The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[ampulator]

Something I found funny in the past week:

 

Dirt sheetz report that Triple H is trying to keep Mick Foley off of TV because he's never liked him and has been jealous.

 

The following Monday, Mick Foley is featured prominently on Raw with a tease to be featured in the same capacity on Smackdown.

That's bull. Foley and Triple H has worked many times before, together, and it wasn't a problem then, and it didn't become a problem later.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Yeah no. Punk, bryan and Kane are no where near Cena's level. They're not even near HHH's level.

 

HHH has a huge legacy behind him right now, and Cena's isn't far from that either. Their statuses within the realms of sports entertainment are far above average. Bryan and Punk are being made right now. They have a rich wrestling history too and have every fundamental of wrestling and sports entertainment down. But of course in a way they aren't at HHH's level, in terms of experience and clout with the company.

 

 

So on that previous topic, I gotta say... yeah, they can keep Cena main-eventing all year. Sure let's go with that. When will be the green light to let two different talents close the show? When Cena gets injured? When someone finally gets to said level of his, which may take forever with the way they're doing things? Punk is about the closest thing they got to Cena right now, been champion for 8+ months and they still can't have him close the darned show. Not hugely bothered about this but am concerned nonetheless.

[justtxyank]

That's bull. Foley and Triple H has worked many times before, together, and it wasn't a problem then, and it didn't become a problem later.

 

There have been reports for years that Triple H doesn't like when Vince brings Foley to tv.

[djthefunkchris]

The thing is, it's a Wrestling show, not an actual sport. As someone else threw out there, it's like putting on a music concert, or a variety show, a circus act, etc. IF your not looking at it like that, you're not looking at it as most people do. IF your trying to look at it as an actual contest, and think the rest of the world is following your thoughts on this, your only kidding yourself. While reading some of these comments, it's like most here believe this is an actual sport...

 

It's a show, and the top act is Cena, like it or not. I can't wait til' the day more people are there with him, but right now that's not the case.

 

Titles are a prop/focal point for feuds and elevating people up. Cena no longer needs the title for people to stay invested. In the future he might, but right now it's not needed. The average guy/gal doesn't look at the order of the card and go "What the heck is this!! Does the title mean nothing??!!" because the average fan is more interested in their favorite worker, then who is fighting over the title... Who is fighting over the title is the way to get them interested. Putting someone last on the card doesn't make the average person go "Woah, wait a minute here... These guys are going on last, so that makes them the people I should be more interested in!"

 

I keep saying I like the way they are utilizing Cena and keeping him away from the belts. This is because it IS getting people interested in them. It IS getting people that don't know their indie history invested, and it IS keeping them from having to make a decision on who is going to win or lose against Cena. Smart.... in the fact that they keep Cena their biggest draw in there, and build other's to be big draws. IF Cena was in there for the belts, then it would be bad, as he would have to win more then lose, and people wouldn't get as invested in the "other guy" as they are now.

 

Like it or not, because of the holders of the titles, the Main Event titles are more like Mid-Card right now... The midcard titles like low card titles, and that is what they are working with.`

[Fire]

I was there live, just now getting to a computer deal with No Way Out. I know my predictions were OFF. My personal feeling from the show was that the recent events leading to the Pay per view killed the event.

 

The Brodus Clay/David Otunga match was just a lets see if we can get the crowd going match. The ending with Otunga standing outside the ring killed the match. (and I am sorry, and maybe it's because I am not a kid but in seeing Clay last year before this dancing fool/idot gimmick I can't get behind. Shelton Benjamin had a gimmick close to this years ago right)

 

Shamus/Ziggler was ok but too many blown spots and with Ziggler only getting close after big spots made the match drag a bit. Ziggler does try though.

 

Santino Marella/Ricardo Rodriguez tux match: What a way to kill a crowd.

 

The Christian/Rhodes match was a good match but after the previous match the crowd just was not there. They did as best they could.

 

The #1 contenders match for the tag titles: I was walking to my seat and notices a graphic on the screen saying this was going to happen. This was nothing more then filler and it showed. The group I was with went to buy shirts and the guy in front of me was playing games on his phone during this match.

 

Now they went into the HHH/Brock issue video and when they did that, you just knew what was next. And what a pop for HHH, but while it was great to see him they could have saved this for Raw.

 

The Divas title match was fine for what it was but again after getting the crowd hot with HHH the match killed the building. Biggest pop being Phoneix and her show off strength.

 

Sin Cara vs. Hunico was another obvious filler due to the recent events, crowd was not behind the match.

 

Next was the Punk/Bryan/Kane match and Punk got the best reaction of the three as to be expected. While I like all three this match never got to the level you should expect for a WWE title match from these three. The start of fun with Punk and Bryan kicking the crap out of Kane but after that it just turned into multiple singles matches with each taking turns sitting outside the ring. (Punk/Bryan segments got the best reaction) Add to the fact that they built the match around AJ, a "when is AJ going to arrive" question took away from the match. At least she did next to nothing in it. While it was an ok match, with what happend throughout the show, the crowd was not as hot as it could have been.

 

Next it was time for the Ryback squash

 

Then of course we had the main event and while the crowd was into the match it was nothing more then "giant vs. good guy paint by numbers" match, but the crowd was into this match the entire way.

 

Overall: I don't know how it came across on screen but the backstage interviews did not come across well in the arena. The crowd was dying for Ryder ALL NIGHT, to see how little they gave him to the roster to the ring move was a let down. In the end the show was ok at best and I will most likely buy the DVD because I was there, but if you missed it don't bother buying the replay.

 

Edit: I will be at the June 25 Raw, hope that goes better.

[Hyde Hill]

The thing is, it's a Wrestling show, not an actual sport. As someone else threw out there, it's like putting on a music concert, or a variety show, a circus act, etc. IF your not looking at it like that, you're not looking at it as most people do. IF your trying to look at it as an actual contest, and think the rest of the world is following your thoughts on this, your only kidding yourself. While reading some of these comments, it's like most here believe this is an actual sport...

 

It's a show, and the top act is Cena, like it or not. I can't wait til' the day more people are there with him, but right now that's not the case.

 

Titles are a prop/focal point for feuds and elevating people up. Cena no longer needs the title for people to stay invested. In the future he might, but right now it's not needed. The average guy/gal doesn't look at the order of the card and go "What the heck is this!! Does the title mean nothing??!!" because the average fan is more interested in their favorite worker, then who is fighting over the title... Who is fighting over the title is the way to get them interested. Putting someone last on the card doesn't make the average person go "Woah, wait a minute here... These guys are going on last, so that makes them the people I should be more interested in!"

 

I keep saying I like the way they are utilizing Cena and keeping him away from the belts. This is because it IS getting people interested in them. It IS getting people that don't know their indie history invested, and it IS keeping them from having to make a decision on who is going to win or lose against Cena. Smart.... in the fact that they keep Cena their biggest draw in there, and build other's to be big draws. IF Cena was in there for the belts, then it would be bad, as he would have to win more then lose, and people wouldn't get as invested in the "other guy" as they are now.

 

Like it or not, because of the holders of the titles, the Main Event titles are more like Mid-Card right now... The midcard titles like low card titles, and that is what they are working with.`

 

I think that is the disputed part on both a conscious and subconscious level. Plus the extra time and attention the main event spot gets throughout the week and the ppv.

[ampulator]

There have been reports for years that Triple H doesn't like when Vince brings Foley to tv.

That's a fair point, but they never had problems working together. Triple H may have had an ideological reason against Foley, but I don't think it's a person reason. He does what's right for business.

[justtxyank]

That's a fair point, but they never had problems working together. Triple H may have had an ideological reason against Foley, but I don't think it's a person reason. He does what's right for business.

 

His problems allegedly were from after Foley retiring feeling threatened if Foley came back on tv and popped ratings. There have long been reports that HHH worked behind the scenes to downplay Foley's contributions and sabotage his tv returns, even going so far as to try to convince McMahon not rehire him at various points post-retirement.

 

Whether any of that is true is obviously hard to prove.

[lazorbeak]

Putting someone last on the card doesn't make the average person go "Woah, wait a minute here... These guys are going on last, so that makes them the people I should be more interested in!"

 

I think that is the disputed part on both a conscious and subconscious level. Plus the extra time and attention the main event spot gets throughout the week and the ppv.

 

As Hyde mentioned, yes, it does. The main event is what the show builds up to, and the crowd and viewing audience do recognize it as the most important thing on the show. Unconsciously that's a natural reaction to the fact that pretty much all media is structured this way, from the UFC to rock concerts, and consciously from the time and effort spent promoting the main event both before and during the show.

[bigtplaystew]

His problems allegedly were from after Foley retiring feeling threatened if Foley came back on tv and popped ratings. There have long been reports that HHH worked behind the scenes to downplay Foley's contributions and sabotage his tv returns, even going so far as to try to convince McMahon not rehire him at various points post-retirement.

 

Whether any of that is true is obviously hard to prove.

 

I don't buy too much into "reports" but they definitely have taken veiled shots at each other over the years. HHH trashed Foley pretty hard on Sirus/XM's Opie and Anthony radio show right before Foley came back. A lot of fans brushed it off (as did I) as HHH just playing dumb to sell the comeback. Foley took some shots at HHH before that in hardcore diaries and Countdown to Lockdown. Is it malicious or is it good natured ribbing between friends?

 

I don't wanna even try to wrap my head around what kind of a relationship they might have. It's no one's business really. The wrestling business breeds strange minds. As close as many guys are to each other, you really are competing directly with just about the entire roster for a better spot. Every guy in WWE wants a better spot... except maybe Cena who I'm sure is at least a little concerned whenever his spot has been and will be in danger. Friends can become enemies and the line between them becomes very thin in an environment like that.

 

 

I'm with Amp on this one. I find it hard to believe Foley would be on TV if HHH didn't want him to be. If HHH wants no Foley anymore ever he can probably get that done. This is obviously not the case. The two have proven no matter how they feel about each other they'll certainly work together and in a few cases have done it very well.

[djthefunkchris]

As Hyde mentioned, yes, it does. The main event is what the show builds up to, and the crowd and viewing audience do recognize it as the most important thing on the show. Unconsciously that's a natural reaction to the fact that pretty much all media is structured this way, from the UFC to rock concerts, and consciously from the time and effort spent promoting the main event both before and during the show.

 

@Hyde as well.

 

I guess my point is that switching them around for the PPV, isn't going to make anyone decide it's more important... when the build wasn't that way.

 

I agree that everything is structured that way (least important to most important) to an extent, but you have to have points of interest in a three hour show, that keeps the majority of the audience from getting bored (not that it always works out that way).

 

However, just because you switch Sheamus match with Cena's (for example), doesn't make anyone care about Sheamus more then Cena. He has to be built to be cared about more, and over half of that is on Sheamus (or Punk, Bryan, Whomever).

 

In other words, there is no reason (not even for the title), to put anyone on "after" Cena... but they could ... For this and most of the other PPV's this year, it just wouldn't have made sense. I realize other people thinks it does, but you have the "Authority" figures job on the line, and that topples the importance of a title, that could be effected at any time by the authority figure (or lack there-of).

 

My point has been the same though... Cena is head and shoulders over them in overness... No matter if you choose to believe it or not. He has entertaining match's with non-wrestlers, and no matter if you liked it or not, the crowd sure seems to eat it up every time I've watched it. So back the first point I made, which is, like it or not, Cena is more important and that's why he main events.... HE is ABOVE the titles, and probably will be for the next decade if he so chooses to be.

[moon_lit_tears]

See I guess for me in the PPVs I don't really care how it's structured as long as it's entertaining for most of the show.

 

The "main event" Well yes that would automatically mean the finale I suppose, but really Why do people make a big deal out of it?

 

Opening with a huge match is pretty cool. Why not?

 

What's wrong with opening with a bang, having a steady show of medium matches and some action and closing with a bang?

 

I think it's a great idea and I like how this PPV flowed.

[lazorbeak]

In other words, there is no reason (not even for the title), to put anyone on "after" Cena... but they could ... For this and most of the other PPV's this year, it just wouldn't have made sense. I realize other people thinks it does, but you have the "Authority" figures job on the line, and that topples the importance of a title, that could be effected at any time by the authority figure (or lack there-of).

 

I understand and there is a precedent for it; when Austin would wrestle someone relating to the Mr. McMahon feud, it didn't matter that Undertaker and Rock were wrestling for the title, so I don't have any issue with that. My point was that card position does matter when it comes to the final spot, and in effect you are telling the audience "this is the most important thing" when it closes a show.

 

My point has been the same though... Cena is head and shoulders over them in overness... No matter if you choose to believe it or not. He has entertaining match's with non-wrestlers, and no matter if you liked it or not, the crowd sure seems to eat it up every time I've watched it. So back the first point I made, which is, like it or not, Cena is more important and that's why he main events.... HE is ABOVE the titles, and probably will be for the next decade if he so chooses to be.

 

This is the problem. Arguing that it doesn't make sense to not put Cena on every main event because he's "head and shoulders" above the rest of the card. Even going beyond the fact that there's basically nothing to back up such a statement, and PPV audiences have consistently shown more interest in Daniel Bryan, CM Punk, and even Dolph Ziggler at live events. Cena may be an ambassador for the business based on his status as a D-list action hero and public persona, but is he really that much more over than CM Punk or Randy Orton or any of those guys when it comes to performing in front of a crowd?

 

And even if we assume, despite all appearances, that somehow Cena is head and shoulders above everyone else when it comes to "overness," how does treating him like the biggest thing on the show do anything but look like more "same old, same old" booking that keeps the top guy from the past 7 years on top some more? What's the positive outcome of admitting that there is a glass ceiling and not letting anyone else get to that level?

 

Wrestling fans, like fans of most competitive sports, like new names at the top. Fans will cheer for the Ultimate Warrior or the Rock or Jeff Hardy or Randy Orton or CM Punk over the status quo Hogan, Austin, or Cena, because they can bring something new to the table, and sending the message that Cena's the most important guy even when he's killing time wrestling comedy matches against authority figures is ultimately destructive.

[djthefunkchris]

See I guess for me in the PPVs I don't really care how it's structured as long as it's entertaining for most of the show.

 

The "main event" Well yes that would automatically mean the finale I suppose, but really Why do people make a big deal out of it?

 

Opening with a huge match is pretty cool. Why not?

 

What's wrong with opening with a bang, having a steady show of medium matches and some action and closing with a bang?

 

I think it's a great idea and I like how this PPV flowed.

 

I think if the match wasn't a huge gimmick "Your Fired" match, it could have been lowered down the card (Talking about Cena's match).

 

Here's the thing... IN order to get people invested in other people, they have to come on BEFORE people they are already invested in, or they can (possibly) tune out or zone out, or however you want to look at it. Keeping Cena at the top of the card, ensures them that people wanting to see Cena in action are also going to watch the other match's leading up to it.

[Hyde Hill]

See I guess for me in the PPVs I don't really care how it's structured as long as it's entertaining for most of the show.

 

The "main event" Well yes that would automatically mean the finale I suppose, but really Why do people make a big deal out of it?

 

Opening with a huge match is pretty cool. Why not?

 

What's wrong with opening with a bang, having a steady show of medium matches and some action and closing with a bang?

 

I think it's a great idea and I like how this PPV flowed.

 

I am also of the general opinion that the opener is the third most important match, so I don't get upset when people complain about that.

 

@dj Again it's nothing against Cena or whether or not he is past the belts at this point or delivers, but the opinion that having other guys be the ME could possibly help in the elevation process towards Cena level.

 

As far as people tuning out you don't put say Kofi vs Swagger in that spot aka people that most fans have little reason to get behind atm but guys who are currently getting a push and given a reason to get behind like Punk, Bryan, Sheamus and/or the more established Kane, Show, Orton to help the first three get even closer to Cena level.

 

In the end both are correct and it is all about finding the right time to elevate to the right level. For some the long current Cena run as ME is wasting opportunities to help elevate some guys that still need it and/or can get elevated and hurting title prestige aka the value of the crutch/prop. Its getting kind off like Jarrett in early TNA or Trips early 2000s only without the belt on Cena which makes it worse in some aspects and less worse in others.

[djthefunkchris]

I am also of the general opinion that the opener is the third most important match, so I don't get upset when people complain about that.

 

@dj Again it's nothing against Cena or whether or not he is past the belts at this point or delivers, but the opinion that having other guys be the ME could possibly help in the elevation process towards Cena level.

 

That's a gamble. Why not make sure they are at least watched by those only interested in Cena, and therefore becoming invested.

 

The overall best thing to do would be to have Cena not even be on the card... but that's not a smart move at all either.

 

@Lazor, there have been reports of all those same people losing viewers when on TV, so if you have other reports you would like to share, as I only have second hand information so far on that, I would really appreciate it.

 

Realize, that I'm only stating what I think they are doing here... It's just my opinion (Compare me to Jim Cornette, I don't care... heck, I actually like him). I WANT all these other guys, Punk, Bryan... Well, I don't care for Ziggler, think he's a disaster waiting to happen to be honest... going to hurt himself or someone else I thinks... But there is a handful of people in WWE right now whom I would love to see shine... I've had high hopes for Punk ever since WWE ECW brand, and so far I've been pretty happy with him. Bryan is a breath of fresh air so desperately needed right now.

 

I just think making dawn sure they shine (which means doing the HBK thing to them), having them lower on the card and stealing the show EVERY TIME is going to get them over almost certainly, unless they themselves somehow drop the ball.

 

When they see Cena viewers dropping when Cena goes on, and viewers tuning for the other's, that's when you will see a change. That's how I would do it....

[Hyde Hill]

Yeah we don't have minute by minutes so we can't really rely on reports (btw Michaels terrible draw in but great draw keeper). It's like I said when do you pull the trigger and they are kind of wasting it. It won't hurt Cena and can only help them in my opinion. And even if they do draw less then Cena that is always the case when you are elevating a guy as you are still elevating him. When they where elevating Austin for instance in '96 - 97 WWE was doing their worst numbers ever.

 

One other thing, apart from general IWC love for Punk, Bryan, atm Ziggler, is that what they are doing is indicative of what WWE has been doing for a long time now and that is cannibalizing themselves and people are picking up on that on a (sub)conscious level. But that is a whole other debate and would take me a couple of hours to explain and is more a personal theory.

[djthefunkchris]

Yeah we don't have minute by minutes so we can't really rely on reports (btw Michaels terrible draw in but great draw keeper). It's like I said when do you pull the trigger and they are kind of wasting it. It won't hurt Cena and can only help them in my opinion. And even if they do draw less then Cena that is always the case when you are elevating a guy as you are still elevating him. When they where elevating Austin for instance in '96 - 97 WWE was doing their worst numbers ever.

 

One other thing, apart from general IWC love for Punk, Bryan, atm Ziggler, is that what they are doing is indicative of what WWE has been doing for a long time now and that is cannibalizing themselves and people are picking up on that on a (sub)conscious level. But that is a whole other debate and would take me a couple of hours to explain and is more a personal theory.

 

Having Cena, basically outside of that, at least to me, seems to stopping that effect (I understand your theory:)). Throwin' in Kane was a good idea to me, for the Bryan/Punk feud. I honestly would like a long drawn out, slow build, leading up to Wrestlemania, with Bryan and Punk.

 

Keep Cena away from the title's right now. Let them breath, let them evolve. I wouldn't mind seeing Cena team up with someone for Tag Team titles now that this other thing is over with.

[Hyde Hill]

Apparently they are already promoting Cena for a title match at night of champions. Take a wild stab at which one. And yeah I totally understand your point about Cena as well.

[djthefunkchris]

Apparently they are already promoting Cena for a title match at night of champions. Take a wild stab at which one. And yeah I totally understand your point about Cena as well.

 

The only one he has really been involved in has been Punks, up til' when Punk retained it. I hope I'm wrong, but somehow your wording makes me think I'm right...

 

This is what I don't want though.

[Astil]

Apparently they are already promoting Cena for a title match at night of champions. Take a wild stab at which one. And yeah I totally understand your point about Cena as well.

 

So Brock's going to be at NoC. Sweet.

[Hyde Hill]

Or Rock permitting filming schedules. They haven't officially promoted which title yet though. Just airing ads in Boston area where it will be held that he will be going after the title. But yeah 95 % chance it will be the WWE title and Punk will have prolly dropped it by then if they want to go 1 vs 1.

[Astil]

Or Rock permitting filming schedules. They haven't officially promoted which title yet though. Just airing ads in Boston area where it will be held that he will be going after the title. But yeah 95 % chance it will be the WWE title and Punk will have prolly dropped it by then if they want to go 1 vs 1.

 

Rock vs. Punk at Summerslam, Rock going over?

[TakerNGN74]

The Brodus Clay/David Otunga match was just a lets see if we can get the crowd going match. The ending with Otunga standing outside the ring killed the match. (and I am sorry, and maybe it's because I am not a kid but in seeing Clay last year before this dancing fool/idot gimmick I can't get behind. Shelton Benjamin had a gimmick close to this years ago right)

 

Wrong Shelton Benjamin never had a gimmick like that because The WWE had him in the same gimmick thoughout his entire WWE run. I think your thinking about Ernest The Cat Miller because Ernest had the same exact music back then that Clay has now. I understand what you are saying that the gimmick has been done but not with the guy that you had mentioned.

[jjohns44]

^ Technically they did try to give him something different with Shelton's gimmick, but it didn't last long at all, it was Shelton and "his mama" but instead of Brodus just talking about her, Shelton would bring her to ringside.

 

 

I never thought I'd say it, but now that I've finally been getting used to Miz, now they don't even use him. I think a stable with him in it might be pretty cool, they haven't really used a stable in a long time. I was thinkin something with Swagger and Ziggler, but I dunno, I think their tag-team friendship might be ending..

 

I wonder if Foley's return will bring about the debut of Dean Ambrose on WWE TV? They seemed to have something going with him at Axxess with Ambrose saying weird things to Foley about 'I know what you did' or something like that. Wasn't sure if they dropped the ball on that or if they're going to keep it up...