The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Tha Black Phenom]

Answers in bold again.

 

It sure is something to defend him with because you assume the fans will latch on to anything hyped on the same level as Cena, which isn't the case and the WWE have failed numerous times in the past of getting things or superstars over who were given a great deal of attention. Cena is a one of a kind opportunity that loads of superstars out there dream to achieve half of, and it takes more than a lot to get there.

 

I never said none could be at Cena's level, but "a lot of people" is pushing it as well. Not a lot of people could carry the same dedication he has, which is a big part of Cena's stigma. By the same token, I'd ask you to prove the opposite, which you can't either.

[Jaysin]

I may not like Cena, but I respect the hell out of him and admire his work ethic. He's made more money for the wrestling industry than anyone in the modern era. Someone else said it, but if you watch his early stuff from Smackdown and his stuff from OVW, the guy is a heck of a worker. He is doing exactly what Hogan did and its probably going to lengthen his career in the process. If you watch Hogan's stuff from Japan, he's doing standing cross arm breakers and actually wrestling.

 

I'm kind of bothered by your statements of Vince pushing big guys though. The way you're making it sound is that these guys aren't talented.

 

Big Show was a phenomenal athlete. Seriously, a 7 foot, 500 pound man that's an ATHLETE. Seriously, a man that size flying off the top rope? He could make you laugh or intimidate the hell out of you. The dude is in my top 3 big men wrestlers of all time list.

 

Kevin Nash/Diesel. Sure, his backstage politics made him a pretty crummy guy, but he was a good brawler and at one point one of the three most hated men in wrestling...and that's a good thing! The nWo was insanely successful and I don't think it would have been if he hadn't been a part of it.

 

Sure, Khali sucks, but a man that size is intimidating and it would just look silly not to try and push him up the card.

[ampulator]

The ultimate problem is NOT Cena, but the way the WWE handles of business these days. This wouldn't a big problem if there wasn't a competing industry that's taking a lot of possible fans AND talent away from wrestling. This industry isn't exactly taking away from other similar industries as once thought-and there's only so many new fans that they can possibly create. These fans have to come from somewhere else... and that somewhere is pro-wrestling.

 

Edit: NOT Cena.

[Jaysin]

http://podcasting.fia.net/6005/4788152.mp3

 

An interview with Orton.

 

I haven't listened to the whole thing yet, but I heard he throws people under the bus, including the Rock.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

http://podcasting.fia.net/6005/4788152.mp3

 

An interview with Orton.

 

I haven't listened to the whole thing yet, but I heard he throws people under the bus, including the Rock.

 

Listened to it, and damn Orton is a pretty funny guy. He doesn't really throw Rock under the bus, but mentions that he questioned him saying he would never leave, and Rocky went crying to Vince about it, allegedly. He put over a number of guys, said Cena is light years ahead of everybody on the mic, while not being the greatest in the ring.

[Jaysin]

Listened to it, and damn Orton is a pretty funny guy. He doesn't really throw Rock under the bus, but mentions that he questioned him saying he would never leave, and Rocky went crying to Vince about it, allegedly. He put over a number of guys, said Cena is light years ahead of everybody on the mic, while not being the greatest in the ring.

 

Yeah, I'm still listening to it. I was just saying what I was told about it.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

one of the most successful champions ever and easily their most successful champion in the past ten years.

 

I'd venture that he isn't. Look at the ratings and buyrates.

[ampulator]

Listened to it, and damn Orton is a pretty funny guy. He doesn't really throw Rock under the bus, but mentions that he questioned him saying he would never leave, and Rocky went crying to Vince about it, allegedly. He put over a number of guys, said Cena is light years ahead of everybody on the mic, while not being the greatest in the ring.

Well, if Orton is willing to state it publicly, I don't think it concerns him that much that Rock said it. I doubt Orton's getting any "punishment" from Vince. Rock's been away a long time-all Vince is going to do is massage the Rock's hurt feelings.

 

And this is coming from a guy that prefers the Rock over Orton.

[Nathers7]

Just read that whole argument about Cena, lol. I'm firmly on the Cena has ruined wrestling bandwagon. Just going to say a few things on the matter as this could turn into another 5 page argument.

 

"Cena is the most successful wrestler of the past six years"

Yes he is but do you know why that is? It isn't because he's talented. It's because he wins all the time, has been shoved down our throats and has been given a gimmick that pulls kids in (Never Say Die Superhero). Guarantee if someone better in the ring was given Cena's gimmick and Cena's MegaPush they would be even bigger than Cena is now. He has been the companies biggest star while ratings and buyrates drop in the market that had their most viewers ten years ago (teenage). It's widely known now that UFC is really ruining PPV buyrates for WWE as it has become too kid friendly. I will give Cena this, he is more talented than Orton.

[kipfizh]

I actually really like the movies analogy over the past few pages, and think it does a lot to give Cena a fair bit of credit. Let me explain.

 

Big blockbusters are big business. They cost more, they are produced more slickly, and they generally take more at the box office. Sometimes, they win awards, but usually tied with the production, and less often with the acting/story.

 

More arty films split the field. Some love them, think they are the best thing in the world and trample all over blockbusters. Some don't like them, or don't get them.

 

The WWE is the classic blockbuster. It is deliberately geared towards the more casual fan, the fans that want something fun, but occasionally throws in something deep to cross boundaries. It also pays the best, so despite its shallowness it can attract the top stars in order to boost its own quality, giving a bit of 'best of both worlds'.

 

Other promotions pride themselves differently - on skills and story. Some succeed, some fail. To some, these are the best promotions out there. To others, they are boring. It depends what you want for your viewing pleasure.

 

Now, on to Cena. He is the top face in the WWE, the action hero of the blockbuster. He knows it, the company knows it, and everything he does is tailored to succeeding as that character. He needs just enough depth to be interesting, but not go over the top in that regard.

 

Does anyone think Will Smith is the most talented actor in Hollywood? To go down the more action-based route, how good actors were Stallone, Seagal, Van Damme and others? Not that great. But, and this is a big but, they played the role perfectly. Action films are watched for a bit of escapism, mindless, amusing, fun. This is what Cena represents.

 

To say he is incapable of depth is a little harsh, in my opinion, because in reality we don't know. He was more gritty back in the day, which suggests he has even better mic skills than he is showing, and as for in-ring talent - who knows? I suspect he isn't up there with the best, otherwise he'd be pushing to showcase it more, but he doesn't need to be. Just like the wooden actors who remain a draw in movie blockbusters year after year, he remains a draw to the majority of WWE's target audience. Otherwise he wouldn't be there.

 

The argument that anyone could take his spot isn't true. Plenty of people have been pushed into the main event of sustained periods, and none of them have drawn Cena's merchandise sales. Had they managed that, they would have pushed him down the card.

[SaySo]

I'd venture that he isn't. Look at the ratings and buyrates.

 

I venture to look at revenues.

 

Ratings and buy rates have been on decline, but did revenue follow the same decline over the time period?

[Nathers7]

The argument that anyone could take his spot isn't true. Plenty of people have been pushed into the main event of sustained periods, and none of them have drawn Cena's merchandise sales. Had they managed that, they would have pushed him down the card.

 

I'm getting drawn into debating here lol. Name one Face who has got the same sort of push that Cena did back in 05-06. Also it's the gimmick that gets the merchandise sales, the fact he always comes out in his bright T-Shirts that people are likely to focus on and then buy. I mean a casual fan knows straight away to go buy a Cena shirt as they see people in the audience wearing them. It's like a business domino effect.

[kipfizh]

I'm getting drawn into debating here lol. Name one Face who has got the same sort of push that Cena did back in 05-06. Also it's the gimmick that gets the merchandise sales, the fact he always comes out in his bright T-Shirts that people are likely to focus on and then buy. I mean a casual fan knows straight away to go buy a Cena shirt as they see people in the audience wearing them. It's like a business domino effect.

 

It is very easy to look at a successful gimmick and say 'if anyone else had that gimmick and push, they would be as successful', but that is somewhat misleading.

 

Look at the largest merchandise seller in WWF/E history - Steve Austin. Completely different gimmick, different era, different everything. Not even strictly a face. But no-one has replicated that since, and some have tried.

 

My point is more - the enormous commercial success of an individual is down to a variety of factors - push, yes, of course, plus gimmick, plus the ability to entirely become that gimmick. Austin, for example, sells that gimmick so well because it ties in perfectly with his real personality. In some way, he isn't even acting.

 

With Cena, he has taken that particular superman gimmick (as it is now, it actually wasn't during his initial major push), and rounded it entirely. Don't get me wrong, I think he is overblown now, and it wouldn't hurt his character to not be last on the card every single time.

 

It is a bit 'chicken and the egg'. Has no other face received the extended push Cena has because Cena is seen as the top guy, no matter what (unfair), or because their pushes were pulled after shorter times because the upward curve of buyrates/merchandise wasn't as sharp as Cena's was (fair)? I guess we don't know the answer to that question.

[juggaloninjalee]

Cena was selling a ton of merchandise before his superman push. Back when he was rapping on Smackdown and feuding with Eddie Guerrero he was out selling most of the top WWE stars.

 

Hulk Hogan had a good cast of superstars around him in his day.

 

Steve Austin had the Rock, Bret Hart, HBK, Jericho, and Triple H during his peak.

 

HBK had Deisel, Bret Hart, and Steve Austin while he was on top. This is regarded as the lowest point for the WWF. Low ratings and bad buy rates.

 

Cena has had Orton, Triple H, and Jericho. I would argue Cena has had the lowest amount of help in his tenure as being the top guy. Plus he has been competing against the UFC boom in the last few years.

 

TNA has shown that more adult oriented wrestling doesn't sell. So that argument doesn't work on me I feel.

 

Cena has helped carry this company and earned his spot on top. None of the other guys on the roster could have done what Cena has done.

[Nathers7]

Cena was selling a ton of merchandise before his superman push. Back when he was rapping on Smackdown and feuding with Eddie Guerrero he was out selling most of the top WWE stars.

 

Cena has had Orton, Triple H, and Jericho. I would argue Cena has had the lowest amount of help in his tenure as being the top guy. Plus he has been competing against the UFC boom in the last few years.

 

TNA has shown that more adult oriented wrestling doesn't sell. So that argument doesn't work on me I feel.

 

I appreciate the first point you make which is partly true, the next two I don't agree with at all. The only reason Cena hasn't had top people around him is because WWE don't know how to create new stars anymore and because they had pushed Cena so high that no one could be seen as near his level. And the majority of ones that have been pushed were pushed only because of their look. I mean look at WWE at the minute, there's Cena, then Orton, then everyone else. That is an awful business plan to rely on just one guy as it's now been proven that Orton can't draw on Smackdown going off the ratings they've been getting.

 

TNA have shown adult orientated wrestling fails only because they haven't been booking it properly. Bringing in Hogan and Bischoff and failing to push their most talented guys is why they've failed not because it's adult orientated. I never said that WWE need to go back to adult orientated but they need to try and push that market aswell as kids or they will continue to lose ratings and buyrates. I know alot of people here where I live who have stopped watching because it's so repetitive, it's the same thing with Cena on top over and over. The Nexus pulled some people back in but they totally ruined that angle aswell with Cena burying all of them, with that stupid fired angle they done.

[cappyboy]

 

TNA has shown that more adult oriented wrestling doesn't sell. So that argument doesn't work on me I feel.

 

 

To be fair, no. They haven't. I agree that the adult oriented thing is over-rated and folks that rage against the PG style are being more limiting than they suggest the PG product is. But what TNA has shown is that disorganized manangement and failure to create an identity doesn't sell. Look at Ring of Honor. They combine the adult oriented product with classic old school principles and sell like hotcakes within their target market. They have a strong identity that their people hunger for. ECW has the legacy they do in part because they knew exactly what they were and refused to apologize for it. WWE has been the monopoly for so many years because they can expertly establish an identity and adapt it when time demands. They may display their growing pains in the middle of a shift but they know how to come out of it.

 

TNA struggles because they try to be a bunch of me too iguanas. They remind me of a promo Dusty Rhodes once cut on Arn Arnderson. The Dream told Arn the reason Double A never got ahead was that he was "a walk behinder. And when you're a walk behinder, the view never changes." When was the last time the view changed for TNA? What product elements they have or don't have doesn't matter. The view won't change for TNA until they quit being walk behinders and find their own path the way the RoH's, ECW's and WWE's have.

[Nathers7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPndvI7jylM

 

*SPOILERS*

 

Videos of next week's Raw if anyone wanted to see, really like where they're going with this angle.

[juggaloninjalee]

My only point about TNA having an adult product was that it hasn't helped them compared to how they were before they tried the EV2.0 or whatever it was called. Whether you are PG or R people watch wrestling for a good show. To me the PG or R isn't important.

 

Being a Wrestling Superstar is about how much money you draw. Cena is the top in that regard and no I don't think anyone could do what he has done given they were booked the same. Cena has talents that others don't. He connects with a crowd. Performs well under pressure and in front of a hostile crowd. He can do improv. He is great on the mic (not the best though). He is also an under rated in ring performer.

 

If you were starting a wrestling company today and could bring Cena in, it would be stupid of you to pass up bringing in John Cena as your 1st choice. Cena out draws any wrestler in the world right now.

[Nathers7]

My only point about TNA having an adult product was that it hasn't helped them compared to how they were before they tried the EV2.0 or whatever it was called. Whether you are PG or R people watch wrestling for a good show. To me the PG or R isn't important.

 

Being a Wrestling Superstar is about how much money you draw. Cena is the top in that regard and no I don't think anyone could do what he has done given they were booked the same. Cena has talents that others don't. He connects with a crowd. Performs well under pressure and in front of a hostile crowd. He can do improv. He is great on the mic (not the best though). He is also an under rated in ring performer.

 

If you were starting a wrestling company today and could bring Cena in, it would be stupid of you to pass up bringing in John Cena as your 1st choice. Cena out draws any wrestler in the world right now.

 

I've had a discussion like this with people who agree and who disagree, everyone in the crowd who boos Cena every single week agrees with my point of view, everyone who cheers agrees with your point of view. I've already explained the reason why I believe Cena is where he is, that's my opinion and I doubt it will ever change. Everything I've bolded is your opinion and while I think it's ridiculous, it probably won't change either.

 

If you have someone win all the time and give a guy a gimmick similar to Cena they will get over and they will draw. I don't know how you can disagree with that, as it has worked in pro wrestling 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago. The only reason he outdraws anyone else is because no one has been pushed as much as he has in the last 12 years, The Rock wasn't pushed like Cena was. Rock lost clean alot. Cena NEVER loses clean. Yet who's the bigger star? I would say Rock.

[juggaloninjalee]

I've had a discussion like this with people who agree and who disagree, everyone in the crowd who boos Cena every single week agrees with my point of view, everyone who cheers agrees with your point of view. I've already explained the reason why I believe Cena is where he is, that's my opinion and I doubt it will ever change. Everything I've bolded is your opinion and while I think it's ridiculous, it probably won't change either.

 

If you have someone win all the time and give a guy a gimmick similar to Cena they will get over and they will draw. I don't know how you can disagree with that, as it has worked in pro wrestling 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago. The only reason he outdraws anyone else is because no one has been pushed as much as he has in the last 12 years, The Rock wasn't pushed like Cena was. Rock lost clean alot. Cena NEVER loses clean. Yet who's the bigger star? I would say Rock.

 

First off I am one of the people who would boo Cena. I am tired of the act but I do realize he got over for many reasons other than being a big guy that Vince wanted to push.

 

So if the Rock is more over and lost clean a lot then how can Cena be so over with a different formula?

 

The Ultimate Warrior got the Cena push and couldn't maintain the push even though he kept getting forced on fans.

 

Jeff Jarrett got the superman push in TNA but didn't get hugely over.

 

Tatanka in the 90s got the superman push but didn't get as big as Cena.

 

I'd argue only Goldberg was able to get mega over with the superman push and maintain it.

[cappyboy]

 

Being a Wrestling Superstar is about how much money you draw. Cena is the top in that regard and no I don't think anyone could do what he has done given they were booked the same. Cena has talents that others don't. He connects with a crowd. Performs well under pressure and in front of a hostile crowd. He can do improv. He is great on the mic (not the best though). He is also an under rated in ring performer.

 

Definitely agree with you here. And what's more I think his critics under-estimate him as an entertainer as well. Sure you can look at his Superman gimmick and think or anyone can do that. And while I generally hesitate at those kinds of generalizations, I tend to agree with them. Anybody could do that gimmick. The problem is how does an Anybody get to the point they want him to.

 

With a guy like Cena, it's simple how he got there. He's excelled at what was asked of him. Don't look at just the frustrating current gimmick. Look at the totality of his career. Think back to when he was first called up and was "the rookie with ruthless aggression" and he was doing the human tape recorder bit. A lot of guys could have half-hearted that and never been heard from at the national level ever again. Cena ran with it and made it a happy memory for people. Or the whole Doctor of Thuganomics thing. The rap gimmick was kind of outdated when they had him doing it. But again he ran with it and where some guys might have been Red Roostered by that gimmick, he made it work. The guy garnered a lot of confidence by being able to take lemons and make lemonade. And yeah, Punk was probably right too. He probably had to excel at kissing butts backstage as well.

 

Would it be ever better if he were a world beater in the ring as well like an HBK was in his prime? Of course. But what matters most in WWE is being able to talk the talk and few I've seen have done it as consistently well as Cena. Why shouldn't the masses back Cena? He had them on his side even when the material the E was giving him could and arguably should have ruined him in their eyes. If John Cena hasn't earned where he is, who has?

[lazorbeak]

I've had a discussion like this with people who agree and who disagree, everyone in the crowd who boos Cena every single week agrees with my point of view, everyone who cheers agrees with your point of view. I've already explained the reason why I believe Cena is where he is, that's my opinion and I doubt it will ever change. Everything I've bolded is your opinion and while I think it's ridiculous, it probably won't change either.

 

If you have someone win all the time and give a guy a gimmick similar to Cena they will get over and they will draw. I don't know how you can disagree with that, as it has worked in pro wrestling 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago. The only reason he outdraws anyone else is because no one has been pushed as much as he has in the last 12 years, The Rock wasn't pushed like Cena was. Rock lost clean alot. Cena NEVER loses clean. Yet who's the bigger star? I would say Rock.

 

Yes, Rock is the bigger star, but really, did Rock lose clean "alot"? I mean I guess it depends on your definition but I wouldn't call the chairman of the company costing you title matches at two consecutive wrestlemanias "clean" losses. Rock was never made to look superhuman but he wasn't taking the fall without some interference or heel chicanery. Austin was even worse, as he was built up as unstoppable and it was years before he'd take somewhat clean losses to anybody.

 

Meanwhile, Cena's doing the same thing. He lost to Miz at Wrestlemania (due to interference), he put over Wade Barrett and Sheamus on PPV matches in 2010. This perception that Cena "never loses" or that this is a new phenomenon among WWE top guys is just ridiculous because frankly, Cena has shown time and again that he is personally willing to put anybody over, unlike previous WWE top guys (Austin, Warrior, HBK), who were incredibly protective of their character and refused to lose unless it was to somebody they rode with or was already so over that they wouldn't lose heat.

 

And no, giving someone else Cena's gimmick is no guarantee that they will "draw." It's been proven time and again that just building somebody up isn't enough. Goldberg's a good parallel but he also won the title only once and was at his peak for maybe two years, maximum, and was unable to carry programs that required him to do anything more than growl and spear people. But Glacier had an undefeated streak. So did Umaga. So did Bobby Lashley. So did CM Punk for goodness sake. So did plenty of other wrestlers. None of them instantly became mega-over franchise guys. Well, except Brock Lesnar, but he got over on his physique and skill as much as strong booking.

 

Also, isn't Cena a "Heyman guy," at least at first? I mean he rose up during that period Heyman was booking in 2002, and worked with Lesnar in April '03. And they built him up really slowly, considering his overness at the time. He was already getting reactions at the same level of Benoit leading into the road to Wrestlemania 20, but they kept him out of the main event by feeding the Big Show to him, and then waiting an entire year for him to win the World title at Wrestlemania 21.

[Nathers7]

First off I am one of the people who would boo Cena. I am tired of the act but I do realize he got over for many reasons other than being a big guy that Vince wanted to push.

 

So if the Rock is more over and lost clean a lot then how can Cena be so over with a different formula?

 

The Ultimate Warrior got the Cena push and couldn't maintain the push even though he kept getting forced on fans.

 

Jeff Jarrett got the superman push in TNA but didn't get hugely over.

 

Tatanka in the 90s got the superman push but didn't get as big as Cena.

 

I'd argue only Goldberg was able to get mega over with the superman push and maintain it.

 

Rock got over because they let him be himself, I was watching a documentary about the Monday night wars and they said they let Rock and Austin be themselves and didn't give them a gimmick, they got over their own way, through talent alone. Austin was supposed to be pushed as a heel but the badder he got, the more people cheered so they ran with it. (Although he barely ever lost)

 

To compare Tatanka's push with Cena's is laughable. Tatanka never beat a huge star with the exception of Michaels and that was by countout. Jarrett lost clean alot to Styles at the beginning of TNA. A push in TNA is also alot different from a push in WWE who have alot more viewers. Warrior's push didn't work because it was blatantly clear how untalented he was and that he was an ******* backstage.

 

Also lazorbeak you clearly have no idea what I'm on about, losing and losing clean are two different concepts, the only person Cena properly put over was Sheamus. Rock even put over the Hurricane at one point.

[Nathers7]

Yes, Rock is the bigger star, but really, did Rock lose clean "alot"? I mean I guess it depends on your definition but I wouldn't call the chairman of the company costing you title matches at two consecutive wrestlemanias "clean" losses. Rock was never made to look superhuman but he wasn't taking the fall without some interference or heel chicanery. Austin was even worse, as he was built up as unstoppable and it was years before he'd take somewhat clean losses to anybody.

 

Meanwhile, Cena's doing the same thing. He lost to Miz at Wrestlemania (due to interference), he put over Wade Barrett and Sheamus on PPV matches in 2010. This perception that Cena "never loses" or that this is a new phenomenon among WWE top guys is just ridiculous because frankly, Cena has shown time and again that he is personally willing to put anybody over, unlike previous WWE top guys (Austin, Warrior, HBK), who were incredibly protective of their character and refused to lose unless it was to somebody they rode with or was already so over that they wouldn't lose heat.

And no, giving someone else Cena's gimmick is no guarantee that they will "draw." It's been proven time and again that just building somebody up isn't enough. Goldberg's a good parallel but he also won the title only once and was at his peak for maybe two years, maximum, and was unable to carry programs that required him to do anything more than growl and spear people. But Glacier had an undefeated streak. So did Umaga. So did Bobby Lashley. So did CM Punk for goodness sake. So did plenty of other wrestlers. None of them instantly became mega-over franchise guys. Well, except Brock Lesnar, but he got over on his physique and skill as much as strong booking.

 

Also, isn't Cena a "Heyman guy," at least at first? I mean he rose up during that period Heyman was booking in 2002, and worked with Lesnar in April '03. And they built him up really slowly, considering his overness at the time. He was already getting reactions at the same level of Benoit leading into the road to Wrestlemania 20, but they kept him out of the main event by feeding the Big Show to him, and then waiting an entire year for him to win the World title at Wrestlemania 21.

 

None of those guys you mentioned got the same push Cena has. Like I have said numerous times already . Cena went over JBL, Jericho, Angle, Triple H, Edge and more in the space of a year sometimes in overwhelming situations and the two times he lost on PPV where so much was against him that it would have been ridiculous to have him win. He actually came through an elimination chamber and when Edge cashed in he still managed to kick out of a spear. I mean how invincible did they want Cena to get?

[juggaloninjalee]

Definitely agree with you here. And what's more I think his critics under-estimate him as an entertainer as well. Sure you can look at his Superman gimmick and think or anyone can do that. And while I generally hesitate at those kinds of generalizations, I tend to agree with them. Anybody could do that gimmick. The problem is how does an Anybody get to the point they want him to.

 

With a guy like Cena, it's simple how he got there. He's excelled at what was asked of him. Don't look at just the frustrating current gimmick. Look at the totality of his career. Think back to when he was first called up and was "the rookie with ruthless aggression" and he was doing the human tape recorder bit. A lot of guys could have half-hearted that and never been heard from at the national level ever again. Cena ran with it and made it a happy memory for people. Or the whole Doctor of Thuganomics thing. The rap gimmick was kind of outdated when they had him doing it. But again he ran with it and where some guys might have been Red Roostered by that gimmick, he made it work. The guy garnered a lot of confidence by being able to take lemons and make lemonade. And yeah, Punk was probably right too. He probably had to excel at kissing butts backstage as well.

 

Would it be ever better if he were a world beater in the ring as well like an HBK was in his prime? Of course. But what matters most in WWE is being able to talk the talk and few I've seen have done it as consistently well as Cena. Why shouldn't the masses back Cena? He had them on his side even when the material the E was giving him could and arguably should have ruined him in their eyes. If John Cena hasn't earned where he is, who has?

 

I agree with this.

 

BG James and K-Kwik didn't get over rapping. Cena made the best of it.

 

When Cena was still in UPW everyone in the industry was thinking he would be a super star. Don't believe me you can even look back at old EWR diaries back then and old website postings about the guy.

 

I am not saying he is the best on the mic because I feel CM Punk is better. Not saying he is better in the ring because Chris Jericho is better. He does however have the look and has worked harder to get where he is than anyone else. This gimmick isn't what got him where he is either.

 

Hulk Hogan will go down as one of the best wrestlers of all time and he was a lot like Cena now.

 

WWF always books their faces strong. Heels typically win dirty. Rock lost clean when he was a heel but as a face not really. Same for HBK as a heel he won dirty and as a face he won clean.