventing and it would waste his recent build so I'd settle for a triple threat match.

 

Yea, I figure Lesnar wins, then they make Reigns chase his rematch at mania, and he somehow tricks/out maneuvers the authority into giving it to him.

 

Prob by beating Hunter with said stip on the line pre-mania.

[lr10540]

For the same reason it takes more than 20 seconds to climb a ladder or exit a cage early in a Ladder/Cage match when neither guy is gassed yet They have to unrealistically pad the matches.

 

I see it in ladder matches to a lesser degree.

 

Cage matches are another that drive me crazy. Not only is it anticlimatic most of the time (no near falls, you either eecape or not) but it's a dumb finish! What really had me hot was the Sheamus/Ambrose cage match that closed Raw a couple weeks back. They were both hanging on the OUTSIDE of the cage punching each other... JUST LET GO AND YOU'LL WIN THE MATCH!! That may be the worst thing I've seen in recent memory. Then when Ambrose fell, Sheamus gave this almost disgusted look. Idiot. All you have to do was let go.

[Teh_Showtime]

There are three kinds of babyfaces in WWE:

 

1) Unstoppable force (Reigns, Brock, Taker, Cena, Batista)

2) Plucky underdog (Ziggler, Daniel Bryan, Neville)

3) Edgy face often erroneously called 'tweener' (Orton, Austin, Ambrose)

 

This is the big problem with Roman Reigns...if they want him to be the next Taker/Cena/Batista face they're doing an awful job considering how much he loses the big matches

 

People will act like the losses don't count because they might not have been all clean, but WWE(F) babyfaces have been overcoming odds for 40 years, his inability to do so instantly puts him behind those people they want him to emulate.

[lr10540]

This is the big problem with Roman Reigns...if they want him to be the next Taker/Cena/Batista face they're doing an awful job considering how much he loses the big matches

 

People will act like the losses don't count because they might not have been all clean, but WWE(F) babyfaces have been overcoming odds for 40 years, his inability to do so instantly puts him behind those people they want him to emulate.

 

Just watched the Kalisto ADR match. Really nice. It's quite amazing how good it was when you remember the first match they had in the World Title tournament.

[crownsy]

This is the big problem with Roman Reigns...if they want him to be the next Taker/Cena/Batista face they're doing an awful job considering how much he loses the big matches

 

People will act like the losses don't count because they might not have been all clean, but WWE(F) babyfaces have been overcoming odds for 40 years, his inability to do so instantly puts him behind those people they want him to emulate.

 

The problem is when they push him to the moon, people turn on it quickly because he's "Vince's pick" like last year's rumble.

 

But you are exactly right. They've really backed themselves into a corner with ever getting him to the level they want. And this is from someone who doesn't mind Roman. I don't particularly care for him either, but a alot of that is how they are booking him, and how it makes the rest of the roster look.

[Rone Rivendale]

Reigns just seems to be naturally hateable.

 

You got one side who don't like him because he wins too much.

 

You got one side who don't like him because he loses too much.

 

It hurts my brain.

[Remianen]

He's not hateable by anyone who matters.

 

Lemme 'splain that.

 

Roman Reigns, onscreen and off, is bankable. I would imagine his Q rating is pretty high. That Fatherhood campaign humanized him. For those who know (American) football, right now, Reigns is the anti-Ray Rice/Greg Hardy. That is why he's bankable. He seems to be drawing lots of a desirable demographic. We've all seen that WWE is not shy about pulling the plug on pushes that aren't going the way they want (or accomplishing the goals they've set). He must be drawing since he's had this sustained push for over a year now. They're trying to blend the 'unstoppable force' and 'plucky underdog' into one character.

 

Also, I want to state the obvious here because after watching Raw again, it struck me hardcore.

 

Paul Heyman is GOLD.

 

He can't put a shine on a turd (hi Curtis Axel) but if you give him someone with talent (Punk, Brock), he will make that person shine like a diamond. WOW! It's the perfect setup for the bomb that'll blow up in the Authority's face. Considering his onscreen persona and what he's done over the past two years, when have you known anyone (aside from possibly Heyman) to be able to make Brock Lesnar do something he doesn't want to do? Namely, enter the Royal Rumble rather than just getting the reward for winning it like he wanted.

[milamber]

This is the big problem with Roman Reigns...if they want him to be the next Taker/Cena/Batista face they're doing an awful job considering how much he loses the big matches

 

People will act like the losses don't count because they might not have been all clean, but WWE(F) babyfaces have been overcoming odds for 40 years, his inability to do so instantly puts him behind those people they want him to emulate.

 

They are trying so hard to please everyone and get Reigns over as the face of the company that the booking has been all over the place since his singles push post-injury.

 

I agree with Remi. His character is that of the Unstoppable force (most matches he can handle himself against any opponent including Brock Lesnar and kick ass when outnumbered) but they are booking him as the Plucky Underdog (like Bryan) with the Authority overwhelming him and keeping him down.

[Blackman]

http://www.collective-evolution.com/2015/10/27/professors-politicians-gather-to-warn-us-about-the-new-world-order-nwo/

 

Look who discovered the network...

[lr10540]

This is the big problem with Roman Reigns...if they want him to be the next Taker/Cena/Batista face they're doing an awful job considering how much he loses the big matches

 

People will act like the losses don't count because they might not have been all clean, but WWE(F) babyfaces have been overcoming odds for 40 years, his inability to do so instantly puts him behind those people they want him to emulate.

 

From my watching history, the only baby faces who have been pretty much unstoppable is Cena. Looking in the past one would see Hogan and maybe Warrior.

 

The babyface vs authority angle is the real issue. The three biggest guys to have done that the last 15 to 20 years have been Austin, Punk and Bryan. He's nowhere near any of those 3. He doesn't have Austin's charisma, he doesn't have Punk's realism/bravado, and he doesn't have Bryan's fan support. That's not even taking into consideration what those other 3 brought to the table in the ring and on the microphone. Reigns doesn't come close.

 

I've said it forever, he needs to be booked like Batista where he doesn't say much outside of ll"I want my title and I'm gonna kick your ass to get it."