The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Wrestling Century]

Johnny Ace is all about psychology and in-ring storytelling. Not sure why people think he's nothing but sports entertainment. This is a guy who was modeled himself after Japan and tried as hard as he could to implement as much of the Japanese model into US wrestling as he could. You know those near falls and false finishes that people like so much? Johnny Ace brought those to the US with WCW. He scolded WCW for not treating moves correctly.

 

I think people need to realize that the wrestling of old is dead. It is sports entertainment. That's all that's left and it will never come back. Accept it and try to enjoy the product for what it is or move on like I have. Don't look for people to blame either because there are too many too count.

 

Right, so I guess Ring of Honor and most of the puroresu promotions don't count as "wrestling of old". They are not based aroung "sports entertainment".

[djthefunkchris]

I tend to avoid these conversations because I'm not really the type to complain if I don't like a storyline, but a few observations from the last few days of WW_ programming:

 

- Not sure what they are doing with Mark Henry...Not a dig at him, I like Mark Henry, but when a heel challenger cleanly pins a face champ it's usually to set up a different face stepping in to get the heel ... does this mean the 'Age of Sheamus' is upon us? Cena unifiying the belts? 'Cause Randy Orton coming back to beat Henry clean next month is kinda...dumb

 

- Not really a Del Rio fan but yeah, building him up to tear him back down that quick is odd. I know the "Good Guy" should win in the end but did Del Rio even make one defense of the belt? Even a tainted win? A count-out loss? Atleast Rikishi coulda run over Cena with Del Rio's car... something, anything ... IDK maybe something is going on backstage but seems like a waste

 

- The WW_ has spent the last year tailoring itself to the kiddies...then they go with a convoluted CM Punk 'Shoot promo'...Johny Ace & Kevin Nash conspiracy...HHH is the boss...is it the 'NEW' nWo or isn't it storyline that quite honestly I'd imagine totally and completely confuses and bores the living s*** out of anyone under the age of 14

 

 

Sadly as the Johnny Aces, Triple H's and Stephanie McMahons take over in Stamford, the 'art' of wrestling may die, leaving only "Sports Entertainment" in it's place...There seems to be no psychology, no storytelling in their product...just 'high spot...big turn...celebrity appearance...Cena or Orton wins...repeat formula..." Hopefully the whole CM Punk/Triple H story proves me, and many others, wrong but for now, RAW just looks like a variety show with some wrestling thrown in to keep us watching...I'll be on YouTube watching some old GCW or NWA clips until they get things fixed...

 

 

Of course that's just my opinion...I could be wrong

 

 

 

Your right for you though. To me this critique is based around what you know, instead of guessing what you don't know, and even when guessing, you brought up good or bad scenario's... meaning you sound objective over your critique, although your not particularly liking what's going on.

 

I didn't think of that before, but I think when people guess what's going to happen, and just assume the worse possible scenario without even throwing something else out there that could make it not so bad... it really makes their whole point meaningless to most people.

 

And as someone said, the same can be said going the other way, when you don't mention anything but the best possible scenario you can think of making everything out better then it is, makes that whole point meaningless.

 

I ride in between and lean toward "liking" moreso then not liking. Your post suggests you lean the opposite way. Yet, I agree with most of your post, if not all of it.

[Hive]

Night of Champions killed off the interest in WWE I got back after the whole Punk thing.

 

- Henry pinning Orton cleanly to become a world champion. OMG... wtf? HENRY??? Why oh why....?

 

- Del Rio losing the other world title to Super Cena after an unspectacular title run that lasted... 1 month or so? Thank God they had Del Rio win both the Royal Rumble and Money in The Bank for this major payoff. And good thing we saw the title back on Cena, it's been so long since he last ruined another guy's momentum by getting it for no reason. At least a couple of months.

 

- Triple H winning against Punk. Seriously, that was just so extremely silly and unnecessary.

 

On the only upside, it's nice to see them try to do a bit with the tag team division again - which sadly seems to have been reduced to one token match per PPV, just like the diva division.

[Fantabulous]

Night of Champions killed off the interest in WWE I got back after the whole Punk thing.

 

- Henry pinning Orton cleanly to become a world champion. OMG... wtf? HENRY??? Why oh why....?

 

- Del Rio losing the other world title to Super Cena after an unspectacular title run that lasted... 1 month or so? Thank God they had Del Rio win both the Royal Rumble and Money in The Bank for this major payoff. And good thing we saw the title back on Cena, it's been so long since he last ruined another guy's momentum by getting it for no reason. At least a couple of months.

 

- Triple H winning against Punk. Seriously, that was just so extremely silly and unnecessary.

 

On the only upside, it's nice to see them try to do a bit with the tag team division again - which sadly seems to have been reduced to one token match per PPV, just like the diva division.

 

Dude, you've got to wait for the bigger picture to play itself out. It'll all make sense in the end, don't you know?

[bigtplaystew]

Dude, you've got to wait for the bigger picture to play itself out. It'll all make sense in the end, don't you know?

 

Whats the alternative? Hit the boards with great vengence and furious anger?

 

You could at at least wait and see what happens before the uproar... just sayin...

[soxfan93]

Not particularly important or exciting, but did anyone else notice the WWE couldn't even be bothered to get a new ring apron as the Womens Championship belt was still on the ring apron Sunday night

 

Don't worry, I pointed it out to my dad haha.

 

Whats the alternative? Hit the boards with great vengence and furious anger?

 

You could at at least wait and see what happens before the uproar... just sayin...

 

Some of us can already see the bigger picture:

 

- Mark Henry keeps the belt until Big Show comes back.

 

- John Cena keeps the title for a while, before losing it inside the Elimination Chamber, probably to CM Punk. I expect The Rock to screw him.

 

- Triple H was obviously going to win, it was just unfortunate that there was no real screwjob. Triple H should have turned heel and joined Nash, Miz, and Truth. Unfortunately, the rumors of a Team Punk vs. Team Triple H match at Survivor Series is now out the window, because WWE can't do anything right these days.

 

There is your "bigger picture."

[Hive]

Dude, you've got to wait for the bigger picture to play itself out. It'll all make sense in the end, don't you know?

 

"Hey maybe it will take a turn in the end that suddenly turns all this current crap into gold! You shall not judge!"

 

I know you're kidding, but too many people seem to actually think that way.

 

First of all, it's silly to say you cannot judge a storyline while it's ongoing and have to wait untill it's completed. A storyline is NOT only about the end result.

 

Secondly... while Punk's loss *may* (but probably won't) be rectified later on in the storyline, I fail to see how someone as irrelevant and not-over as Mark Henry pinning their 2. biggest name cleanly for a world title will ever make sense. Did you see the reactions in the crowd? No? Well that's because there were no reactions. People were either just stunned in disbelief or couldn't bother to care enough about Henry to neither boo no cheer. Likewise, in no way can I see WWE doing ANYTHING that will make me go "oh yeah, now it makes sense to have Super Cena win the belt for the 6th time this year and completely wreck the momentum they spent all year building for Del Rio".

[Fantabulous]

"Hey maybe it will take a turn in the end that suddenly turns all this current crap into gold! You shall not judge!"

 

I know you're kidding, but too many people seem to actually think that way.

 

First of all, it's silly to say you cannot judge a storyline while it's ongoing and have to wait untill it's completed. A storyline is NOT only about the end result.

 

Secondly... while Punk's loss *may* (but probably won't) be rectified later on in the storyline, I fail to see how someone as irrelevant and not-over as Mark Henry pinning their 2. biggest name cleanly for a world title will ever make sense. Did you see the reactions in the crowd? No? Well that's because there were no reactions. People were either just stunned in disbelief or couldn't bother to care enough about Henry to neither boo no cheer. Likewise, in no way can I see WWE doing ANYTHING that will make me go "oh yeah, now it makes sense to have Super Cena win the belt for the 6th time this year and completely wreck the momentum they spent all year building for Del Rio".

Now you're just being a negative nilly.

[Mr Rager]

Why does Henry beating Orton clean require a HiaC rematch? The only match at NoC that necessitates such a stipulation as Punk/Triple H and, shockingly, we're not getting that.

 

The event is called Hell In A Cell, so it has to be a Hell In A Cell match.

 

I hate the match type specific PPVs, because - as you allude to - they pretty much take all meaning out of the gimmick match that they're named after. It totally removes the surprise element, as well. HIAC matches, Elimination Chamber matches and TLC matches have very little meaning in WWE now. The only one which makes sense is Money In The Bank, but I even preferred that on the Wrestlemania undercard.

[Tha Black Phenom]

- Triple H winning against Punk. Seriously, that was just so extremely silly and unnecessary.

 

On the only upside, it's nice to see them try to do a bit with the tag team division again - which sadly seems to have been reduced to one token match per PPV, just like the diva division.

 

You're sticking out your tongue already at an end result when you don't know where it's headed. That's why a storyline may not only be about the end result but it's a pretty big part of it, to be taken into account if you don't know it yet.

 

Going off from last night, they clearly have a plan for HHH staying face, and for him having won last night. What would you have done for a Punk win? You'd have to put yourself in the creative team's shoes, prance around to find a replacement in the COO position, where I bet WWE would've gone with a silly move like appointing Vickie or some crap because for all we know, Vince/Steph aren't in their cards anymore and we don;t know it. But that direction is the one you wanted it to go in, WWE mapping something out otherwise is far from silly or unnecessary, unless they eventually muck the angle up some way.

[Hive]

Now you're just being a negative nilly.

 

That's just how I roll.

 

You're sticking out your tongue already at an end result when you don't know where it's headed. That's why a storyline may not only be about the end result but it's a pretty big part of it, to be taken into account if you don't know it yet.

 

Going off from last night, they clearly have a plan for HHH staying face, and for him having won last night. What would you have done for a Punk win? You'd have to put yourself in the creative team's shoes, prance around to find a replacement in the COO position, where I bet WWE would've gone with a silly move like appointing Vickie or some crap because for all we know, Vince/Steph aren't in their cards anymore and we don;t know it. But that direction is the one you wanted it to go in, WWE mapping something out otherwise is far from silly or unnecessary, unless they eventually muck the angle up some way.

 

What I would have done? I wouldn't have made that dumb stipulation in the first place if I didn't have someone to (temporarily) replace Triple H with.

 

But they could have had Nash turn on Triple H only, leading Punk to win the match due to that interference. Johnny Ace would then gain (temporary) control instead of Triple H, with The Miz and R-Truth as his henchmen. We could then have Miz and Truth vs. Triple H and Punk at the next PPV, with Nash again interfering on behalf of Ace. That could in turn lead to a Triple H vs. Punk vs. Nash triple threat match at the PPV after that, assuming that Nash could pull that off without pulling a muscle.

 

At any rate, I just don't see any good reasons - storyline or otherwise - for having Triple H go over Punk. Punk was the hottest thing in wrestling a couple of months ago, but WWE seems sort of busy trying to kill that heat. What does Triple H gain at this point of his career from winning over Punk? Nothing. All it does is hurt Punk's momentum for no good reason. And it doesn't even seem like he'll be getting a rematch anytime soon.

[Tha Black Phenom]

See, every time I question someone's view on a certain result or angle, they come out with a whole diary-mapped scenario from their own mind about what to do. And nothing wrong with that, we all have our own imaginations... just don't see why WWE has be to chastised for it. If it didn't work out the way you wanted, make a diary of it or something.

 

I mean in my opinion, putting Johnny Ace anywhere up there, temporary COO or whatever would be a turn off for me. Can't stand the guy, I consider it a blessing he gets minimal mic time.

 

Punk losing doesn't hurt his momentum that much, cause in case you haven't noticed.. he's back into the title picture. And he got the pin in the main-event last night(WITH the hot tag). Maybe it's on that end that Candyman is right, wins and losses don't matter on several aspects. HHH closing out the PPV mainly sticks out to you(and other HHH detractors).

[Fantabulous]

The notion of WWE mapping anything out is funny at the best of times, but it's funnier given the Punk interview from a day or two ago where he mentioned that he had no idea who he'd be facing on Raw "because it's already changed about 152 times in the last hour.""

[Teh_Showtime]

It has been well noted that WWE plans things out in advance, but Vince often changes things multiple times the day of the show. Paul Heyman and Dave Lagana have said this specifically.

[Hive]

See, every time I question someone's view on a certain result or angle, they come out with a whole diary-mapped scenario from their own mind about what to do. And nothing wrong with that, we all have our own imaginations... just don't see why WWE has be to chastised for it. If it didn't work out the way you wanted, make a diary of it or something.

 

Dude. You flat out asked:

 

What would you have done for a Punk win?

 

...and then I tell you. If you don't want to know, don't ask.

 

And in no way did I chastitise WWE for not doing exactly what I would have done, I chastitise WWE for doing one of the few outcomes of the match I did not like: Triple H cleanly pinning Punk. There's a huge difference.

 

And seriously, are you saying that if anyone feels like critizing WWE we should just shut up and do a diary instead? Because it sounds like that's what you're saying. And if that is indeed your viewpoint, all I have to say is this:

 

I mean in my opinion, putting Johnny Ace anywhere up there, temporary COO or whatever would be a turn off for me. Can't stand the guy, I consider it a blessing he gets minimal mic time.

 

Oh but if they do that, I'm sure you won't complain one bit about it and just do a diary instead. Or alternatively, shut up and love it untill you see where the storyline ends. Because that's what good fanboys do.

 

Punk losing doesn't hurt his momentum that much, cause in case you haven't noticed.. he's back into the title picture. And he got the pin in the main-event last night(WITH the hot tag). Maybe it's on that end that Candyman is right, wins and losses don't matter on several aspects. HHH closing out the PPV mainly sticks out to you(and other HHH detractors).

 

Let me ask you the following then: who or what gained from Triple H going cleanly over Punk?

[soxfan93]

Let me ask you the following then: who or what gained from Triple H going cleanly over Punk?

 

I wouldn't say Trips won cleanly, since there was interference from Laurinaitis, R-Truth, The Miz, and Kevin Nash. And again, it was so obvious that Triple H was going to win anyway, given the stipulation.

 

I'm interested to see where this goes, but I certainly don't expect it to lead to something great.

[bigtplaystew]

Fantabulous, just this morning (EST) you tried to call a dude out for making a thinly veiled personal attack yet just about every single post you've put up since then contains one.

 

 

Now.

 

Let me ask you the following then: who or what gained from Triple H going cleanly over Punk?

 

In no way shape or form do I define HHH's victory over Punk as "clean". Actually, before the multiple interferences, Punk was looking pretty good in there.

 

 

 

I also never once said that anyone can or can't judge a storyline as it's happening. I just would prefer to watch a storyline play out rather than break it down piece by piece. Thats my choice. And apparently I'm being made fun of for doing so.

 

I did say that I think some people are constantly negative. I tend to put more stock in the opinions of people who are a little less constantly and overtly biased.

 

I feel like 90% of this board in general is a normal wrestling fan. We like some things, hate other things. Then we talk about them. Sometimes bitter arguments ensue, but it's all in good fun.

 

Then there's the other 10%... thats just comedy.

[Hive]

In no way shape or form do I define HHH's victory over Punk as "clean". Actually, before the multiple interferences, Punk was looking pretty good in there.

 

Well. The question wasn't in any way directed to you, but okay then...

 

They were both equally attacked and they both recovered from those attacks equally. Thus, they were both equal in terms of interference at the finish - in which Triple H cleanly pinned Punk, without any *recent* interference, after having heroically taken out Nash as well.

 

I also never once said that anyone can or can't judge a storyline as it's happening. I just would prefer to watch a storyline play out rather than break it down piece by piece. Thats my choice. And apparently I'm being made fun of for doing so.

 

Again, not sure why you believe I was talking to you when I was clearly responding to someone else. Unless you two are both the same person who just happens to enjoy having multiple accounts, of course.

 

At any rate, I'm not making fun at anyone for choosing to not judge any storylines untill they have ended. I'm just pointing out that contrary to what *some* people here believe, it *is* actually possible to judge it in other ways. I'm not attacking anyone for judging the storyline only in it's full length, it was me who was attacked for doing otherwise.

[Hive]

I wouldn't say Trips won cleanly, since there was interference from Laurinaitis, R-Truth, The Miz, and Kevin Nash. And again, it was so obvious that Triple H was going to win anyway, given the stipulation.

 

...and that's why I feel they should either have done the swerve and have Triple H lose or not have done the stipulation in the first place.

[justtxyank]

Right, so I guess Ring of Honor and most of the puroresu promotions don't count as "wrestling of old". They are not based aroung "sports entertainment".

 

I meant as mainstream promotions. Obviously there will always be small promotions that crop up that do something different and international promotions are totally different as they play to a totally different audience.

 

But in terms of mainstream professional wrestling, it's dead. It's Sports Entertainment. The majority of people in America don't know what Ring of Honor is and never will.

[Teh_Showtime]

good thing ROH TV debuts this weekend though

[soxfan93]

...and that's why I feel they should either have done the swerve and have Triple H lose or not have done the stipulation in the first place.

 

I definitely agree with you in that the stipulation was a terrible decision, especially this early. If it was WrestleMania, yes, the stipulation makes perfect sense. And if I had my wish, Punk would win with the Pepsi Plunge. But unfortunately, WWE decided to rush a storyline... Again.

[Hive]

I definitely agree with you in that the stipulation was a terrible decision, especially this early. If it was WrestleMania, yes, the stipulation makes perfect sense.

 

I agree, it would have been perfectly fine if it was for a huge blowoff match at Wrestlemania (or any other big PPV for that matter) to end a long feud between them. But this way, it was too rushed, completely unnecessary and utterly pointless.

[bigtplaystew]

Well. The question wasn't in any way directed to you

 

If you want to have private conversations that I'm not privy to chime in on, do it in a PM, bro. You said something, I addressed it.

 

 

As far as "the stipulation" goes, I don't think that was the draw for me personally. I was more looking at who was gonna be interfering, how, and on who's behalf. Admitedly, I was expecting more but it's obviously all leading to something that'll break down at Survivor Series or maybe even beyond that. I suppose the storyline was advanced a bit and the plot thickened with Johnny Ace being shown texting and what not. I like that there's little storyline points that are happening at PPVs that aren't always getting brought up or made clear on TV. Unless I missed it, I don't remember the announcers question who Johnny Ace was texting. Stephanie McMahon was also seen leaving Cena's dressing room at Summerslam and that hasn't been brought up.

 

Now whether it's a loose end they never plan on tying up or it's all part of a bigger storyline, I guess we can wait and see.

 

I still enjoyed the PPV though. The matches were good and I'm watching every week to see what'll happen next. The current storylines have me more interested than I havebeen in quite some time.

[ThatChizzle]

Triple H had to win the match, because Punk was insulting his Wife, Stephanie. Triple H had to "defend her honor"