The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Teh_Showtime]

The poster wasn't the final straw it was raw 1001. Sorry if I didn't make that especially clear. Thought that that would be clear because a poster being the reason would be just dumb.

 

There wasn't anything amazing bad with raw.

 

They had midcard development, tag divison development, and nice LONG matches. Would have liked less recaps, but honestly what can you do? raw 1000 had so much stuff it was easy to forget about things that happened (Jericho/Ziggler, Miz winning the title)

 

Don't know how much is supposed to change in one show. Kofi Kingston even got mic time.

[Corki]

I found the whole post to be so ridiculous that I didn't even bother. But then you brought it up...

 

Same old stuff huh? Let me rattle off a few uppermid/main event stars of the last couple years:

 

Dolph Ziggler (1 time WHC, and MitB holder)

 

The Miz (One of the longest WWE Title reigns of the last several years AND beat Cena at WM)

 

Kofi Kingston (Had a great fued with Orton before being brought back down)

 

R-Truth (His gimmick change propelled him into a feud with Cena, before getting the Kofi treatment)

 

Jack Swagger (Former WHC)

 

Shaemus (3 time and reigning champ)

 

Alberto Del Rio (former champion)

 

Zack Ryder (Was being pushed really hard for a while, with help from Cena. I would say he went at least to UpperMid during that time)

 

Santino Marella (1 man away from winning the Royal Rumble. Then 1 second away from winning in the EC. U.S. Title holder, 2 time former IC Title holder)

 

You know, all the guys who have been dominating for the last decade right?

 

Not to mention Daniel Bryan.

[soxfan93]

And really, Mark Henry.

[BHK1978]

Sid Vicious was on American Big Brother last night because his son was up for evection. It was odd to hear him speak in a calm and normal voice.

[Makhai]

The Wrestling Observer Radio show today brought up a great point, This is perhaps the longest the WWE has been since a major product change in a long time. Probably since Bruno was on top. It's been 12 years of the same boring match and storyline structure, the same 10 guys getting pushes in the same 5 archetypes. It's not even the guys though, it's the architypes they want. They don't want a new top babyface or a new top heel, they want "the next John Cena".

 

Since the 1980s we've gone from Howdy Doody - Hulkamania - Bret Hart/Michaels - Austin/Rock era and now the No C era. All came with major product changes... The Summer of Punk should have been that moment. But, John Cena is such a "company guy" they'll never move off him until he physically breaks down, and then they'll give him the Bob Backland treatment.

 

But even with that person bit of catharsis out of the way, It's not the people that are stale, it's the product that's stale. And until somebody comes up with the next big thing in the vein of an ECW or a direct competitor with deeper pockets outside of the WWE that forces their hands we're in for 10 more years of this.... Love it or leave it. Jim Ross on an Classics of Pro Wrestling? Roundtable really talked about what makes a star and what he looked for. He said the most important thing that a star needs is the ability to evolve. The ability to change, the vision to see when it's necessary and the forethought to start preparing for that time before it comes.

 

The original C-Nation kids are 14-15 now... But the WWE is petrified to change his character in anyway. Promotions follow similar arcs. Things get stale. You have to move on.

[eayragt]

The Wrestling Observer Radio show today brought up a great point, This is perhaps the longest the WWE has been since a major product change in a long time. Probably since Bruno was on top. It's been 12 years of the same boring match and storyline structure, the same 10 guys getting pushes in the same 5 archetypes. It's not even the guys though, it's the architypes they want. They don't want a new top babyface or a new top heel, they want "the next John Cena".

 

Since the 1980s we've gone from Howdy Doody - Hulkamania - Bret Hart/Michaels - Austin/Rock era and now the No C era. All came with major product changes... The Summer of Punk should have been that moment. But, John Cena is such a "company guy" they'll never move off him until he physically breaks down, and then they'll give him the Bob Backland treatment.

 

That's true - they'll stick with Cena until he can't perform anymore. But that's actually no different to the rest of the era defining people you've listed. They were all top stars until the moment they left, be it injured, to film movies, or to WCW. And they were the focus of attention until that moment (or at least a focus of attention during the era's when they had more than one top, top star).

 

At the end of the day Cena is easily WWE's most bankable star, who defines the current era. The risk of trying to move onto another era is huge. However, if Cena leaves or picks up a long term injury suddenly the risk is much reduced. Let the new stars define the era, or define a era and let that dictate who is likely to become new stars.

 

The only other way to move to a new era with Cena still around is for WWE to develop a bankable star as Cena, but I can't see it happening. They had the chance with Punk, but despite having the 14th longest reign as WWE Champion it still hasn't pushed him into that bracket (largely due to not being treated as the major attraction, but also due to feuding with wrestlers barely in the Main Event (such as ADR)).

 

I don't think turning Cena heel would start a new era, we would get a show focussed on a heel Cena, and when momentum begins to slip he'd be turned face again. Really, I think the only way a new era starts is for Cena to go on hiatus, or off with a long term injury. And realistically he'll only go on hiatus without an injury.

 

It's a shame, as it isn't Cena himself. We could have a new era with Cena involved, but WWE won't let it develop. I wouldn't like to wish injury on anyone, but for my enjoyment the best thing to happen would be for Cena to retire, WWE to have to do something radical, John Cena to come out of retirement and slip into the new era without defining the era. And the best way for that to happen would be for him to come back as a heel, with other Main Eventers fully established.

 

But, credit to him, Cena is a hardy soul with great powers of recovery. So this won't happen.

[milamber]

 

They should be playing highlights from this on SD.

[Astil]

It's been 12 years of the same boring match and storyline structure, the same 10 guys getting pushes in the same 5 archetypes.

 

Which 10 guys have been on top for 12 years now?

[bigtplaystew]

If you think abotu it, John Cena's been on top for a longer time than the rest of the guys because he's young and healthy. Stone Cold was old and banged up by the time he was the "top guy". Then it was Rock, who basically walked away from the whole thing a few years later.

 

If the Rock never had film aspirations John Cena might not have been the "top guy".

 

As long as John Cena's around and healthy, he'll probably always be on top. He's simply more marketable than everyone else in WWE's eyes.

 

Love him or hate him, Cena's something special. He's one of very few guys that can put all of the pieces together to be a marketable top star. And unless someone comes along with really noticeable, standout charisma like the Rock or a bad ass character like Stone Cold or just has that "it" factor like Hogan... Cena's young and healthy enough to be the guy for a long time.

[soxfan93]

If you think abotu it, John Cena's been on top for a longer time than the rest of the guys because he's young and healthy. Stone Cold was old and banged up by the time he was the "top guy". Then it was Rock, who basically walked away from the whole thing a few years later.

 

If the Rock never had film aspirations John Cena might not have been the "top guy".

 

As long as John Cena's around and healthy, he'll probably always be on top. He's simply more marketable than everyone else in WWE's eyes.

 

Love him or hate him, Cena's something special. He's one of very few guys that can put all of the pieces together to be a marketable top star. And unless someone comes along with really noticeable, standout charisma like the Rock or a bad ass character like Stone Cold or just has that "it" factor like Hogan... Cena's young and healthy enough to be the guy for a long time.

 

Like CM Punk last Summer. And therein lies the problem.

[Teh_Showtime]

You mean the guy in the midst of the longest reign in half a decade and still going strong?

 

Or what about that American Dragon guy they are misusing by having him in a 20 minute TV match and several skits later in the night?

[bigtplaystew]

Yea Punk and Bryan are on their way for sure. If we're lucky, they'll develop a long term rivalry like Orton and Cena and we'll get to see them work together many many times over the years. That would be a-ok with me :-)

 

But I don't think Punk ever will be or even wants to be the next John Cena. He wants to be the first CM Punk. In saying that, I mean that he may never be the top guy, the flag bearer of the company. But he might be just as important someday if you want to bring in a more mature audience as well someday. They tried shining Punk up a bit to make him more of a defined babyface but now they seem to be doing something different with him again.

 

CM Punk described it best when he said he feels like he's Batman and Cena is Superman. You don't write Batman stories about how unstoppable he is in any situation, because that's a superman story. And I think for lack of a better phrase, they've basically been writing Punk in a bunch of Superman stories for the past year. Hopefully now they'll trust him to do something different to appeal to those wrestling fans that Cena doesn't. And WWE really needs to flesh out the top of their card if they want to get back to a place where they have mass appeal on a pop culture level like they did in the late 90s there.

[djthefunkchris]

Like CM Punk last Summer. And therein lies the problem.

What problem? Compared to where CM Punk was before and compared to now, I'm not seeing a 'therein lies' problem... unless you don't like Punk or something.

Yea Punk and Bryan are on their way for sure. If we're lucky, they'll develop a long term rivalry like Orton and Cena and we'll get to see them work together many many times over the years. That would be a-ok with me :-)

 

But I don't think Punk ever will be or even wants to be the next John Cena. He wants to be the first CM Punk. In saying that, I mean that he may never be the top guy, the flag bearer of the company. But he might be just as important someday if you want to bring in a more mature audience as well someday. They tried shining Punk up a bit to make him more of a defined babyface but now they seem to be doing something different with him again.

 

CM Punk described it best when he said he feels like he's Batman and Cena is Superman. You don't write Batman stories about how unstoppable he is in any situation, because that's a superman story. And I think for lack of a better phrase, they've basically been writing Punk in a bunch of Superman stories for the past year. Hopefully now they'll trust him to do something different to appeal to those wrestling fans that Cena doesn't. And WWE really needs to flesh out the top of their card if they want to get back to a place where they have mass appeal on a pop culture level like they did in the late 90s there.

I kind of like that analogy. One thing I've never really believed is that there can only be "one" at the top. It can be shared, and has quite often. You can have Cena and Punk at the top. IF say Punk never reach's the success of Cena, it's not because of Cena, and 'therein lies the problem' (just making a funny).

 

They've had Hogan AND Savage. They had Rock AND Austin... heck, they've had Rock, Austin, Brock, etc... all at once before.

 

The problem isn't Cena. He's become one dimensional and predictable, and yet he is still on top... I don't see how that's his fault. IF you think for a minute they don't know how to make Cena appeal to all of us, you're fooling yourself. This is on purpose, and it allows for other's to come up with "different" things, things that Cena has actually done in the past would be different compared to him now... Someone "could" drop the pipe-bomb on us and we would eat it up (Punk). Someone could just be so good they have him on more then most (Daniels). It's happening, but it's up to them to keep our interest.

 

My thoughts currently is that Daniel Bryan is more interesting then CM Punk right now... More interesting then John Cena (looking at it objectionably). He could end up being the "Next Guy" the way it's going right now, but I honestly don't see that happening... I see him turning and becoming a crowd favorite, because I see sympathy segments already happening (Oh come on! Goat face!! Really!!!!). To me that was a great segment, by the way.

 

Cena is where they need him to be. Been around so long he's more thought of as legend, then regular roster member. He could fight a broomstick and headline a PPV right now, and no matter if you hate him or love him, it's actually going to be the match people are there to see in quantity (not quality). That's not his fault, or the WWE's fault. There is nothing I've read here since being here that has changed my mind about that.

 

You look at things objectionably, as if you haven't been watching for 10 years (and I know that sounds hard, but it's the only way I believe we can understand where they are coming from or going to). Pretend like you haven't seen the "5 moves of doom" 100000 times on 1000 shows. See what it is you have here... You have a bunch of misfits that are trying to stand out, and some are standing out credibly, while some are standing out in a goofy way (for lack of a better term).

 

Cena is todays Hulk Hogan. "Play nice, and Play fair" guy, "Standing up for what is right even if it doesn't help himself". He's going to be a favorite among the naive and optimistic fans forever. They don't see "5 moves of doom!", they see a stand up guy sticking up for what is right, no matter the cost.

 

Punk is the "edge" guy. He's the guy that's going to re-invent himself over and over for ever, just like Chris Jericho. Always going back to the roots of the matter... I'm better then YOU! He tells truths that people don't want to believe or here, even when he's playing the good guy. Yes, we can get behind him, and yes he can get everyone else behind him, but NO, he's not the next John Cena or Stone Cold... for that matter. He's Chris Jericho.

 

Daniel Bryan.... To me a better Savage then Savage.

 

Heath Slater: I'm telling you... from an old school feel... He's Ric Flair.

 

I could go on... but my point is, you have a legend in Cena right now, that will probably make history as the best of all time by the end of his carreer... and if your around and have kids or grand kids, you will be able to say "you seen it all go down". You hate him because you know this is a fact, and you already have a favorite that is "the best of all time" to you... No matter if it's Shawn Michaels, Taker, Rock, Brock, Austin, etc. He doesn't fit the mold you want someone to fit for that, and personally, I don't think anyone can ever take the place most of the time, of the "ONE" people really want to remember as such. Especially one that was actually around when the other's faded.

[soxfan93]

Clearly you guys missed what I meant to say. My apologies for not explaining it well enough.

 

CM Punk being more important than he was last Spring isn't enough to make the WWE interesting again. CM Punk being pushed as the next bad-ass rebel heel for a while would have been. Instead, within 2 months, they basically turned him into a "Glad to be back, thanks for having me!" face that, honestly, ruined any real momentum we had of getting to that next era, which is what we were talking about. Sure, he had an extremely short-lived "feud" with Triple H, but when people were discussing how Punk/HHH could be the next Austin/McMahon, the whole thing was incredibly disappointing, thus losing even more momentum for Punk. Just because he's been WWE Champion for 9 months doesn't mean we haven't taken a step backward.

 

And for the record, I love Punk. Long-time fan.

[Arrows]

Cena is todays Hulk Hogan. "Play nice, and Play fair" guy, "Standing up for what is right even if it doesn't help himself". He's going to be a favorite among the naive and optimistic fans forever. They don't see "5 moves of doom!", they see a stand up guy sticking up for what is right, no matter the cost.

 

It falls apart, right here.

 

If THAT was the role Cena is playing, like people tend to claim, I'd have no problem with the guy at all. It's not. John Cena isn't a hero. He doesn't play fair. What kind of hero, what kind of role model, gets fired from his job, and then shows up the next week to beat the crap out of the guys who were responsible for him being fired?

 

Here, in the real world, that's f'n ASSAULT. You get ARRESTED for that. People DIE when stuff like that happens in the real world.

 

But for John Cena, it's perfectly acceptable, because some stupid 10 year olds like the pretty colors of his t-shirts?

[Teh_Showtime]

It falls apart, right here.

 

If THAT was the role Cena is playing, like people tend to claim, I'd have no problem with the guy at all. It's not. John Cena isn't a hero. He doesn't play fair. What kind of hero, what kind of role model, gets fired from his job, and then shows up the next week to beat the crap out of the guys who were responsible for him being fired?

 

Here, in the real world, that's f'n ASSAULT. You get ARRESTED for that. People DIE when stuff like that happens in the real world.

 

But for John Cena, it's perfectly acceptable, because some stupid 10 year olds like the pretty colors of his t-shirts?

 

Steve Austin committed Assault every week. Let's not bring in real world examples because we have the entire attitude era that was built on things like Undertaker crucifying and hanging people

 

it's wrestling

[Arrows]

Steve Austin committed Assault every week. Let's not bring in real world examples because we have the entire attitude era that was built on things like Undertaker crucifying and hanging people

 

it's wrestling

 

Steve Austin wasn't being cited as the NEXT BIG ROLE MODEL FOR CHILDREN.

 

He was what we all WISHED we could do. Us GROWN UPS. The ones that GET THE DIFFERENCE.

[lazorbeak]

They've had Hogan AND Savage. They had Rock AND Austin... heck, they've had Rock, Austin, Brock, etc... all at once before.

 

Quick fact-checking: WWE never had a healthy Rock, Austin, and Brock on the same roster. They appeared on exactly one card together, in Austin's last match.

 

And I don't think there was ever any doubt that Hogan was #1, Savage was #2, and the only reason Rock became the #1 was Austin's health issues. Only one guy can be "the guy" at any given time.

[Teh_Showtime]

So since he isn't targeted towards children doing things that would get you incarcerated in real life is ok?

 

Sure Cena's character might be a hypocrite but nearly every wrestler contradicts themselves eventually.

[Arrows]

So since he isn't targeted towards children doing things that would get you incarcerated in real life is ok?

 

Sure Cena's character might be a hypocrite but nearly every wrestler contradicts themselves eventually.

 

I don't think it's okay to present someone as a role model to children, and then have him be the opposite. You're teaching kids the wrong thing, with Cena. It's why Hogan was generally accepted by the ENTIRE world. He actually was a GREAT role model for children.

 

Steve Austin was never presented to children as "This is acceptable". Austin was often arrested. Austin was always in trouble with his boss for his actions. It was presented in an accurate way, as far as I can tell. So again, you're just way off.

[djthefunkchris]

It falls apart, right here.

 

If THAT was the role Cena is playing, like people tend to claim, I'd have no problem with the guy at all. It's not. John Cena isn't a hero. He doesn't play fair. What kind of hero, what kind of role model, gets fired from his job, and then shows up the next week to beat the crap out of the guys who were responsible for him being fired?

 

Here, in the real world, that's f'n ASSAULT. You get ARRESTED for that. People DIE when stuff like that happens in the real world.

 

But for John Cena, it's perfectly acceptable, because some stupid 10 year olds like the pretty colors of his t-shirts?

 

He has his moments, brief moments, when I actually like him... but he always goes back to what I was referencing.

[djthefunkchris]

Quick fact-checking: WWE never had a healthy Rock, Austin, and Brock on the same roster. They appeared on exactly one card together, in Austin's last match.

 

And I don't think there was ever any doubt that Hogan was #1, Savage was #2, and the only reason Rock became the #1 was Austin's health issues. Only one guy can be "the guy" at any given time.

 

The years 2000 to 2002 never existed I take it. I know that Austin was hurt, and movies were to be made and what have you. It doesn't really matter if they were or weren't, my point is that you can have more then one guy at the top, although someone is always going to be more popular or what have you then the other. I'm strictly talking solid main event potential... HHH, HBK, Cena, Undertaker, etc. These are all guys that could Main Event if needed, and usually come through. OF course Hogan was bigger then Savage, I'm not saying they were even, only that either one could have been the center of the show without worry of low ratings and whatever else they worry about.

 

Punk and Daniels could do the same, but they haven't been on top the years it takes to get there... which is quite a bit longer then what most people "think" it takes. It's not about age... as Orton has proved. Orton is over like crazy as well, but as earlier posts suggests, he's been around and thought of as "Older" by some because of the longevity... But that's exactly what it takes to get there. They need to stay there, and if they are interesting enough to the mass audience, will become the same.

 

Sorry, I should have clarified my statements better.

[Teh_Showtime]

I take it Randy Orton or Batista didn't exist?

 

Or Jeff Hardy

 

CM Punk main evented the same number of PPVs in 2009 as John Cena. He was nowhere near Cena's level but Jeff Hardy was. On top of that the previously mentioned Michaels, HHH, and Taker were all top guys too until late 2010 when they all stopped being regular wrestlers.

 

It's not like Cena has main evented 40 PPVs in a row

[Arrows]

I take it Randy Orton or Batista didn't exist?

 

Or Jeff Hardy

 

CM Punk main evented the same number of PPVs in 2009 as John Cena. He was nowhere near Cena's level but Jeff Hardy was. On top of that the previously mentioned Michaels, HHH, and Taker were all top guys too until late 2010 when they all stopped being regular wrestlers.

 

It's not like Cena has main evented 40 PPVs in a row

 

Michaels was retired by late 2010.

 

Taker hasn't been regular since mid 2000.

 

Trips was wrestling more than both, and even he was rarely around.

 

July 2010: Triple H underwent surgery to repair a torn tendon in his upper arm (not neck surgery as reported on the internet)

September 2010: Triple H was given an office at WWE headquarters as he officially became a senior adviser (to Vince McMahon)..

November 1, 2010--RAW: Vince McMahon appeared in a "Dream Sequence" segment with daughter Stephanie and the voice of Triple H..

 

That's STILL more regular than the other 2.

[Teh_Showtime]

HHH wrestles 3 matches a year, Taker wrestles 1

 

doesnt matter if he's more active but after WM 26 they lost the following HUGE stars who would never come back full time:

 

1. Batista

2. HBK

3. HHH

4. Undertaker came back, was put in a coma, and then lost twice to Kane before disappearing

 

On top of those Jericho left around September

 

That was when they had to start relying so heavily on Cena. But then look at what happened in 2011:

 

1. Edge retired

2. Mysterio injured

3. Morrison injured then left

 

Those are 3 top level faces who were capable of main eventing PPVs who got injured and 2 of them left and one just got back from injury.

 

If anything it has been more injury/retirements lead them to lean on Cena too much.