The Official TNA / Impact / GFW Discussion Thread

[Hyde Hill]

http://www.cagesideseats.com/2010/9/29/1719902/an-examination-of-tnas-appalling-treatment-of-talent

 

http://www.wrestlingforum.com/total-nonstop-action-wrestling/490790-backstage-details-how-much-money-tna-knockouts-earn-per-appearance.html

 

Quote from one of the articles:

 

of course, reports from credible news sources like The Wrestling Observer, the F4W Newsletter and the Pro Wrestling Torch newsletter.

 

Yeah I have my reservations. The only thing TNA could be guilty of is that the office makes mistakes as it pertains to letting workers do indy dates. Plus I agree with Lord Jaguar.

[Self]

I remember reading a interview a while back with a Footballer that plays for LA galaxy that while David Beckham is making all the money. He is only on 19,000 a year as a full time footballer and is still able to make a living from it

 

David Beckham made a ton of money back when he was in his prime, and still rakes in money from advertising, selling pictures of his kids, and sitting on the bench looking annoyed during World Cup games. I'd be stunned if he isn't set for life already.

 

The TNA "underpaid" argument... There is evidence out there that TNA don't pay certain members on their roster enough to make a living (Taylor Wilde's eBay exploits and Sunglasses job spring to mind) but I guess the counter-argument is "Do they have a responsibility to?" It's a wrestling gig, where you work a couple of days a month. Perhaps you shouldn't expect to earn a full-time wage unless you're an honest-to-goodness star. While typical TV shows pay their actors a living wage, is that true all the way down the card? From the star to the extra who has a line or two every 6 episodes?

 

TNA charging for 'their' guys and gals to work other indy dates is... understandable when it comes to dudes of a certain level; a much as I'd like to see MCMG on every PWG show, they have developed a certain reputation as TNA guys, are an in-demand act around the world, and are an important part of the TNA brand they wouldn't want getting hurt elsewhere. However, when you're talking about lower-level wrestlers, who aren't as important to the show, who aren't earning a hell of a lot in TNA, and for whom the extra fee will likely not get them booked... Another issue. From a purely selfish standpoint I hate it, but I can see the other side.

[LordJaguar]

I hate to say it but I believe TNA may be "right" on some of this. Wrestling was never meant to be a huge pay off, in fact many wrestlers of the earlier eras held other jobs outside of the buisness. Angelo Poffo, the father of Lenny Poffo and Macho MAn was a gym teacher by day and wrestler by night. The problem it seems is that WWE and WCW has spoiled the "average" wrestler into thinking they somehow deserve to be set for life. In other professional sports the guys riding the bench and just filling a spot do not have multi million dollar deals.

 

As far as charging for indy bookings...think of it in terms of brand protection. Even if these people are not used on TNA TV they are booked as TNA Talent and if they lose then TNA would look bad to the average, non-smart mark, casual fan.

[Fantabulous]

One of the power players in a national wrestling promotion calls into a podcast that, by the hosts own admission, has maybe 20 listeners, and proceeds to get into a pissing contest with said host where the ratio of insults slung to facts presented was roughly a gazillion to one. How, exactly, do either of them come off well?

[PeterHilton]

Could it be that the talent are just living above there means? I mean 35 grand a year to just work 3-4 days a month. Some people work 50 hours a week and wont even make that.

 

I remember reading a interview a while back with a Footballer that plays for LA galaxy that while David Beckham is making all the money. He is only on 19,000 a year as a full time footballer and is still able to make a living from it

 

OK I don't know what your personal idea of 'making a living is' but 19 K isn't even what someone would make off of a year on unemployment here in CA. I think that's a bad example.

 

The TNA "underpaid" argument... There is evidence out there that TNA don't pay certain members on their roster enough to make a living (Taylor Wilde's eBay exploits and Sunglasses job spring to mind) but I guess the counter-argument is "Do they have a responsibility to?" It's a wrestling gig, where you work a couple of days a month. Perhaps you shouldn't expect to earn a full-time wage unless you're an honest-to-goodness star.

 

This is a fair argument except that TNA does this..

 

TNA charging for 'their' guys and gals to work other indy dates is...

 

I think it's completely unfair that a wrestling company treats it's employees like 'independent contractors,' pays them less based on their place on the card, then includes provisions in their contract that essentially makes them exclusive employees

 

I hate to say it but I believe TNA may be "right" on some of this. Wrestling was never meant to be a huge pay off, in fact many wrestlers of the earlier eras held other jobs outside of the buisness. The problem it seems is that WWE and WCW has spoiled the "average" wrestler into thinking they somehow deserve to be set for life.

 

This is a ridiculous argument. Who cares what happened in 'earlier eras'? This would be like an NFL owner today saying "well I'm not going to pay my players these salaries. After all, Sammy Baugh had to sell insurance in the offseason."

 

Increased salary expectations is a part of the modernization of the industry. it's not 'being spoiled.' It's called 'wanting to earn a fair wage in an industry where your health is at risk.'

 

In other professional sports the guys riding the bench and just filling a spot do not have multi million dollar deals.

 

2010 League Minimum Salary (roughly) for..

 

MLB: $390 K

NFL: $310 K

NBA: $408 K

NHL: $500 K

 

Even the guys on the bench make a living.

[Hyde Hill]

One of the power players in a national wrestling promotion calls into a podcast that, by the hosts own admission, has maybe 20 listeners, and proceeds to get into a pissing contest with said host where the ratio of insults slung to facts presented was roughly a gazillion to one. How, exactly, do either of them come off well?

 

Did you actually listen to it and followed the actual postings this guy made on facebook? Look bisch took 15 minutes out of his day to school a typical smark in the bad sense of the word. Calling someone a moron does not a pissing contest make. Bisch just really dislikes these kind of smarks and if he is in the mood to vent and is called out in the way he was he will respond.

[Hyde Hill]

OK I don't know what your personal idea of 'making a living is' but 19 K isn't even what someone would make off of a year on unemployment here in CA. I think that's a bad example.

 

 

 

This is a fair argument except that TNA does this..

 

 

 

I think it's completely unfair that a wrestling company treats it's employees like 'independent contractors,' pays them less based on their place on the card, then includes provisions in their contract that essentially makes them exclusive employees

 

 

 

This is a ridiculous argument. Who cares what happened in 'earlier eras'? This would be like an NFL owner today saying "well I'm not going to pay my players these salaries. After all, Sammy Baugh had to sell insurance in the offseason."

 

Increased salary expectations is a part of the modernization of the industry. it's not 'being spoiled.' It's called 'wanting to earn a fair wage in an industry where your health is at risk.'

 

 

 

2010 League Minimum Salary (roughly) for..

 

MLB: $390 K

NFL: $310 K

NBA: $408 K

NHL: $500 K

 

Even the guys on the bench make a living.

 

And now compare the total income of those leagues + teams divided by players with TNA's estimated total income and divide it by workers.

 

Essentially those TNA employees are exclusive talent but they can get subcontracted where a part of the fee goes to TNA. Nothing weird with this.

[PeterHilton]

And now compare the total income of those leagues + teams divided by players with TNA's estimated total income and divide it by workers.

 

Essentially those TNA employees are exclusive talent but they can get subcontracted where a part of the fee goes to TNA. Nothing weird with this.

 

Hyde, that's not the point. Obviously TNA's minimum shouldn't be 500 K. But 35 K a year in an industry where you have no insurance and have to cover all your travel and housing expenses is garbage. And that's not counting taxes.

 

So..let's say that's less than 3 K a month...that means that a lot of their workers (say, the ones that moved to Orlando to be closer to the TV tapings) are probably losing money on their house show swings.

 

And i do think it's 'weird' that a piece of the action is going to TNA. Because - to me - that kind of arrangement makes you an employee which would guarantee certain things in terms of liability that TNA doesn't provide. This is just an 'imo' because the WWE does the same thing with it's interpretation of 'independent contractor' so it's probably not changing any time soon.

[LordJaguar]

One thing we need to realize is that other sports have competitive contracts. In wrestling there is only WWE than slide down to TNA then go all the way down to Indies. (Majors, AAA, College) in baseball terms. TNA has no way to compete with WWE type salaries and can go as low as "just above" indy pay offs.

 

Also I do believe all sports players are grossly over paid for doing less work than the average person.

[PeterHilton]

Yeah I have my reservations. The only thing TNA could be guilty of is that the office makes mistakes as it pertains to letting workers do indy dates. Plus I agree with Lord Jaguar.

 

Also..I read through that article. And you may not like the rag-sheets but there were also first person interviews and well documented examples given at for every point that was brought up.

 

TNA doesn't pay for medical procedures resulting from injuries. They don't. And you can defend every other decision TNA makes in terms of who they pay and why, but I think it's totally unethical for a 'national' company to force it's workers to pay out of pocket their surgery costs.

[LordJaguar]

I work for a Global Steel company and they do not pay for any surgery I need willy nilly. Unless I am hurt at work due to some fault of the company guess whose pocket it is coming out of?

[PeterHilton]

Also I do believe all sports players are grossly over paid for doing less work than the average person.

 

 

You can't get ten thousand people to go pay $80 a ticket to watch the average person to do their job.

 

Welcome to the entertainment industry.

[PeterHilton]

I work for a Global Steel company and they do not pay for any surgery I need willy nilly. Unless I am hurt at work due to some fault of the company guess whose pocket it is coming out of?

 

Ummmmm....not to point out the obvious....but an athletic performer who injures himself while performing is 'at work' and the liability does actually belong to the company holding the event.

[Hyde Hill]

Hyde, that's not the point. Obviously TNA's minimum shouldn't be 500 K. But 35 K a year in an industry where you have no insurance and have to cover all your travel and housing expenses is garbage. And that's not counting taxes.

 

So..let's say that's less than 3 K a month...that means that a lot of their workers (say, the ones that moved to Orlando to be closer to the TV tapings) are probably losing money on their house show swings.

 

And i do think it's 'weird' that a piece of the action is going to TNA. Because - to me - that kind of arrangement makes you an employee which would guarantee certain things in terms of liability that TNA doesn't provide. This is just an 'imo' because the WWE does the same thing with it's interpretation of 'independent contractor' so it's probably not changing any time soon.

 

Ok that is something different as that is industry wide and I agree with you.

 

Also who is to say that that is not just their base salary? And they don't get paid more for the house shows and get a slice of merchandise etc. Same as the E system. That is also the problem with becoming employees according to Foley. Kiss your royalties goodbye.

[LordJaguar]

Ummmmm....not to point out the obvious....but an athletic performer who injures himself while performing is 'at work' and the liability does actually belong to the company holding the event.

 

Maybe you missed the part of being the FAULT of the company...IE if the ring collapses then TNA should pay. If Hardy decides to dive off a ladder and snaps his neck...Hardy's fault really...(Unless TNA makes him do it)

[PeterHilton]

Maybe you missed the part of being the FAULT of the company...IE if the ring collapses then TNA should pay. If Hardy decides to dive off a ladder and snaps his neck...Hardy's fault really...(Unless TNA makes him do it)

 

Actually, no.

 

And this goes back to what I was saying about the wrestling industry's loose interpretation of the 'independent contractor' status.

 

If you work for a company and hurt yourself while in the performance of your duties (i.e. wrestling) then the company would be held responsible for paying for your medical costs, whether it's through direct payment or worker's comp liability. They don't have to be at all negligent. You just have to be performing your normal work duties. (although negligence definitely means that company will be paying significantly more)

 

Now, because wrestlers aren't 'employees' TNA isn't legally responsible. But - going back to that article - the WWF/E, WCW, ECW always pay/paid for surgeries from injuries related to being in the ring and for a company the size of TNA that should be standard form.

 

But -again - your example is moot because companies are obligated to pay for medical costs of any employee who gets injured while on the job, regardless of negligence. The only reason TNA gets away with it is because the wrestlers aren't employees.

[PeterHilton]

Ok that is something different as that is industry wide and I agree with you.

 

Also who is to say that that is not just their base salary? And they don't get paid more for the house shows and get a slice of merchandise etc. Same as the E system. That is also the problem with becoming employees according to Foley. Kiss your royalties goodbye.

 

Well no one knows for sure, but a PPA is generally just that: Pay Per Appearance . So they probably get the money for that house show run, but does it really off-set the cost of getting there?

 

These are just estimates, but let's take a look at the upcoming tour schedule:

 

http://eventful.com/performers/tna-wrestling-/P0-001-000010503-0/events

 

The rumors are that the midcard workers make around $600 an appearance. Let's up it to $700.

 

So let's say they work the 14th, 15th, 16th and are due $2100 in appearance fees. Let's say they are smart enough to have moved to Orlando for the convenience of being close to the tapings. They have the cost of the flight to PA (roughly $200 at minimum) the cost of renting a car to go from show to show ($200 would be cheap) fuel for the trip (which would be 250 miles just going from show to show, let's say $100 total), room and board (probably another $300) and food (they eat at fast food joints, so not more than $50 most likely).

 

Minus taxes..which in the US for independent contractors means you take out at least a third of the total.

 

And Mick Foley might be concerned about merchandise royalties, but let's be real: How many t-shirts are TNA midcarders really selling?

 

So what's that leave you with...a little over $500 for a week's work? IF you make $700 an appearance (which it's been verified that quite a few workers aren't)?

 

I mean..I suppose if the only comparison you have is minimum wage/entry level positions..then that sounds OK. But for anyone else who has any kind of decent job (especially one in the entertainment/media field where they see what 'talent' is paid) that's crazy low.

[juggaloninjalee]

One thing we need to realize is that other sports have competitive contracts. In wrestling there is only WWE than slide down to TNA then go all the way down to Indies. (Majors, AAA, College) in baseball terms. TNA has no way to compete with WWE type salaries and can go as low as "just above" indy pay offs.

 

Also I do believe all sports players are grossly over paid for doing less work than the average person.

 

Well the consumer is the one who pays player salaries basically. Take MLB for example. You don't go to baseball games for your team say... Tampa Bay or Kansas City and the players don't make as much money because the team will only pay players what they can do while still making a profit. Meanwhile teams like the Yankees can afford expensive players since they make more money and people pay more per ticket to go to those games.

 

Everyone in the baseball organization is making a lot of money. Not including vendors, ushers, and other jobs like that. People in the office areas and such make bank for sports teams. Owners make the most though... usually. They don't do anything usually. Not even their own finances because they are paying someone else to do it. Everyone who works in entertainment is overpaid. The system is kinda backwords.

 

If you look at a factory the floor workers usually work the hardest and are paid the least. Keep going up the ladder and the work is easier but the pay is more. I dunno just my opinion.

[lazorbeak]

Also..I read through that article. And you may not like the rag-sheets but there were also first person interviews and well documented examples given at for every point that was brought up.

 

TNA doesn't pay for medical procedures resulting from injuries. They don't. And you can defend every other decision TNA makes in terms of who they pay and why, but I think it's totally unethical for a 'national' company to force it's workers to pay out of pocket their surgery costs.

 

Pete, you're totally on the money here. TNA is taking a bite at both ends. "Oh, we can't afford to pay your insurance, travel, etc. costs because we're the little guy!" At the same time, "oh, we reserve the right to get a cut in any side deal you try to make because we're the big guy that gave you exposure!" So on the one hand, they're acting like the little indy that can't pay the bills, but at the same time they're limiting "independent contractors" right to work by inserting themselves into the equation as the one responsible for a worker's recognition. So as a worker, not only do you make far less than an "employee" without the associated costs to TNA, you also don't get the freedom that's supposed to come with being an independent contractor. The worst of both worlds! It's ethically abhorrent and borderline legal, but it's nothing particularly new in the industry.

 

As far as the argument that wrestlers should be paid like the dirty carnies they are (which is the argument being made, apparently), it still doesn't gibe with the fact that TNA is keeping those carnies from working other carnivals without getting a cut of the worker's paycheck. This inflates the dirty carny's asking price and makes it a bad economic decision to bring in Chris Sabin for my indy fed when Sean Waltman is $400 cheaper and it only costs him $50 to get him trashed. So not only should we pay these people like carnies, we should make them unmarketable to other carnivals!

[PeterHilton]

Everyone who works in entertainment is overpaid. The system is kinda backwords.

 

If you look at a factory the floor workers usually work the hardest and are paid the least. Keep going up the ladder and the work is easier but the pay is more. I dunno just my opinion.

 

Yeah...that's all pretty much completely wrong.

 

I'm really sick of the 'athletes/entertainers/actors/musicians' are overpaid diatribe. I get it. We all want to live in a world where preschool teachers are millionaires and corporate attorneys are shot and the rest of us are paid in rainbows and butterfly kisses but that's not the real world.

 

People in the entertainment industry are paid what they are paid because THEY are the ones generating the revenue. They have special talents that the rest of us have decided we are willing to pay to see. If you are one of these people that really think actors/athletes/singers/whatever are overpaid take a good look at YOUR job and say "how easy would it be for my company to replace me and my specific set of skills?" and then look at those "overpaid" stars and ask the same question.

 

As for 'the works is easier but the pay is harder' deal...that's pretty insulting to the people who went out and got those corporate jobs because more often than not it required years of continued education and lots of time climbing up through the ranks. Just because a job requires more lifting doesn't mean it's "harder."

 

Pete, you're totally on the money here. TNA is taking a bite at both ends. "Oh, we can't afford to pay your insurance, travel, etc. costs because we're the little guy!" At the same time, "oh, we reserve the right to get a cut in any side deal you try to make because we're the big guy that gave you exposure!" So on the one hand, they're acting like the little indy that can't pay the bills, but at the same time they're limiting "independent contractors" right to work by inserting themselves into the equation as the one responsible for a worker's recognition. So as a worker, not only do you make far less than an "employee" without the associated costs to TNA, you also don't get the freedom that's supposed to come with being an independent contractor. The worst of both worlds! It's ethically abhorrent and borderline legal, but it's nothing particularly new in the industry.

 

As far as the argument that wrestlers should be paid like the dirty carnies they are (which is the argument being made, apparently), it still doesn't gibe with the fact that TNA is keeping those carnies from working other carnivals without getting a cut of the worker's paycheck. This inflates the dirty carny's asking price and makes it a bad economic decision to bring in Chris Sabin for my indy fed when Sean Waltman is $400 cheaper and it only costs him $50 to get him trashed. So not only should we pay these people like carnies, we should make them unmarketable to other carnivals!

 

Thank you and yes...that seems to be the argument.

 

Does TNA underpay it's talent? I think the answer is "Yes" for the most part.

 

I think it's fair to say they aren't the ONLY company that takes advantage of the 'independent contractor' deal, but their booking fee deal and their policy on medical expenses seems worse than normal imo.

 

Beyond that, 'taking a bite at both ends' is a good way to explain it: "Hey, of course we deserve a cut of your fee ..the only reason you're a name is because you're on TV every week. What? You want more money? Listen, just because we're on TV every week doesn't mean we can afford to pay all these huge salaries"

 

I realize that it would be dumb to pay the openers and midcarders huge salaries, but they could be paid a little better. And the women - who actually are decent draws -probably should be getting a lot more (Kong saying she was getting $400 an appearance was laughable).

 

I still think an indy worker would be an idiot to turn down TNA because of the exposure but it's a shame that that seems to be the ONLY thing you're getting ..the exposure.

[juggaloninjalee]

Hilton have you ever watched Undercover Boss? Most of the time those CEO's and such admit that their job is easy but the labor jobs are harder.

 

I understand what your saying and I agree in a perfect world cops, fireman, teachers, and whatever would make a lot of money.

 

Wrestlers, actors, and entertainers make what they deserve. They ARE the product that consumers are paying for.

 

My point was just that its life get over it. If you think they are overpaid then don't buy the product.

[PeterHilton]

Hilton have you ever watched Undercover Boss? Most of the time those CEO's and such admit that their job is easy but the labor jobs are harder.

 

 

I work for one of the companies that was on Season 1 of Undercover Boss and I'm telling you: our COO said that because he knew it was the right thing to say and it was the right attitude to have.

 

Everybody appreciates the people who do hard, manual, menial jobs. It's a tough living. But does that really mean that their job is 'tougher' than CEOs who have to make decisions regarding marketing and finance and sales that affect the lives of everyone in the company?

 

So the guy pushing the bins for the waste company I work for has a 'harder' job than the Company President negotiating a billion dollar deal with Wal-Mart ...a deal that - if it falls through - could result in cutting several thousand jobs across the country?

 

It's just a ridiculously naive stance to take.

[juggaloninjalee]

I work for one of the companies that was on Season 1 of Undercover Boss and I'm telling you: our COO said that because he knew it was the right thing to say and it was the right attitude to have.

 

Everybody appreciates the people who do hard, manual, menial jobs. It's a tough living. But does that really mean that their job is 'tougher' than CEOs who have to make decisions regarding marketing and finance and sales that affect the lives of everyone in the company?

 

So the guy pushing the bins for the waste company I work for has a 'harder' job than the Company President negotiating a billion dollar deal with Wal-Mart ...a deal that - if it falls through - could result in cutting several thousand jobs across the country?

 

It's just a ridiculously naive stance to take.

 

I am the head of a marketing team for a company called All American Cab, and I work for an electronic contract manufacturer where I moved my way up from the production floor. SOME production type jobs are much harder than my current jobs. Harder physically and harder on my well being. Lots of labor jobs take their toll on your bodies. NOT ALL but some do. Bad knees, backs, and things like that. What kind of things can go wrong as a President or CEO? Stress can get to you and cause a bad heart sure. I still say some labor jobs are much harder.

[Stennick]

I am the head of a marketing team for a company called All American Cab, and I work for an electronic contract manufacturer where I moved my way up from the production floor. SOME production type jobs are much harder than my current jobs. Harder physically and harder on my well being. Lots of labor jobs take their toll on your bodies. NOT ALL but some do. Bad knees, backs, and things like that. What kind of things can go wrong as a President or CEO? Stress can get to you and cause a bad heart sure. I still say some labor jobs are much harder.

 

I've been working for 16 years now. I have done everything from short line cook to bus boy, to pizza boy before I got a degree. I own my own business with upwards of around 3 to 4 hundred clients and around 35 employees.

 

I have done their job because before there was 3-4 clients and 35 employees I WAS the job. I worked my behind off for roughly five years in three different states doing the job before I got anywhere. I can tell you that job is hard and everyday I did it I hoped one day I would be in the position I'm in now where I'm not associated with that part of the work.

 

That being said my job now is a hundred times more difficult. Working the "labor" job you work from 8-5 or whatever and then you got home. Me being the owner I'm always on the clock. I have to make all final decisions on my company. What advertising approach do I take, which new markets do I want to try and penetrate this year, how much growth and expansion can I afford to take on at a time, what new equipment needs to be bought and from where? Scheduling the employees proper days off and requested days off, balancing employees on call versus the actual work load so I'm not over staffed or short handed. Then comes problems such as insurance, customer service, stress. I don't get a day off being the "CEO" of my company. Every day all day I have to atleast have these things in the back of my mind.

 

Just because something is a lot of work labor wise doesn't mean its "harder". I worked in a garage door factory where my only job was to pick up and move giant garage doors from these tables to the loading docks. It was incredibly hard, they were long, not balance in weight and I had no help and a lot of times had to walk 500 feet or better with them without wobbling around, hitting anything or god forbid dropping them because that would have been my job. The job was hard physically with long hours but anyone who thought that job was more important than getting the stores and clients needed to run an entire factory oh and insure that we had clients to ship this factories contents to. Anyone who thinks that is incredibly naive and most likely has never worked a real upper management job.

 

Its nice to say when you're a bus boy or a cook that your job is harder but in reality as I said you clock in, you do your work you go home. The people that run these companies you clock in and out for don't get a time clock and have no such thing as a schedule or a day off. Even if you are only supposed to work 8-5 meetings run late, emergencies come up, things have to be handled or flat out something isn't done that needs to be done. There is no "leave it for the night shift" or "you're over your hours clock out and we'll call someone else in to finish it". 60 hour work weeks aren't uncommon for salaried employees especially in today's economy. Having worked both sides of the ball and having done so for my own company and at the same time I have no problems saying that running a business is an infinite times more hard than doing the labor part.

[PeterHilton]

Stennick's post is what I was getting at. Also...

 

I've been working for 16 years now. I have done everything from short line cook to bus boy, to pizza boy before I got a degree. I own my own business with upwards of around 3 to 4 hundred clients and around 35 employees.

 

If you ever need sales staff in CA let me know. I feel like it'd be easy to work for someone that I generally agree with this much.