The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Jaysin]

Man, watching the early days of Bagwell is insane. Its really too bad that bad booking and him being a prick ruined his career. He had a good look and was decent in the ring.

 

Also, Road Warriors vs Luger and Sting is about to happen on my television

[ampulator]

He wasn't bad, but Bagwell was very lazy in the ring at times. Not so lazy as to get people injured, but just lazy to put on a good match, especially in the last days of WCW.

[Jaysin]

He wasn't bad, but Bagwell was very lazy in the ring at times. Not so lazy as to get people injured, but just lazy to put on a good match, especially in the last days of WCW.

 

I haven't seen the laziness yet, but at where I'm at he's still teaming with Riggs as the American Males. He just had a good outing with Flair. Then again, it was against Flair

[Stennick]

I know Flair held Bagwell in high regard. When he runs down the legends of WCW/NWA in his last Nitro promo. Which by the way might be one of the single greatest promos I've ever seen. He mentioned Steamboat, Steiners, Road Warriors, Sting, Luger....and Bagwell.

 

If he was in the WWF during the "attitude era". I believe he would have been a big deal. He had a GREAT look, he could talk, he could work with anyone. The only thing that ever set him back was that he was stuck in WCW mid card hell forever. He never had a memorable program that went anywhere.

 

By the time he had a chance to shine he just didn't care anymore.

[ampulator]

I haven't seen the laziness yet, but at where I'm at he's still teaming with Riggs as the American Males. He just had a good outing with Flair. Then again, it was against Flair

This was because WCW's environment encouraged his vice, which was mainly ego. It's okay to demand crazy amounts of money and do little, but to demand to move up the card do something meaningful-that was out of the question.

 

People blame WCW environment for a lot of bad behavior from wrestlers, which is fair, but there a lot of good people that came out of WCW that were well-behaved when they were in WCW and outside of it. In Badwelll's case, he learned to demand like a jerk for a lot of privileges, but to never demand to be pushed higher.

[Stennick]

You know I don't remember too many stories of Bagwell being hard to deal with. He wouldn't lose to Berylyn but to be fair Bagwell was one of their more bankable stars at the time and Berylyn was just Alex Wright who had mostly been a comedy act up until that point.

 

Its not like the guy went around making outrageous demands. Sure he never became that great of a worker but why should he? Hogan, Savage, Nash, Hall, Piper, Goldberg, The Giant. Its not like any of those guys were any good in the ring at that point in their careers (or in some cases ever).

 

He had a good look, he could talk, he was easily able to play babyface or heel. He had an awesome finisher with a pretty cool name.

 

He wasn't Chris Jericho or Eddie Guerrero but he could have been a big deal in a world where he got any sort of push at all. Heck I'd say that at one time they gave Chris Jericho more character and mic work than they gave Buff.

 

Usually it was "hey lets team him up with Scott Norton, or hey lets team him up with Scott Steiner, or hey him and Luger are the two must cut guys on the roster lets feud them".

[Fantabulous]

ROH had a different mindset, booker, and ownership then. Plus it was one of the worst reigns in ROH history (though not as bad as Xavier’s). It just seems to me that his name value isn’t enough to make signing him a logical move. I mean sure he is a good wrestler, but why bother with a 40 year old good wrestler when you have a dozen in their 20s and 30s already with the company. It would be a different story though if ROH were making a push for Mexico.

 

And the small fact that, like with Lynn, there was a strong level of respect for Noble because of how good he was. But hey: Chavo for ROH Champ!!

 

You know I don't remember too many stories of Bagwell being hard to deal with. He wouldn't lose to Berylyn but to be fair Bagwell was one of their more bankable stars at the time and Berylyn was just Alex Wright who had mostly been a comedy act up until that point.

You must not have been around much in the last few years of WCW because the guy was notorious for having a bad attitude and not wanting to lose; did you not see the debacle with Lex Luger at Greed? Or hear about the time in the WWF right before the Invasion when Shane Helms gave him a black eye for acting like a prick? Or maybe wonder why he didn't last long in the WWF in the first place and was gone in record time, but not before an in-ring beatdown from, amongst others, the Acolytes was delivered rather stiffly because he was universally hated?

 

Bagwell was a bankable star? Yikes.

[Hive]

You know I don't remember too many stories of Bagwell being hard to deal with.

 

Really? Everytime I've read about Bagwell, it has pretty much been negative stories about his lack of professionalism and the size of his ego.

 

I think he could have been a world champion with a better approach to the business.

[cappyboy]

Man, watching the early days of Bagwell is insane. Its really too bad that bad booking and him being a prick ruined his career. He had a good look and was decent in the ring.

 

Also, Road Warriors vs Luger and Sting is about to happen on my television

 

You like early Bagwell? Get his work in Global as The Handsome Stranger. The gimmick was kind of cartoony. Sort of a masked lothario type. Picture like Tuxedo Mask from Sailor Moon. But he did well with it. Once I made the connection between The Handsome Stranger and Marcus Alexander Bagwell I was a big fan until the stories about his attitude started coming to light.

 

And I agree with those who say that once he'd developed and gotten on the stage we remember him for that he could have world champ if he hadn't sabotaged himself with the big head. The guy can be really under-rated sometimes because of the attitude problems. But que sara sara. He brought that problem on himself.

[angeldelayette]

You like early Bagwell? Get his work in Global as The Handsome Stranger. The gimmick was kind of cartoony. Sort of a masked lothario type. Picture like Tuxedo Mask from Sailor Moon. But he did well with it. Once I made the connection between The Handsome Stranger and Marcus Alexander Bagwell I was a big fan until the stories about his attitude started coming to light.

 

And I agree with those who say that once he'd developed and gotten on the stage we remember him for that he could have world champ if he hadn't sabotaged himself with the big head. The guy can be really under-rated sometimes because of the attitude problems. But que sara sara. He brought that problem on himself.

 

I met Marcus in person at an MACW show here in town and he was nice enough to me personally. But I told him that I remembered him as the Handsome Stranger and he seemed genuinely surprised that anyone remembered that gimmick.

[TLLK]

Just watched The Rise and Fall of WCW on Netflix. Made me wonder: Where is Gregory Helms nowadays?

[Fantabulous]

Just watched The Rise and Fall of WCW on Netflix. Made me wonder: Where is Gregory Helms nowadays?

 

Early last month, Helms seemed to think that drinking a lot before getting on his motorbike and taking his girlfriend for a ride was a good idea. It wasn't, and Helms suffered "a broken leg, ankle, jaw, and nose during the accident, as well as sustaining other fractures and receiving over 200 stitches, while his girlfriend sustained a broken vertebrate".

[Stennick]

And the small fact that, like with Lynn, there was a strong level of respect for Noble because of how good he was. But hey: Chavo for ROH Champ!!

 

So you're saying that Noble is a better worker than Chavo? You're saying because Noble was a good in ring worker or respected as such but they wouldn't have the same respect for a guy like Chavo? When Noble came to ROH we had no idea truly what he was capable of. We had seen flashes in WCW and in the WWE. I'm not saying that Chavo should be champion or should be anything more than a few appearances here and there. Although I am saying that Chavo was raised in the same family as the rest of the Guerrero's and he's forgotten more about wrestling than anyone in that company knows. To not bring him in for a seminar or a few matches just to pick the guys brain seems a bit crazy.

 

You must not have been around much in the last few years of WCW because the guy was notorious for having a bad attitude and not wanting to lose; did you not see the debacle with Lex Luger at Greed? Or hear about the time in the WWF right before the Invasion when Shane Helms gave him a black eye for acting like a prick? Or maybe wonder why he didn't last long in the WWF in the first place and was gone in record time, but not before an in-ring beatdown from, amongst others, the Acolytes was delivered rather stiffly because he was universally hated?

 

Bagwell was a bankable star? Yikes.

 

By the time WCW was on its last legs (the last two years) wasn't the time frame I'm talking about. I'm talking about 96,97,98 when this guy had the right look, a great gimmick and could have been a pretty big deal. I see no evidence that this guy couldn't have been a big star. He didn't get a run as a singles champion in the entire history of that company. Given that Prince Iakea and others got runs with the meaningless TV Title thats a bit shocking.

 

Again the problem was WCW had a certain way of viewing things. "You're a main eventer, you're a mid carder, you're a cruiserweight" and rarely if ever did you break out of that mold. If that card structure would have been looser and he would have had a focused push the guy could have been a star.

[Fantabulous]

So you're saying that Noble is a better worker than Chavo? You're saying because Noble was a good in ring worker or respected as such but they wouldn't have the same respect for a guy like Chavo? When Noble came to ROH we had no idea truly what he was capable of. We had seen flashes in WCW and in the WWE. I'm not saying that Chavo should be champion or should be anything more than a few appearances here and there. Although I am saying that Chavo was raised in the same family as the rest of the Guerrero's and he's forgotten more about wrestling than anyone in that company knows. To not bring him in for a seminar or a few matches just to pick the guys brain seems a bit crazy.

 

When Noble when to ROH, I would definitely call him a better worker than Chavo is now. Respecting Chavo? Right now, I'd say the respect for him wouldn't be a whole lot for reasons I've already mentioned. Not to mention to the credibility issue for working as a jobber to a midget for three or four months solid. It's one thing to be working a lame storyline against decent/good talent or being relegated to having decent matches on the 'B' shows; I ROH fans can look past that. But being the most absurd jobber of the year, to a midget, in a feud that people absolutely hated? I'd say that's a little too much for them to accept Chavo in any kind of serious or long-term role. Bring him in for a seminar? Sure, and I don't believe I said anything to suggest I'd be against just that. As for bringing him in for a few matches, I don't think it would be worth it financially; he's unlikely to draw enough to fans for it to make economic sense, having him beat some established names would probably be shat on by the fans even if he puts someone over at the end, and bringing him just to beat undercard guys would be pointless.

 

 

By the time WCW was on its last legs (the last two years) wasn't the time frame I'm talking about. I'm talking about 96,97,98 when this guy had the right look, a great gimmick and could have been a pretty big deal. I see no evidence that this guy couldn't have been a big star. He didn't get a run as a singles champion in the entire history of that company. Given that Prince Iakea and others got runs with the meaningless TV Title thats a bit shocking.

 

You might want to make it clear what time frame you are talking about, next time. In any event, I still think you're vastly overrating Bagwell in every department, but at least you're not claiming he had more charisma than The Rock.

[lazorbeak]

Not sure why nobody else hasn't brought this up, but Bagwell was never the same worker after that injury to his neck and spine. He had to tone down his style and got lazier in the ring. He also seemed to have a big ego. But while I don't think he ever could've been a world champ, he certainly could've been a solid US Title type guy.

[Fantabulous]

Not sure why nobody else hasn't brought this up, but Bagwell was never the same worker after that injury to his neck and spine. He had to tone down his style and got lazier in the ring. He also seemed to have a big ego. But while I don't think he ever could've been a world champ, he certainly could've been a solid US Title type guy.

 

You know, he could have been a super over sympathetic babyface coming back from the neck injury. Weeks of vignettes of Bagwell rehabbing the injury, vowing to come back and climb to the top, etc. Naturally, WCW turned him heel the moment he returned.

[Hive]

By the time WCW was on its last legs (the last two years) wasn't the time frame I'm talking about. I'm talking about 96,97,98 when this guy had the right look, a great gimmick and could have been a pretty big deal. I see no evidence that this guy couldn't have been a big star. He didn't get a run as a singles champion in the entire history of that company. Given that Prince Iakea and others got runs with the meaningless TV Title thats a bit shocking.

 

Again the problem was WCW had a certain way of viewing things. "You're a main eventer, you're a mid carder, you're a cruiserweight" and rarely if ever did you break out of that mold. If that card structure would have been looser and he would have had a focused push the guy could have been a star.

 

But I'd argue that they did try to push him. Problem was that as soon as they began aiming him for greener pastures, he quickly got way too full of himself and started acting up.

 

And WWE even put him the the world title picture, but not even that could apparantly motivate him to get his act straight.

 

Bagwell is not a victim of anything but his own ego.

[Rone Rivendale]

while his girlfriend sustained a broken vertebrate".

 

Kinda surprised no one has fired off a 'vertebreaker' joke.

[ampulator]

The thing is, there are many "backstage problems" in WCW, but Bagwell's was not like Hogan's, and Hogan's was not like Bagwell's.

 

Although Bagwell never backstabbed his way to the top, he did his best to make sure no one below him would go over him. And that's not exactly entirely his fault, considering WCW's backstage chaos encouraged such behavior. He also was the kind to demand for a lot of privileges. While he might try to mess with someone else's push or try to book himself to the best, he made sure he was never sold short, EVER, tried to have a lot of privileges, and coast it when it came near the end of WCW.

[TLLK]

Early last month, Helms seemed to think that drinking a lot before getting on his motorbike and taking his girlfriend for a ride was a good idea. It wasn't, and Helms suffered "a broken leg, ankle, jaw, and nose during the accident, as well as sustaining other fractures and receiving over 200 stitches, while his girlfriend sustained a broken vertebrate".

 

Seriously??? Daaaaaaaaaang. Was he still wrestling before this?

[Stennick]

No he's been released from the WWE since February of LAST year so he's been unemployed for a year and a half now, well in the sense of no major wrestling work.

[Jaysin]

He was doing indie stuff and he was working for Lucha Libre USA

[Candyman]

He was doing indie stuff and he was working for Lucha Libre USA

 

And using Twitter to take shots at HBK that haven't been accurate in a decade.

[justtxyank]

On Bagwell, he could have been world champ. He had good charisma and a great look and (as mentioned) before the major injury was pretty fun to watch in the ring. He could have been a US champ easily.

 

After the neck injury he was still passable in the ring and had a TON of face sympathy. WCW messed up a good thing though. When the crowd is reacting to you the way they were reacting to Bagwell, why not capitalize on that? Instead they had him play it up for a minute, turn right back heel and be Scott Steiner's lackey. Then when they finally turned him face they did a lot of stupid stuff like bringing his mother into the picture. A dumb feud with Piper...

 

ugh.

 

I know the guy was a prick apparently, but he had all the stuff to be a main eventer and most people knew it. The wrestling mags loved the guy. I remember WOW Magazine running an article about how Bagwell pinned Flair in a six man tag and how that could be the start of his push. It was squandered of course.

 

Good look? Check

Cool finisher? Check

Good charisma? Check

In-Ring talent? Check

[juggaloninjalee]

What happened with Buff in the WWF? I remember WCW had a match on Raw after it was bought out and I think it was Buff vs Booker T or something but I don't remember seeing Bagwell after that.