Official MLB Discussion Thread

[BHK1978]

I wonder if the steroid players will get in (ie Bonds, Clemens, etc.). I do not know when Clemens started taking them but I know he was one of the most dominate pitchers before he did. So does that mean you do not count what he did in the 1980's? Do you just count what Bonds did for the Pirates?

[Stennick]

Bonds would have most likley gotten in even before his steroid numbers.

 

He was a five tool player (first 40/40 guy I believe) before he became larger than most NFL linemen.

 

Bonds won't get in on his home runs alone (unlike McGwire).

 

Everything I have read says that Bonds and Clemens will get in while guys like Sosa and McGwire will most likely not get in despite having 600 home runs and Sosa being the only guy to hit 60+ home runs in three seasons let alone back to back to back seasons.

 

Its not easy to separate the numbers and I think most guys are going to get passes but the guys that were getting in on sheer power numbers are not going to get in.

 

I don't see any pitchers being excluded and honestly I think the biggest leave outs of this roid era are going to be McGwire and Sosa with everybody else (Clemen's, Bonds, etc.) getting in.

[GatorBait19]

I wonder if the steroid players will get in (ie Bonds, Clemens, etc.). I do not know when Clemens started taking them but I know he was one of the most dominate pitchers before he did. So does that mean you do not count what he did in the 1980's? Do you just count what Bonds did for the Pirates?

 

you can be dominate, but what you have to figure out is what were their stats before they started taking them.

 

If they had hall of fame numbers to be in before then they should be considered. Also remember that the Hall of Fame also takes into account the character of players and steroids shows poor character to me.

[BHK1978]

What about A-Rod? Now that will be a tough one, if he does not have a serious injury in the next couple of seasons. I could see him not only breaking Bonds record but putting it far behind him. However, one has to wonder if the roids are what got him all of those home runs, or was it talent and roids.

[GatorBait19]

What about A-Rod? Now that will be a tough one, if he does not have a serious injury in the next couple of seasons. I could see him not only breaking Bonds record but putting it far behind him. However, one has to wonder if the roids are what got him all of those home runs, or was it talent and roids.

 

he says he didn't take it until he got to Texas. He was a 40/40 guy in Seattle

[Stennick]

He claimed he only used in Texas if thats true and I don't think he would put it out there knowing they already had his number if he wasn't truthful. Look at his HR totals for those three years, 52,57,47 and their very much so out of place with the rest of his numbers. His highest before Texas was 42. Now he did hit 41 in 129 games but that was his last year in Seattle and its possible thats when he started using. He then goes to Texas and jumps that number by 10 and then by 15 before dropping back down and only hitting 50 once in the last 8 or 9 years. All that being said if you take out those HR totals he'sI think he still gets in, his work as just a Yankee has shown that he's more than capable of those numbers. If you leave out his HR totals for those three season's he's got 449.

 

Even if you just put together his Yankee average of HR's per seaons and you place that number as his average for his entire career he's still got 594 home runs. So really aside from those 3 years in Seattle he's been a 35-40 HR guy a year for the last 16 years. A Rod still gets in IF those three years in Texas are his only roid years.

[BHK1978]

How about Bert Blyleven? 287 Wins and 3,701 Career strikeouts, I have no idea why he is not in there. I know he has come close in the past.

[GatorBait19]

<p>Okay so what about Jeter's acting?</p><p> </p><p>

I am a Rays fan and hate the Yanks, but I didn't see it as a bad thing. There is less the 20 days left in the season and the Yanks and Rays are the two top teams having one hell of a fight for first place (it's what makes baseball enjoyable).</p><p> </p><p>

Jeter saw a close play that he could turn in his favor and he did. Jeter would be the type of player I would want on my team because on the field he is willing to do anything (that doesn't hurt a player or himself) to win a game.</p>

[SaySo]

Troy Tulowitzki hit two more home runs, tying a modern major league record with 14 shots in a 15-game stretch, and the Colorado Rockies kept up their playoff push by routing the Los Angeles Dodgers 12-2 Saturday.

 

Tulowitzki joined Albert Belle (1995) and Barry Bonds (2001) as the only players since 1900 to homer 14 times in a span of 15 games. He has four multihomer games this year — all of them this month — and is hitting .394 with 35 RBIs in his last 16 games.

[GatorBait19]

Troy Tulowitzki hit two more home runs, tying a modern major league record with 14 shots in a 15-game stretch, and the Colorado Rockies kept up their playoff push by routing the Los Angeles Dodgers 12-2 Saturday.

 

Tulowitzki joined Albert Belle (1995) and Barry Bonds (2001) as the only players since 1900 to homer 14 times in a span of 15 games. He has four multihomer games this year — all of them this month — and is hitting .394 with 35 RBIs in his last 16 games.

 

Im not overly impressed because Albert was probably a roider, as was Bonds, and 9 of troy's 14 came at home.

[BHK1978]

Okay so what about Jeter's acting?

 

I am a Rays fan and hate the Yanks, but I didn't see it as a bad thing. There is less the 20 days left in the season and the Yanks and Rays are the two top teams having one hell of a fight for first place (it's what makes baseball enjoyable).

 

Jeter saw a close play that he could turn in his favor and he did. Jeter would be the type of player I would want on my team because on the field he is willing to do anything (that doesn't hurt a player or himself) to win a game.

 

I agree I have no trouble with it. People do it all of the time in baseball, it is just Jeter got caught. Heck I read that the reason why the bases are screwed into the ground was because Ty Cobb used to move the bases with his foot so he could make it eaiser to steal.

[BHK1978]

The Devil Rays just will not go away. Part of me loves watching the Rays and the Yankees play. However, another part of me is blaming them for the fact that they are making my hair go gray prematurely. These two teams are very evenly matched in my opinion and it would seem that this is going to go down to the wire.

[GatorBait19]

Gee, I wonder how that Swisher kid is doin'.

 

Do I really have to tell you what the difference is between playing on a team with an outside shot at making the playoffs and a team heavily favored to win it all? Berkman doesn't have to hit .350 with 55 HRs to contribute to this team. This aint the Astros, y0. We don't need him to carry us like the Astros did. He can just chill and let the game come to him.

 

And we're not sweatin' Cliff Lee. We'll get him after the season. Check out the 2011 rotation:

 

Sabathia

Lee

Burnett

Hughes

Webb (on the cheap! otherwise, Moseley)

 

Nice to have both the cash to go out and get exceptional talent and a fertile farm system in case the talent isn't out there. Rays have one but not the other, which makes them more dangerous than they otherwise would be.

 

Webb is signed with a club option this year. The option is 8.5 and is chump change to the D-Backs who could get a huge trading chip in Webb at the Trade Deadline.

 

Also Yankees have the 15 best Farm System. Now if you actually followed baseball you would no that the Yanks don't have any talent past Jesus Montero who could make an impact with-in the next three. In Yankee times they could be traded by then.

[GatorBait19]

That could be a reason, but also that park is horrible for pitchers. Rich Harden has ace type stuff, injuries have really derailed his career, but he went there. Kevin Millwood is another one of those guys who had ace type stuff who had some of his worst ERA's when he was in texas.

 

The Heat may play a factor, but pitcher don't do to much movement to kill their fatigue with the heat. I believe the biggest reason big time pitchers don't go there is because that ballpark is a hitters play house.

 

I'm not saying Lee's number will go up big time, because he has put his ace type stuff together to become that big ace. We will have to wait and see how he ends though

 

Here are his stats at the time of the trade.

 

 

13 games started, 8-3, 2.34 ERA, 89 SO, 6 BB, 5 HR's, .231 BAA, .95 WHIP, 5 CG, 1 Shutout, 91 hits, 31R, 27 ER, 103.2 innings. with 109.2 pitches avg per game.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=5353

 

now we can come back to this link at the end of the year and compare. If they are higher then I will short out his Home vs Away stuff to see how much of a difference it was.

 

Okay BHK we talked earlier about why pitchers don't want to go to Texas to pitch

 

Here are Lee's numbers now

 

Before Trade

 

13 games started, 8-3, 2.34 ERA, 89 SO, 6 BB, 5 HR's, .231 BAA, .95 WHIP, 5 CG, 1 Shutout, 91 hits, 31R, 27 ER, 103.2 innings. with 109.2 pitches avg per game.

 

After Trade

 

13 games started ERA 3.19, 12-8, 174 SO, 16 BB, 16 HR's, .240 BAA, 1.00 WHIP, 7 CG, 1 Shutout, 185 Hits, 71 ER, 79 R, 200 innings 107.2 pitches per game.

[BHK1978]

Okay BHK we talked earlier about why pitchers don't want to go to Texas to pitch

 

Here are Lee's numbers now

 

Before Trade

 

13 games started, 8-3, 2.34 ERA, 89 SO, 6 BB, 5 HR's, .231 BAA, .95 WHIP, 5 CG, 1 Shutout, 91 hits, 31R, 27 ER, 103.2 innings. with 109.2 pitches avg per game.

 

After Trade

 

13 games started ERA 3.19, 12-8, 174 SO, 16 BB, 16 HR's, .240 BAA, 1.00 WHIP, 7 CG, 1 Shutout, 185 Hits, 71 ER, 79 R, 200 innings 107.2 pitches per game.

 

Looking at that the numbers, they are really not that much different. I mean the W-L record depends more on the team for the most part. The ERA is up but I mean to me that should be expected because of the wear and tear of a full season. It is very hard to keep your ERA down as low as he had it before the trade.

[GatorBait19]

Looking at that the numbers, they are really not that much different. I mean the W-L record depends more on the team for the most part. The ERA is up but I mean to me that should be expected because of the wear and tear of a full season. It is very hard to keep your ERA down as low as he had it before the trade.

 

look at the big number though. He gave up 11 more HR in 13 games with the Rangers. What would that number be if the full year was with Texas? Pitchers don't want to go to a place where a simple pop up can turn into a HR because of how the ballpark was built (i.e Texas, NY Yanks, Rockies.)

[BHK1978]

look at the big number though. He gave up 11 more HR in 13 games with the Rangers. What would that number be if the full year was with Texas? Pitchers don't want to go to a place where a simple pop up can turn into a HR because of how the ballpark was built (i.e Texas, NY Yanks, Rockies.)

 

How many of those home runs happened on the road and how many happened in Arlington?

[GatorBait19]

How many of those home runs happened on the road and how many happened in Arlington?

 

lol okay you got me there, 5 happened at home and 6 away. Only thing is 4 happened in one game at the O's park against a red hot O's team and in a park that is known for being hitter friendly. You could be right, it could be me just looking to much into it because he went 1-4 with a 6.95 era in Aug and most of the games were on the road.

[BHK1978]

lol okay you got me there, 5 happened at home and 6 away. Only thing is 4 happened in one game at the O's park against a red hot O's team and in a park that is known for being hitter friendly. You could be right, it could be me just looking to much into it because he went 1-4 with a 6.95 era in Aug and most of the games were on the road.

 

No you are right about the Rangers Park be a home run park. I was just asking because I was too lazy to look the numbers up myself. Also, with the heat down there, I think that pitchers tend to get tired more quickly. Now that is the stat that would be interesting. Did is average innings per game go down once he went to Texas. If so than maybe the Texas heat took its toll on him.

[GatorBait19]

No you are right about the Rangers Park be a home run park. I was just asking because I was too lazy to look the numbers up myself. Also, with the heat down there, I think that pitchers tend to get tired more quickly. Now that is the stat that would be interesting. Did is average innings per game go down once he went to Texas. If so than maybe the Texas heat took its toll on him.

 

is avg pitches per game went down by 2, but innings he pretty muched pitched the same (even his first start he gave up 6 runs lost 6-1 to the O's and still pitched 9.0 innings)

 

It seems like the Rangers tend to keep him out there even on days he is struggling. he has 4 almost 5 games where he had given up 4 runs or more and pitched at least 6 innings.

[GatorBait19]

So espn has an article right now about the nats president leaving. What was interesting about it was the fact that you can clearly see the write state that the nationals were the first team two have the number 1 pick two years in a row with the 09 10 drafts. Funny thing is I remember the rays did that in 07 an 08 with price and beckham. Makes you wonder if espn reads their own articles they put up or if the journalist even checked his facts

[jbergey_2005]

Okay BHK we talked earlier about why pitchers don't want to go to Texas to pitch

 

Here are Lee's numbers now

 

Before Trade

 

13 games started, 8-3, 2.34 ERA, 89 SO, 6 BB, 5 HR's, .231 BAA, .95 WHIP, 5 CG, 1 Shutout, 91 hits, 31R, 27 ER, 103.2 innings. with 109.2 pitches avg per game.

 

After Trade

 

13 games started ERA 3.19, 12-8, 174 SO, 16 BB, 16 HR's, .240 BAA, 1.00 WHIP, 7 CG, 1 Shutout, 185 Hits, 71 ER, 79 R, 200 innings 107.2 pitches per game.

 

I think what you meant to say is since the trade he is 4-5 4.10 ERA. 4-6 after tonight it is looking.

[BHK1978]

Well first things first, I am glad to see that the Yankees finally got a spot in the playoffs.

 

Glad to see the Reds back in the playoffs (after all they are my mother's favorite team).

 

Sadden to see that the Devil Rays cannot not draw flies on the night that they clinch a playoff spot. I mean I know that stadium sucks but you have to show them some support. I agree with Price and Longoria said. Maybe the Rays would be better off in Portland...

[GatorBait19]

Well first things first, I am glad to see that the Yankees finally got a spot in the playoffs.

 

Glad to see the Reds back in the playoffs (after all they are my mother's favorite team).

 

Sadden to see that the Devil Rays cannot not draw flies on the night that they clinch a playoff spot. I mean I know that stadium sucks but you have to show them some support. I agree with Price and Longoria said. Maybe the Rays would be better off in Portland...

 

problem with the Rays attendance, which any idiot St. Pete fan can't see past because every team has done it, is the fact that the stadium sucks and the location is horrid. It sits off of I-275, but the problem is it's in the middle of the hood and parking and getting back onto I-275 after the game sucks. Also the biggest issue with the stadium the avg St. Pete fan can't seem to grasp is to the West of the Stadium the only attendance it draws is those Rays swimming in the Right Center bleacher and they don't pay for their seat.

 

The reason everyone (including the owners) want the stadium in Tampa is because of the simple fact that it instantly gives them a much, much, much bigger population with in a 30 mile Radius. They did a study a couple years ago when this was first brought up that if the Rays moved to the Florida State Fair grounds (or the property across from it) they would be within a 40 mile radius of 1.5 million fans, to where now there are only within a 40 mile radius of .5 million fans. That's a huge jump.

 

 

But this is simple. Tampa has shown that it is willing to support it's teams as long as they win. The Bucs sold out every home game for 12 years until recently. Now will the Rays do that, probably not, but that's more for the simple fact it's 82 games a year compared to 8 on your days off. Now could the Rays avg 27000 plus a night I could see that including selling out the important weekend series.

 

Also a big reason teams like the Red Sox's, Yankee, Phil's, Dodgers sellout so much is because business tend to buy packages that help attendance. A big business down in Tampa is Pepin which distributes Budwiser down here. They use to rent a suite at RJ until a couple years ago and they said they would be willing to do it again when the Bucs pick up, also they said they would be willing to do it if the Rays would move closer. Other business have come out as well with their support.

 

The numbers don't lie when it comes to the Fans supporting the Rays. Since 08 attendance has increased each year (not by much, but it has). TV Ratings have sky rocketed since 08, merch. sales have increased every year as well.

 

Lastly, the reason why the Rays don't sell out is because the Trop is just horrid. You sit so close to the next person you feel you must get their number after the game because that was your first date. The suites there are horrible and the con. stands a few and bunched in one area instead of spread out to limit crowd bunching. Also two get to the top floor you have to walk half a mile just to find the only escalator, did I mention there are only 2 if I remember right and they both only go up . I love the Rays and they are an exciting ball club to watch in the best division in baseball with the Yanks and Sox. But the hassle to get to the Trop and into the stadium and to your seat is horrible.

 

You could leave your house at 6:00 and still be Half an hour late to the game. Then if you decide not to eat while you are there (for the simple fact food, even at the Trop which is pretty cheap, is still expensive) what are you going to do for food? Can't go to dinner for the simple fact that it's about 10:30-11:00 by the time the games are over. Now in Tampa where you could leave by the office by 5:30 grab a mean at 6, and be half an hour late....... hm sounds better than option one.

[BHK1978]

Why did the Yankees think that it was a good idea to bring Javier Vazquez back? I mean it has already been proven that he cannot pitch in New York, and yes there are certain players that cannot play in New York (Nolan Ryan being the biggest name player who could not). So why bring him back?