The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[djthefunkchris]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="milamber" data-cite="milamber" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Well I know for damn sure Cena won't be forced to vacate his title unless he's out for 2+ months. Best option would be to give Ryback a gauntlet or handicap match to keep him strong, push HHH/Brock to semi-main and give Ziggler/ADR/Swagger the chance to impress as the main event. Also having Taker wrestle would help. WWE title aside, I won't be missing Cena.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Teh_Showtime" data-cite="Teh_Showtime" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>lol at thinking BROCK LESNAR would play second fiddle to the world title match. I had already assumed they would be going on last even with Cena on the card as they did at summer slam.<p> </p><p> Realistically the triple threat will probably be the best match of the night but the people in the match have just been mitigated to the point where they can't even close smackdown anymore.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> My opinion is without Cena (or Rock) around, Undertaker is top dog if he is sticking around for a minute. I see ADR and Ziggler opening if it was just them, but adding in Swagger gives them higher card value... but to get my opinion of where they should be, consider I feel there should be a strong start, a strong middle, and the headline should be your most popular guys. </p><p> </p><p> Triple H and Brock would definitely be the main event without the obvious around.... even though I feel Undertaker is more popular, the rest of the crew Undertaker is dealing with is not. </p><p> </p><p> So, for the mentioned match's, my card would look something like Swagger/ADR/Ziggler then Undertaker and company, then Triple H vs Brock.</p><p> </p><p> However, I think Cena shows up, and things go as planned... Cena already twittered he wasn't even going to miss the next Raw, so I figure his injury isn't going to be bad enough to cancel the match up with Ryback.</p><p> </p><p> With Cena on the card, I don't know if HHH and Brock closes it... I think Cena will, and people will complain.</p>

[milamber]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Teh_Showtime" data-cite="Teh_Showtime" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Realistically the triple threat will probably be the best match of the night but the people in the match have just been mitigated to the point where they can't even close smackdown anymore.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Swagger and ADR have had 2 good matches lately. We can also expect to see Ziggler vs ADR and possibly Ziggler vs Swagger before ER. It's been a good build so far. Pity so many people don't watch SD and won't give a stuff. Now would be a good time to treat the WHC as more than a PPV opening act.</p>

[Teh_Showtime]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="djthefunkchris" data-cite="djthefunkchris" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>My opinion is without Cena (or Rock) around, Undertaker is top dog if he is sticking around for a minute. I see ADR and Ziggler opening if it was just them, but adding in Swagger gives them higher card value... but to get my opinion of where they should be, consider I feel there should be a strong start, a strong middle, and the headline should be your most popular guys. <p> </p><p> Triple H and Brock would definitely be the main event without the obvious around.... even though I feel Undertaker is more popular, the rest of the crew Undertaker is dealing with is not. </p><p> </p><p> So, for the mentioned match's, my card would look something like Swagger/ADR/Ziggler then Undertaker and company, then Triple H vs Brock.</p><p> </p><p> However, I think Cena shows up, and things go as planned... Cena already twittered he wasn't even going to miss the next Raw, so I figure his injury isn't going to be bad enough to cancel the match up with Ryback.</p><p> </p><p> With Cena on the card, I don't know if HHH and Brock closes it... I think Cena will, and people will complain.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Why would anybody be mad at the WWE champion main eventing over a match that didnt really need a 2nd match and absolutely doesn't need a 3rd match?</p>

[djthefunkchris]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Teh_Showtime" data-cite="Teh_Showtime" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Why would anybody be mad at the WWE champion main eventing over a match that didnt really need a 2nd match and absolutely doesn't need a 3rd match?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I just feel like I'm going to be reading things like "He just can't stay out of it, even when he's hurt!" and the normal stuff "Figures he would ME, no matter if he has the title or not!".</p><p> </p><p> The only reason I think he headlines is because his popularity is higher then the rest of the card, and you have a two for one deal with him... He's your number one Face and your number one Heel (by just staying face). I've said before I think that Cena's their best heel, but no one agrees with me. He knows what you want from him, but he's not going to give it to you because he knows better then you, and so he's heel in my eyes.... although I don't think it's up to him.</p><p> </p><p> But yeah, good call. I wasn't even thinking about him holding the title. I just think he headlines (and probably should) no matter if he has the title or not.</p>

[Teh_Showtime]

<p>On the note about him being a heel and face at the same time I have thought about that a lot, probably too much actually, but it would just do his character a world of good if they (commentators/company perception) didn't treat everything he does as being right. To me that's his biggest problem because despite him doing numerous bad things they try to force you to believe that Cena is the measure of all that is right in the world.</p><p> </p><p>

It was actually a promo from Punk pre pipebomb that highlighted this perfectly

</p><div class="ipsEmbeddedVideo"><div><iframe width="200" height="113" src="https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/oe0q1F-1_Dc?start=226&feature=oembed" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="" title="CM Punk And John Cena Segment (Cena gets owned)"></iframe></div></div><p> </p><p>

Cena was angered that he couldn't do his finisher to Vickie Guerrero. A middle aged woman who is incapable of defending herself, but they still try to pass Cena off as the good guy in that situation and that is where a lot of my frustration comes from, even if you ignore all the times they wrecked careers in attempts to get Cena to be cheered more, not to mention resorting to having Mick Foley be his new best friend every time he has a feud with a popular wrestler.</p>

[shawn michaels]

He might not even be injured. This could just be another WWE work, like many they already did before with Cena, to make it look like Ryback has a real shot at winning an injured Cena. More underdog crap. I will only believe the injure is legit if he misses ER. If this turns out to be a serious injury, which I doubt, it would be interesting to see how WWE would deal with it. Would they finally realise they need to push more people to that level? They can't rely on that prick forever, he's not getting younger.

[milamber]

<p>From JR's blog:</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>“WWE.com reporting that WWE Champion John Cena has sustained an injury while on the European Tour. The report states that Cena has issues with his right, Achilles tendon which can be a dicey matter. Achilles injuries can be puzzling especially if they aren’t torn and don’t require surgery. In other words these types of injuries can linger if one doesn’t get the proper rest and allow the tendon to heal. The injury is legit as Cena has been suffering through this matter for several days even though he hasn’t missed any bookings. Always said the man has the work ethic and toughness of an offensive lineman which is a good thing.”</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Cena vs Ryback was never going to be a fast-paced match. I'm sure they can script the match to protect Cena if he doesn't need surgery but he's still banged up.</p>

[lazorbeak]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="shawn michaels 82" data-cite="shawn michaels 82" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>They can't rely on that prick forever, he's not getting younger.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I get that you have this uncontrollable hatred for the Cena character, but there's really no need for this stuff, is there?</p>

[djthefunkchris]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="lazorbeak" data-cite="lazorbeak" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I get that you have this uncontrollable hatred for the Cena character, but there's really no need for this stuff, is there?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> There is quite a bit of people that think like that though, and is why I consider him to be their number one heel.... Have him lose and most people with that mind set eat it up, as if he is a bad guy. Have him win, and it upsets them. Keep seeing him as if he can do no wrong, is an outstanding citizen, etc. and it all the more upsets people with this mindset of how "bad" Cena is. It's money in the bank, and if I were only thinking of the business end, I would never change it. </p><p> </p><p> Cena is 36, hitting the back end of his prime. He will hold his place as long as he sticks around. He could do this for another 10 years easily, even longer providing no huge injuries and he stays in shape. He doesn't gas, seems to be able to go far longer then some of the guys 10 years younger then him, and is not showing signs of actually aging. Bringing up his age doesn't really mean much... However, my opinion is that he will probably get more injury prone as time goes on. He's human in the real world, so it's not like he can avoid it. </p><p> </p><p> -------------------------------------------------------------------------</p><p> Now... as far as the rest of the card, it's up to them (as I have said before) to elevate themselves whenever they have that chance. So far, it's not happened outside of Punk and Bryan (Bryan to a smaller extent). To show an example of someone I think could have been elevated because of his charisma and mic work, I'll bring up MVP. Went on a losing streak before he left, and that was for like a whole year, but his character showed subtle changes that was gaining him popularity even though he was losing all the time. The more he lost, the more people started getting behind him until it did change and he started winning. He gained that elevation with a combination of multiple things, mic work, charisma, actual story telling in the ring (Which I think him and Mr. Kennedy/Anderson was very good at in WWE). I've always felt that Tommy Dreamer had it in him as well, but he never wanted to be "The Man", staying true to the character he portrayed.</p><p> </p><p> I've said it before, taking John Cena out isn't going to elevate anyone. You can have Cena not be around for weeks, month's, and a whole year, and if they don't step up it's not going to matter one iota. Someone will take his spot, sure... but they won't sell merchandise or draw like Cena, and so it's a mute point.</p><p> </p><p> You get lucky when "The Rock", or "The Undertaker", or "Stone Cold", or "Cenation", or "Hulkamania" or a "CM Punk" steps up to the plate and hits a home run. Not everyone is going to be able to do that. You can only have 1 guy in the top spot, but that doesn't mean you can't have others willing and able to hit that home run when their turn at the plate comes up. The problem WWE has had for a while, is there has only been a few that has been able to hit a home run (or at least a triple) when their turn come up, and some of them failed the drug testing a few too many times.</p><p> </p><p> Personally, I would love to see what Cena would do as a heel. I hope for it every time he shows up, and I'm let down at every opportunity they have to do it and... nothing happens. I get the frustration with his character. The thing is, I also see him on all the other shows he shows up on, and I've never heard a mixed reaction. He always seems to be the star attraction on whatever show he ends up on, and it's almost like the people are let down when his time is up on the shows... He's huge outside of wrestling, people love him. So I can understand why his character doesn't change. Doesn't mean I have to like it, but understanding it does comfort some of the frustration.</p>

[lazorbeak]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="djthefunkchris" data-cite="djthefunkchris" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>There is quite a bit of people that think like that though, and is why I consider him to be their number one heel.... Have him lose and most people with that mind set eat it up, as if he is a bad guy. Have him win, and it upsets them. Keep seeing him as if he can do no wrong, is an outstanding citizen, etc. and it all the more upsets people with this mindset of how "bad" Cena is. It's money in the bank, and if I were only thinking of the business end, I would never change it. <p> </p><p> Cena is 36, hitting the back end of his prime. He will hold his place as long as he sticks around. He could do this for another 10 years easily, even longer providing no huge injuries and he stays in shape. He doesn't gas, seems to be able to go far longer then some of the guys 10 years younger then him, and is not showing signs of actually aging. Bringing up his age doesn't really mean much... However, my opinion is that he will probably get more injury prone as time goes on. He's human in the real world, so it's not like he can avoid it. </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> My point was more that there's no reason to name-call a person who may or may not be legit injured because you have an unhealthy hatred of the character he plays on TV.</p>

[shawn michaels]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="lazorbeak" data-cite="lazorbeak" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>My point was more that there's no reason to name-call a person who may or may not be legit injured because you have an unhealthy hatred of the character he plays on TV.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> </p><p> True, I got carried away. <img alt=":D" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/biggrin.png.929299b4c121f473b0026f3d6e74d189.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /> But getting back to his age, I don't think he will be able to be the top man in 10 years. I mean, he will be 46 by then, and I don't care what people say, but a guy in his mid to late forties trying to cater too a young audience, trying to sell t-shirts and arm wrists is no longer feasible, it's just plain old creepy. We live in a world where age is everything, especially in a company that caters to young people, and when a guys gets to his 40's, his appeal to younger audiences is fading away.</p>

[Jaysin]

It's nuts to think that people care that much about age. Ric Flair won his first NWA World Title when he was 36. Sting didn't hit his real prime until mid 30s. Hell, DDP was 40 when he blew up.

 

People put way too much thought into how old people are.

[Bull]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Jaysin" data-cite="Jaysin" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>It's nuts to think that people care that much about age. Ric Flair won his first NWA World Title when he was <strong>36</strong>. Sting didn't hit his real prime until mid 30s. Hell, DDP was 40 when he blew up. <p> </p><p> People put way too much thought into how old people are.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I honestly think a lot of people try to connect wrestling with other contact sports when it comes to age. If you think about it, 36 is up there for sports like football, MMA, and others. Not to mention if you play TEW most people in the game don't wrestle clear into there 50s and longer like they do in real life.</p>

[Teh_Showtime]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Jaysin" data-cite="Jaysin" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>It's nuts to think that people care that much about age. Ric Flair won his first NWA World Title when he was <strong>36</strong>. Sting didn't hit his real prime until mid 30s. Hell, DDP was 40 when he blew up. <p> </p><p> People put way too much thought into how old people are.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> The schedule that WWE works these days is insane. There is a reason guys like Edge, Christian, Mysterio, etc are in their late 30s and extremely banged up and Edge to the point he had to retire. Even looking at a guy like HHH who isn't really that old at all but even he has been relegated to wrestling part time to extend his career.</p>

[Hashasheen]

It's the same schedule guys like Flair, DiBiase, etc... did in their prime Showtime. Sometimes they'd wrestle 8 times a week even, though they certainly didn't have to do charity work or a lot of promotional stuff. I think you can put it more on the style of wrestling we have today in comparison to thirty years ago, where a resthold was an actual submission hold in the eyes of the fans, and high-flying wasn't a thing outside of a few wrestlers. The stuff we get today is a lot faster, a lot more high-impact.

[Jaysin]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Teh_Showtime" data-cite="Teh_Showtime" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The schedule that WWE works these days is insane. There is a reason guys like Edge, Christian, Mysterio, etc are in their late 30s and extremely banged up and Edge to the point he had to retire. Even looking at a guy like HHH who isn't really that old at all but even he has been relegated to wrestling part time to extend his career.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Hashasheen" data-cite="Hashasheen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>It's the same schedule guys like Flair, DiBiase, etc... did in their prime Showtime. Sometimes they'd wrestle 8 times a week even, though they certainly didn't have to do charity work or a lot of promotional stuff. I think you can put it more on the style of wrestling we have today in comparison to thirty years ago, where a resthold was an actual submission hold in the eyes of the fans, and high-flying wasn't a thing outside of a few wrestlers. The stuff we get today is a lot faster, a lot more high-impact.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I was going to point out what Hash did, but he already did.</p><p> </p><p> I think Cena is perfectly able to maintain this schedule though. The dude is a freak and is in great physical shape. </p><p> </p><p> I think of all the things to bring up about him, his age shouldn't be one of them.</p>

[Teh_Showtime]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Hashasheen" data-cite="Hashasheen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>It's the same schedule guys like Flair, DiBiase, etc... did in their prime Showtime. Sometimes they'd wrestle 8 times a week even, though they certainly didn't have to do charity work or a lot of promotional stuff. I think you can put it more on the style of wrestling we have today in comparison to thirty years ago, where a resthold was an actual submission hold in the eyes of the fans, and high-flying wasn't a thing outside of a few wrestlers. The stuff we get today is a lot faster, a lot more high-impact.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I don't exactly mean the number of times they wrestle I mean the travel as well. Now they're going all over the world as opposed to being confined to a few different cities or states.</p><p> </p><p> It was big at one time for a company to run shows on the other side of the US, but now they're running multiple shows on the other side of the world.</p>

[Hashasheen]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Teh_Showtime" data-cite="Teh_Showtime" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I don't exactly mean the number of times they wrestle I mean the travel as well. Now they're going all over the world as opposed to being confined to a few different cities or states.<p> </p><p> It was big at one time for a company to run shows on the other side of the US, but now they're running multiple shows on the other side of the world.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> A lot of the wrestlers worked across the world in Japan or Mexico or did tours in Europe. DiBiase was making a 1000 a day back in the 80s working for Giant Baba in AJPW.</p>

[Teh_Showtime]

Yes individual wrestlers but I was talking about promotions in general.

[shawn michaels]

Guys, those were other times, nowadays age is truly important. People expect their idols to be more and more young everytime. How many main eventers in their mid to late forties are their in the WWE these days? None. And only 2 part timers, The Undertaker and HHH.

[Guest codey]

I think whoever pointed out the evolution of moves makes a good point. The amount of bumps wrestlers take in a modern 5 minute match are a lot more and harder than wrestlers used to. Hulk Hogan destroyed his body with a standing leg drop, imagine what Cena does with his diving one.

[lazorbeak]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Jaysin" data-cite="Jaysin" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>It's nuts to think that people care that much about age. Ric Flair won his first NWA World Title when he was <strong>36</strong>. Sting didn't hit his real prime until mid 30s. Hell, DDP was 40 when he blew up. <p> </p><p> People put way too much thought into how old people are.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Flair came up in a different time, but Sting was 31 when he won his first world title (and had been a main eventer for awhile), and DDP was a disastrous failure as world champ (although his age wasn't solely to blame). History tends to bear out that 30-35 is really the sweet spot when it comes to pro wrestlers hitting their peak in terms of skill, popularity, and general relevance. Obviously you can stretch that either way, and guys like Brock or The Rock got there far earlier than most because of their look, but it's tougher to sell a casual fan that a guy in his 40's is the toughest fighter in the promotion, because that's just not reflected much in the real world.</p><p> </p><p> And as mentioned, Edge and Rey are more the victims of the style that was popular as they were coming up than anything else. Looking back, it seems crazy that Edge did all the cruiserweight stuff he did early in his career. It probably got him a job or two, but the bigger you are, the more wear on your joints.</p>

[Teh_Showtime]

Yeah I was actually watching Edge vs Owen Hart recently, I think it was Breakdown 1998 and I had just forgotten how athletic he really was in his younger years.

[milamber]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Jaysin" data-cite="Jaysin" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I was going to point out what Hash did, but he already did.<p> </p><p> I think Cena is perfectly able to maintain this schedule though. The dude is a freak and is in great physical shape. </p><p> </p><p> I think of all the things to bring up about him, his age shouldn't be one of them.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yes Cena is in great shape. But that is partly because Vince protects him in matches. Same old routine in most of his matches. Opponent gets in some offense to try to ground Cena which he absorbs, then he hits his few moves in sequence and match over. Safety first to protect the company's top star. Exceptions are some of his matches with Punk where you can tell Punk is getting more out of him because he respects wrestling too much to give the fans an average match, and the semi-hardcore match against Lesnar last year. Same for other top stars, I just happen to dislike Cena's move-set more than most in WWE. That is why, IMO, the bigger problem is his limited move-set and to a lesser extent his character but that won't change while Cena's top dog (even if he begged Vince to let him do different stuff).</p>

[Makhai]

Cena's problem is 3 fold. 1) He's not that big of a star 2) He's milk toast. 3) He represents everything a generation of wrestling fans despised.

 

Those are his problems. He's not a guy who can star in movies. If he walks out the door without his ridiculous merc nobody but his mom and wrestling fans know who he is. He's bland in the ring, on the mic, walking to the ring, standing around backstage... it's not that he's bad. He's just.... offensively mediocre. In the 90s Cena doesn't make it of the under card. That's just the truth. He's the Hulk Hogan(in role only) who took the mantle after the attitude era ended. So we thematically went from "**** authority, Suck it" to "Eat your vitamins, and drink your milk." I almost feel bad, because even if he was a real draw(he's not) he'd always be judged against the impossible. But he's not, so w/e.

 

Yawn. That's how I've always felt about Cena, for 10 years. Yawn. He's the North American Big Daddy. Big Daddy killed the wrestling industry in the UK. Cena is working really hard to squash it in the US. Almost there. 5 more years or so. Think he'll make it. All of his fans right now have only known him on top. They don't remember anybody else. So it's self fulfilling overness. You could push Khali for 10 years and get over with 5 year olds. Not impressive to me.