The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[lazorbeak]

Is the youth movement really hurting the WWE?

 

Bischoff forgot this part of the ratings report:

 

"On the bright side, the 12-17 male rating was the second highest in the last six weeks.

 

Raw's second hour drew a 4.09 rating in the male 12-17 demographic, the highest rating on cable last night."

 

In the short term, yes, putting over new talent hurts your ratings. It was true in 1997-98 WWF, it's still true in 2010. It's also a necessity to evolve your product, create new stars, etc. Sheamus right now isn't going to draw big money because there's still a segment of the casual wrestling fan-base that doesn't know who he is because he wasn't working when those casual fans regularly watched the show. The more casual your fan-base is, the more it needs help figuring out who it's cheering for and what's going on in the promotion. For me the height of this was WCW in 1999 and 2000, when WCW fans were essentially cheering anyone they recognized: "the Outsiders? Hey I know those guys! Tank who?"

 

But, like you said, new faces can also bring in new fans, and more exciting for me as a wrestling fan, we haven't already seen absolutely everything they're capable of as performers. I don't care about Triple H coming back, because I've seen absolutely everything he can do as a babyface and as a heel, whereas I'm curious how John Morrison would do as a main event heel or how effective Sheamus would be as a main event babyface.

 

My favorite is how Bischoff makes some credible (if obvious) points, but then, apparently feeling he was on a roll, begins talking directly out of his posterior when he says this:

 

In my opinion Vince Russo, Dixie Carter and the team at TNA have done a great job of utilizing veteran stars to help elevate some of the young emerging talent in TNA and at the same time gaining awareness and credibility within the media industry.

 

Is that why ratings have dropped, Monday Night Impact was a disastrous failure, and an "emerging" talent like AJ Styles dropped the title and down the card while a 40 year old with nostalgia appeal from his time at bigger, better companies years ago is TNA's champ?

 

Because... those are facts too.

[CQI13]

And what exactly is he supposed to say Lazor? We suck too?

[lazorbeak]

And what exactly is he supposed to say Lazor? We suck too?

 

Hey I get pimping your own product, but if you're going to take cheap shots at your neighbor, maybe you should make sure there aren't any beams in your eye, to mix my metaphors. He could have quit while he was ahead, or he could have just hyped up his own work without feeling the need to denigrate his competition (although that's never been his style). Instead he just looks like an idiot.

[CQI13]

To be fair, the part about Dixie/Russo/TNA was prefaced by saying in his opinion (not fact).

 

And ratings have dropped because people just don't care enough like they used to, for whatever reason. More choices. Poorer product. Same stars. New "stars."

[MasterJ]

You know Nexus are heels, right? I think it's a miracle they've sold any shirts. Heels don't typically move a lot of merchandise.

 

Heels sell alot of merchandise if they connect with the crowd examples are Punk who is a young new ME and a heel who sell some of the most merchandise on Smackdown. In WCW although bigger names NWO was the merchandise income pretty much, Orton has always sold merchandise Heel or Tweener (Is what I consider him now) and more heels have sold their fair share of merchandise

[lazorbeak]

Heels sell alot of merchandise if they connect with the crowd examples are Punk who is a young new ME and a heel who sell some of the most merchandise on Smackdown. In WCW although bigger names NWO was the merchandise income pretty much, Orton has always sold merchandise Heel or Tweener (Is what I consider him now) and more heels have sold their fair share of merchandise

 

Orton is a babyface and has been for months.

 

 

That says, yes, Nexus has a shirt for sale and yes it's a big seller. Miz is also on the top seller list as a heel.

 

The rest of WWE's top selling stuff is all Cena and Orton, which isn't surprising, since they're the two top babyfaces in the company.

[PeterHilton]

...and I haven't seen too many NEXUS shirts I see more new Hogan, HHH, DX, Cena shirts floating around a youth movements good depending on how you book it

 

You're wrong. Flat out wrong, actually.

 

http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/columns/148846

 

Hamilton Ave News Journal covers the business side of things. This is from the most recent column

 

1. Nexus Logo T-Shirt ($25, on sale $19.95)

2. Nexus Armband ($8.00)

3. John Cena

Never Give Up White T-Shirt ($25, on sale $19.95)

4. John Cena Never Give Up Lunch Cooler ($12.00)

5. Raw The Beginning The Best of Seasons 1 & 2 ($39.95, on sale $19.99)

6. John Cena Illustrated YOUTH T-Shirt ($9.99, on sale $8.95)

7. Randy Orton Lobotomy Basics YOUTH T-Shirt ($9.99, on sale $8.95)

8. The Hurricane Basics Series #5 Action Figure ($9.99)

9. WWE Red/Blue Reusable Bag ($2.99)

10. Randy Orton Lobotomy T-Shirt ($25, on sale $19.95)

 

The t-shirt sales continues, but so does the domination of the Nexus. The Nexus had both of their items jump up the list this week to number one and two, pushing down regulars John Cena, Randy Orton, and the Miz. If anything was an indicator whether the Nexus would be sticking around or not, this sales chart should show there is quite a while in front of them yet.

 

If you back a few weeks those N shirts have been #3, #1, #3, #1, #1, #5 etc since the shirt came out.

 

So..ratings aside..fans are buying into the angle.

[Self]

Heels sell alot of merchandise if they connect with the crowd examples are Punk who is a young new ME and a heel who sell some of the most merchandise on Smackdown. In WCW although bigger names NWO was the merchandise income pretty much, Orton has always sold merchandise Heel or Babyface and more heels have sold their fair share of merchandise

 

I can't remember ever seeing a Randy Orton shirt. I don't exactly look closely for that kind of thing, but... I can't even picture one.

 

It takes time to connect with the crowd. Punk is a relatively young new heel, but he's been on TV since 2006. That's 4 years. The Nexus guys have been around since February. That's... um... a lot shorter than 4 years. It takes time (or a really cool design) to start shifting big merchandise. It doesn't happen instantly. That's the 'problem' with pushing new guys. At first, your numbers suffer, but eventually it's worth it. You might get more out of 15 years of Wade Barrett than 3 years of Chris Jericho.

 

EDIT: Well I'll be a son of a gun. GO NEXUS! Sell those shirts, dudes. Hope the royalties are good even after dividing by 7 of you.

[SaySo]

Pretty impressive how 8 of the participants of WWE SummerSlam main event went from FCW at the start of the year to main eventing one of the big four pay per views. WWE has in the past took the risk to push young stars. Y'all remember the time they finally gave Bret Hart the go with the World title. From there, they started to push the likes of Diesel, Razor Ramon, and the HeartBreak Kid from 1994 to 1996. Two of those three names became part of WCW biggest business period. From 1996 to 1999, we saw the push of Stone Cold, The Rock, Foley, Triple H take the WWE from on the brink of collapse to the biggest boom period they ever seen before. In 2000, they pushed Kurt Angle. In 2002, we saw the introduction of Brock Lesnar, John Cena, Randy Orton, Batista, even Rey Mysterio with his mask back on. Brock got the main event push the moment he stepped in. The others followed in the footsteps several years later. This latest batch may or may not materialize, who knows, maybe it's worth the risk of seeing New Blood (no pun intended WCW). They already made $30 million in profits at the end of June 2010... They may not meet expectations in Wall Street, but let's hope new faces meet their potential.

[lazorbeak]

I can't remember ever seeing a Randy Orton shirt. I don't exactly look closely for that kind of thing, but... I can't even picture one.

 

You're kidding, right? There's the snake shirt, plus they've been selling the gas mask shirts for months, and before that, there were legacy shirts, and before that, there were RKO shirts, and before that, there were "legend killer" shirts.

 

I mean his default attire outside the ring has been t-shirt and no pants since forever.

[lazorbeak]

Pretty impressive how 8 of the participants of WWE SummerSlam main event went from FCW at the start of the year to main eventing one of the big four pay per views. WWE has in the past took the risk to push young stars. Y'all remember the time they finally gave Bret Hart the go with the World title. From there, they started to push the likes of Diesel, Razor Ramon, and the HeartBreak Kid from 1994 to 1996. Two of those three names became part of WCW biggest business period. From 1996 to 1999, we saw the push of Stone Cold, The Rock, Foley, Triple H take the WWE from on the brink of collapse to the biggest boom period they ever seen before. In 2000, they pushed Kurt Angle. In 2002, we saw the introduction of Brock Lesnar, John Cena, Randy Orton, Batista, even Rey Mysterio with his mask back on. Brock got the main event push the moment he stepped in. The others followed in the footsteps several years later. This latest batch may or may not materialize, who knows, maybe it's worth the risk of seeing New Blood (no pun intended WCW). They already made $30 million in profits at the end of June 2010... They may not meet expectations in Wall Street, but let's hope new faces meet their potential.

 

I'm sure Bischoff was laughing at WWF in 1997, since they were winning the ratings every week and had what had to seem like the greatest roster in history while WWF was pushing unproven new stars and were too cheap to pay for guys that would draw better in the ratings. Silly WWF, when will you learn?

[Self]

You're kidding, right? There's the snake shirt, plus they've been selling the gas mask shirts for months, and before that, there were legacy shirts, and before that, there were RKO shirts, and before that, there were "legend killer" shirts.

 

I mean his default attire outside the ring has been t-shirt and no pants since forever.

 

I don't know what to tell you. I'm drawing a blank. Maybe I'll check out WWE.com later on and see if anything looks familiar.

[PeterHilton]

They're the shirts that look like Affliction knock-offs if that helps

 

The gas mask designs have been actually pretty ok imo

[SaySo]

Interesting numbers i found.

 

WWE Profits up to June 30, 2009 --> $25 million.

WWE Profits up to June 30, 2010 --> $30 million.

 

However, the revenue up to June 30, 2010, are down $2 million. Not a bad start of a year. They can afford to have a youth movement.

[PeterHilton]

Their profits are strong because they've been cutting costs for years. The problems is that - eventually - you run out of cuts and those profits are progressively decreasing.

 

Now, they're not in trouble or anything...but it's a sign that business is down

 

But yes, I agree, the youth movement in general will pay dividends if done correctly. I'm just not sure if they're getting the 'prospects' that will become the next big stars.

[CQI13]

I'm sure Bischoff was laughing at WWF in 1997, since they were winning the ratings every week and had what had to seem like the greatest roster in history while WWF was pushing unproven new stars and were too cheap to pay for guys that would draw better in the ratings. Silly WWF, when will you learn?

 

You shouldn't speak relative to the result though. If you are waiting to cross the street, but then see the oncoming car turns a block before it gets to you, was it a bad idea to wait? You wouldn't have gotten hit regardless.

[PeterHilton]

You shouldn't speak relative to the result though. If you are waiting to cross the street, but then see the oncoming car turns a block before it gets to you, was it a bad idea to wait? You wouldn't have gotten hit regardless.

 

But it's not like this is an isolated incident.

 

The history of wrestling is littered with companies that failed because they never bothered to make any new stars...AWA, World Class, the Pacific Northwest..

 

WCW failed to make many new stars and it killed them in the long run. The same thing would happen to WWE and they have the luxury financially to do a youth movement when TNA really can't afford to.

[lazorbeak]

You shouldn't speak relative to the result though. If you are waiting to cross the street, but then see the oncoming car turns a block before it gets to you, was it a bad idea to wait? You wouldn't have gotten hit regardless.

 

Yeah that analogy makes absolutely zero sense. First, we're talking about a hypothetical situation. Second, we DO know the result. Bischoff thought hoarding talent and paying guys not to work would drive WWE out of business. It didn't. Vince was smart to take a chance on an unproven group of new guys, because the alternative was paying big money for proven commodities that had never been that profitable for him or were on the downswing. As good as Bret Hart was in the ring, he was never all that great on the mic and never drew big money, so he absolutely did the right thing by letting Bischoff steal the guy for far, far more than he was worth. As clear as it was in 1996 that Hogan still had a lot of drawing power, how many more years were WWF fans going to put up with him main eventing? It was time to push new guys, and while it hurt WWF in the short term, long-term it was a good investment.

 

So your analogy doesn't make any sense, because WCW's short-sightedness is one of the direct causes of what caused them to hemorrhage money for three years to the point that they were sold for pennies on the dollar. They weren't doing the right thing and then just happened to have a negative result: they were doing the wrong thing and it caused a negative result.

[CQI13]

And surely because it worked 13 years ago, it will work today. Point taken.

[PeterHilton]

And surely because it worked 13 years ago, it will work today. Point taken.

 

But it's not like this is an isolated incident.

 

The history of wrestling is littered with companies that failed because they never bothered to make any new stars...AWA, World Class, the Pacific Northwest..

 

WCW failed to make many new stars and it killed them in the long run. The same thing would happen to WWE and they have the luxury financially to do a youth movement when TNA really can't afford to.

 

just to reiterate

[eayragt]

The Bischoff quote is so biased. He blames the dip in "core" ratings on Youth being pushed, not on the absence of veterans? The youth is being pushed because of the absence of veteran wrestlers. They go hand in hand. Sheesh.

[Linsolv]

I'm lazy, so I didn't watch RAW on monday.

 

The opening promo by Cena was... not what I usually expect from him. It was silly and pandering, certainly, but more hurtful than I'd expect from Super Cena.

[ampulator]

I'm sure Bischoff was laughing at WWF in 1997, since they were winning the ratings every week and had what had to seem like the greatest roster in history while WWF was pushing unproven new stars and were too cheap to pay for guys that would draw better in the ratings. Silly WWF, when will you learn?

I agree, but I want to elaborate. It's less having to do with WWE wanting to push young and/or unproven stars, but more like they had to do it. They had no choice. It was either midcard retreads or do something new.

 

That lead to the Attitude Era. And the rest, as we say, is history.

[Teh_Showtime]

Why do I get the feeling that people think WWE wants the entire nexus to become Bret Harts or Steve Austins?

 

They still have Morrison, Punk, Miz, Dolph, etc who have shown that they can get over and go in the ring too.

 

In the end, the Nexus might get 3 world title reigns max (at least 2 from Barrett if this happens) but they will just be the next generation of midcarders with a select few (Wade, maybe Slater) doing anything major

[ZMAN]

I'll take the WWE youth movement over TNA's old guys (with the exception of Angle). That's part of what lured me into WWF back in the day, cause WCW had all the old guys from WWF, while WWF had the new, fresh talent. The Outsiders and Lex showing up at Nitro was cool and all... but I still preferred watching this new thing with DX, NOD, Venis, Rock, Austin, etc.

 

I look at TNA and they actually seem worse at creating their own stars than WCW. WCW had a batch of people that were THEIR GUYS, and they got pushed well. TNA has... Styles... and the rest of the main event scene are old, WWE/WCW/ECW people. I don't see how pushing these old people helps them any. They can make any wrestler as big of a name as they want to if they just devoted some time and creativity. How the **** is Jeff Hardy, Anderson, ECW and RVD their biggest names when they have been working there less than a year? They should have gotten stomped on their way in. It should be MCMG, BMI, Joe, Styles, and Abyss leading the way by now. I see no reason why they couldn't besides TNA trying to find the easy way out by hiring whoever WWE fires.

 

I don't know why Eric wants to go off what WWE does or what they go through. They're supposed to be two totally different products, but it seems Eric wants to be just like WWE. Shouldn't WWE be willing to lose their adult audience anyways if they are trying to reach out to kids?