Official MLB Discussion Thread

[BHK1978]

With the season right around the corner I thought why not start up an MLB thread?

 

First topic for me,

 

You ever notice there are certain players that you either think are still playing or you thought retired like three years ago?

 

Well anyway that happened to me today, when I read that Frank Thomas retired. What the heck? I thought he retired like three years ago! Well I guess not.

 

So assuming that Frank played clean his entire career (which I think he did), does anybody think he is HOF material?

[sabataged]

Another official topic....

 

Ya I think Frank is HOF material for sure

[BHK1978]

I would love to see Frank Thomas get into the hall of fame. However, I think he may end up like Jim Rice. A great player who just has something missing, that alone might mean that he does not get into the HOF right away. Also, he was very injury prone over the last couple of seasons (heck he did not even play last year) and I am afraid that because of this, it may have tarnished his career a bit.

 

I wanted to add that I know Jim Rice made it to the Hall, because what I just wrote might make it seem that I didn't know.

[Slagaholic]

Frank Thomas should be first ballot but he won't be. He'll get in without a doubt. He's one of the greatest hitters of all time.

[PeterHilton]

Frank Thomas should be first ballot but he won't be. He'll get in without a doubt. He's one of the greatest hitters of all time.

 

Statistically he's a monster. I mean, realistically he should be unanimous first ballot HOFer based on his numbers. He's going to retire as one of four players in mlb history w/a .300 batting average, 500 home runs, 1,500 RBI, 1,000 runs and 1,500 walks (along with Mel Ott, Ted Williams, and Babe Ruth)

 

He has two MVPs and four silver slugger awards.

 

Plus, his HR totals never flared up dramatically and the levelled off and dipped normally so you almost assume (although you never know for sure) that he did it clean.

 

Definitely in the HOF

[GatorBait19]

the only thing I think that will knock on Thomas is he was never the best at his position

 

and about the steroids thing

 

http://media.photobucket.com/image/frank%20thomas/saucywombat/FRANK_THOMAS_RC.jpg

 

http://webpages.maine207.org/staff/atrenkle/AADB019~Frank-Thomas-Studio-Portrait-Photofile-Posters.jpg

 

 

they head grew along with his body i guess, but that is beside the point, Frank may have never been the best at his position (1B/DH) but his stats stat that he is a Hall of Famer.

 

Personally I think the Steroid argument for guys up to vote is dumb as well, because all steroids does his help you get bigger, faster, and stronger. That might be cheating to some but don't protein shakes help you improve muscle as well?

 

Plus even with steroids you still have to hit the ball

 

But Thomas to me, steroid are not may not have been the best, like I have stated before, but certainly a Hall of Famer

[PeterHilton]

Plus even with steroids you still have to hit the ball

 

This argument has been disporven quite a bit over the years.

 

Steroids also improve the fast twitch muscles which create reflexive reactions. Sprinters get out the block faster, hurdlers and high jumpers can start their jump attempts a step later, and batters can swing faster and later in the pitch.

 

Steroids and HGH most definitely help you hit a ball farther, harder, and more consistently.

 

The idea that steroids don't help you hit a baseball is a lie the athlete's have told to cover their own asses.

 

Now..if you don't see why it's wrong for artificially improve their performance, that's a separate issue.

[PeterHilton]

the only thing I think that will knock on Thomas is he was never the best at his position

 

 

also (and I hope it doesn't come off like I'm taking a personal shot at you lol)

I would really like to see who was a better 1B from 1991-1997 than Frank Thomas. Seriously..who was better?

[Stennick]

Frank Thomas was beyond the best at his position him and Ken Griffy were neck and neck for best in the league. He's got two MVP awards. The last two years of his thirties he hit a combined 65 home runs thats pretty damn good.

[Slagaholic]

Frank Thomas was beyond the best at his position him and Ken Griffy were neck and neck for best in the league. He's got two MVP awards. The last two years of his thirties he hit a combined 65 home runs thats pretty damn good.

 

Especially when you consider that he did that with a grand total of half a knee.

[GatorBait19]

Frank Thomas was beyond the best at his position him and Ken Griffy were neck and neck for best in the league. He's got two MVP awards. The last two years of his thirties he hit a combined 65 home runs thats pretty damn good.

 

see you are saying that based on stats, remember defense? Thomas was never considered a top 15 first basemen defensively

 

But I can think of many 1B

 

Jeff Bagwell, Mark Grace (not a power guy, but all around good player).

 

But once again this isn't mean knocking Thomas, stats wise he is in but the Hall doesn't just look at stats anymore, they look at everything. To me Bagwell was a much better player than Thomas ever will be.

 

From his swing (a very sweet swing) but look at the stats

 

Bags: AVG. .297; HR 449; RBI 1529, Walks 1401; SO 1558; OBP .408; SLG .540; SB 202; CS 72; Triples 32; Doubles 488; Hits; 2314; plus a gold glove and MVP

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bagweje01.shtml?redir

 

Now before I tell you Thomas' stats, Frank and Bags were actually born on the same exact day and year, so they are the same age. For Fairness I will cut them both off at 05 to compare their stats next to each other up to the time Bags retired

 

Thomas: AVG: .301; HR 440; RBI 1435; Walks 1420; SO 1108; OPS .419; SLG. 555; SB 32; CS 23; Triples 12; Doubles 495; Hits 2077;

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/thomafr04.shtml?redir

 

Great stats by both but to me Bags was the better athlete, better glove, and a better 1B then Thomas

 

 

 

P.S Truly odd they had the same birthday, also they both won their first MVP at the same time but Bags was the ML MVP as well as NL, didn't know that was an award

[GatorBait19]

Frank Thomas was beyond the best at his position him and Ken Griffy were neck and neck for best in the league. He's got two MVP awards. The last two years of his thirties he hit a combined 65 home runs thats pretty damn good.

 

also no offense but no one touched Griffey, great all around, injuries truly destroied what I consider the best all around player probably ever, he is the Jerry Rice of the MLB

[PeterHilton]

see you are saying that based on stats, remember defense? Thomas was never considered a top 15 first basemen defensively

 

But I can think of many 1B

 

Jeff Bagwell, Mark Grace (not a power guy, but all around good player).

 

But once again this isn't mean knocking Thomas, stats wise he is in but the Hall doesn't just look at stats anymore, they look at everything. To me Bagwell was a much better player than Thomas ever will be.

 

From his swing (a very sweet swing) but look at the stats

 

Bags: AVG. .297; HR 449; RBI 1529, Walks 1401; SO 1558; OBP .408; SLG .540; SB 202; CS 72; Triples 32; Doubles 488; Hits; 2314; plus a gold glove and MVP

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bagweje01.shtml?redir

 

Now before I tell you Thomas' stats, Frank and Bags were actually born on the same exact day and year, so they are the same age. For Fairness I will cut them both off at 05 to compare their stats next to each other up to the time Bags retired

 

Thomas: AVG: .301; HR 440; RBI 1435; Walks 1420; SO 1108; OPS .419; SLG. 555; SB 32; CS 23; Triples 12; Doubles 495; Hits 2077;

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/thomafr04.shtml?redir

 

Great stats by both but to me Bags was the better athlete, better glove, and a better 1B then Thomas

 

 

 

P.S Truly odd they had the same birthday, also they both won their first MVP at the same time but Bags was the ML MVP as well as NL, didn't know that was an award

 

 

Great argument. I would say that shows that Bagwell should definitely be a HOFer too.

[GatorBait19]

Great argument. I would say that shows that Bagwell should definitely be a HOFer too.

 

Thank and once again I am not knocking Thomas, I think he was a great player with great stats, just not the best at his position at any one given time, sure maybe in the AL he ruled the 1B position for 6 years or whatever, but I believe until the emergence of Albert P. Bags was the man, he was more athletic, was more durable, better glove, and a great bat.

 

Today the people who vote players in look at a lot more than HR, if it weren't true Jim Rice would have been a first ballot, but many things go into it

 

 

Look at Dick LeBeau of the Steelers, the man is the 8th on the all-time INT leaders, just being passed for 7th this year by Sharper, has had tons of great Defensive teams, and just not got into the hall

 

They look at everything now, if you had a crappy relationship with the media (Bonds, Rice) they will keep you out of it, if you were a bad person on the outside of the game (Irvin) they will make you wait, numbers don't do it anymore, a lot more goes into it

[PeterHilton]

Thank and once again I am not knocking Thomas, I think he was a great player with great stats, just not the best at his position at any one given time, sure maybe in the AL he ruled the 1B position for 6 years or whatever, but I believe until the emergence of Albert P. Bags was the man, he was more athletic, was more durable, better glove, and a great bat.

 

Today the people who vote players in look at a lot more than HR, if it weren't true Jim Rice would have been a first ballot, but many things go into it

 

 

Look at Dick LeBeau of the Steelers, the man is the 8th on the all-time INT leaders, just being passed for 7th this year by Sharper, has had tons of great Defensive teams, and just not got into the hall

 

They look at everything now, if you had a crappy relationship with the media (Bonds, Rice) they will keep you out of it, if you were a bad person on the outside of the game (Irvin) they will make you wait, numbers don't do it anymore, a lot more goes into it

 

 

I think you're overstating the obvious here. The voters have ALWAYS looked at everything. That's why a true DH still isn't represented.

 

Rice was hurt by his relationship with the media, but his numbers also weren't exactly overwhelming (not even 400 HR or 1500 RBI at a power premium position).

 

Plus he was hurt because his candidacy came along right when offensive numbers exploded ...lotta 80 guys started looking bad in comparison: Garvey, Carter, Murphy etc

 

Frank Thomas put up historically significant numbers. He was bad in the field, and you could argue he wasn't the TOP 1b in the majors, but there's no way he's not in the HOF.

[GatorBait19]

I think you're overstating the obvious here. The voters have ALWAYS looked at everything. That's why a true DH still isn't represented.

 

Rice was hurt by his relationship with the media, but his numbers also weren't exactly overwhelming (not even 400 HR or 1500 RBI at a power premium position).

 

Plus he was hurt because his candidacy came along right when offensive numbers exploded ...lotta 80 guys started looking bad in comparison: Garvey, Carter, Murphy etc

 

Frank Thomas put up historically significant numbers. He was bad in the field, and you could argue he wasn't the TOP 1b in the majors, but there's no way he's not in the HOF.

 

 

I believe i said Rice had a bad relationship with them, but also Rice was considered the best LF of his time, and lead the league in HR three times, and RBI 4 I believe.

 

but enough of this, Thomas will be a Hall of Famer, congrats, next name

 

 

Bagwell will go in this year in my opinnion

 

Larry Walker; With out a doubt, based off stats, but Injuries and the Coors effect will play into it

 

Edgar Martinez; Great hitter, one of the best in modern age, but didn't play D

 

John Olerud; consistent, had two great years

 

McGwire; Finally came clean, so does this help his standing?

 

Rafael Palmeiro; Another great player at 1B but a roid user

 

Juan Gonzalez; Has been linked but never found to have done roids, to me his head never got bigger, but was a great player

 

Kevin Brown; Very talented pitcher, injuries killed him

[BHK1978]

also no offense but no one touched Griffey, great all around, injuries truly destroied what I consider the best all around player probably ever, he is the Jerry Rice of the MLB

 

Sorry but I have to disagree with you. Nobody compares to Babe Ruth (and I am not saying that because I am a Yankee fan). Babe Ruth is the best player in the history of the game hands down! Was Griffey a great pitcher as well? Until somebody comes along who can be a top notch pitcher and the greatest home run hitter of all time, nobody can lay claim that they are better than the Babe.

[GatorBait19]

hmm, very true, Babe was the best baseball player ever (so far)

 

I guess I should rephrase my self, Griffey is the best all around athlete in baseball

[BHK1978]

hmm, very true, Babe was the best baseball player ever (so far)

 

I guess I should rephrase my self, Griffey is the best all around athlete in baseball

 

Well there is no argument with me as to who the better athlete was. The fat man or The Kid.

 

Willie Mays might be up there with Griffey as well and maybe even Mantle (As both guys were fast and great OF's. Even though Mickey played on a bad leg for most of his career).

[GatorBait19]

okay for gigles everyone make a team, 25 players who you would want on your team right now, Past and present, just starters and one closer though

 

 

 

C- Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez; Probably the greatest catcher ever, great defense, and very soild offense (.299 average), Johnny Bench's career AVG played a part as well

 

1B- Albert Pujols; yes there have been many greats here Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, but this man, can hit, play defense (2006 Gold Glove) and plays many different positions (started in LF, played some RF, 3B, 1B, and yes even SS) oh and if it wasn't for a man named Barry Bonds and cheating this man could have had 6 MVP's before he even turned 30

 

2B- Roberto Alomar; Jackie Robison was close but the defense this man gave, plus the ability to hit and steal made him a the man to me, sorry eddie collins and joe morgan

 

SS- Ozzie Smith; The Wizard, I sacrificed power (A-rod) and all around hitting for a great middle infield, yes A-rod has won gold gloves before but Ozzie was a defensive player through and through

 

3B- Mike Schmidt; A sacrifice in AVG, but power and the glove were always there, Brooks Robison got beat out because of the power numbers

 

LF- Ted Williams; sorry Stan Musial, you were great but Ted was the LF man

 

CF- Ken Griffey Jr; The reason I went with JR or mayes (besides the whole best athlete thing is) Griffey in 300 less games is only 30 HR's away from Mayes and I believe still to this day that without the injuires with the Reds this man would be number one all-time on most offensive and defensive cat. (gold gloves)

 

RF- Hank Aaron; Reason I choose him over Ruth is simple, he was a much better athlete, and in this line up, you can tell defenisve ablitiy does play a roll

 

DH- Babe Ruth; 1 MVP and 2 All-Star games.... Really, because I would do AL I have the luxury of letting Babe focus just on hitting, what a great player

 

Batting Order

 

1) Roberto Alamor

2) Ivan Rodriguez

3) Ken Griffey Jr.

4) Babe Ruth

5) Ted Williams

6) Albert Pujlos

7) Hank Aaron

8) Mike Schmidt

9) Ozzie Smith

 

 

 

Pitching

 

1) Left Grove; Don't know the name, look it up. I read books about this guy growing up, and when you can post a .680 winning % you are starting with me, plus the 300 wins, and the innings he can eat

 

2) Pedro Martinez; Hands down probably the most wicked stuff I have ever seen

 

3) Tom Seaver; Great pitcher, need I say more

 

4) Walter Johnson; Man won 2 MVP's..... as a pitcher, 2nd all-time in wins

 

5) Sandy Koufax; hey you win 65% of the time and you can start here

 

 

Closer- Mariano Rivera; Listen this guy is the greatest, might not hold the record for most saves ever, and does struggle some years, but would you be willing to give any other pitcher the ball with the basesload and no outs in the last inning of the seven game of the world seires........ it's okay, ill wait

[BHK1978]

C- Johnny Bench, I had to put my mother’s favorite player on here. Also, he was one heck of a great catcher which is the real reason why he is on this list. Side note, both Yogi and Ernie Lombardi came close but at the end of the day Johnny to me is just a better fit.

 

1B- Lou Gehrig, I honestly believe he is one of the best if not the best First Baseman in baseball history. And it is not because I am a Yankee fan.

 

2B- Rod Carew, yes I know he played first base as well, but he is listed in the HOF as a 2B and I needed some more offense out of my infield. And if anybody fit’s the bill it would be Rod Carew.

 

 

3B- Brooks Robinson, I am going to throw Brooks in as my defensive third baseman. Yes offensively he was not fantastic but the guy was awesome defensively.

 

 

SS- Ozzie Smith, The Wizard of OZ was a fantastic defensive player much like with Brooks he is here for defensive purposes over his offensive numbers. And he had great speed as well.

 

LF-Ted Williams, as much as it pains me to put a Red Sox player on here. Ted does belong here. In my opinion he is the best hitter for AVG. ever. And if he did not go to both World War II and Korea he may have ranked up there on the HR list with Ruth and Aaron.

 

CF- Willie Mays, there a so many great CF’s who have played the game (heck the Yankees have two, who in my opinion would be right behind Willie). However, if you are looking for the ultimate five tool star here he is.

 

RF- Hank Aaron, this was another tough call because I really wanted to put down Tony Gwynn because he along with Albert Pujols are two of the best hitters I have seen actually play. However, at the end of the day Hank was a great home run hitter, hit for average, and played good defensively. And we all know Tony was no homerun hitter.

 

DH- Babe Ruth, following Gator’s lead I shall also put Babe in this slot as well. To me he is the best home run hitter of all time (Hank Aaron had a lot more AB’s and played in a longer season than Ruth did. And I am not going to even put Bonds into this because who knows how many “clean” homeruns he hit).

 

P- Sandy Koufax, his stats speak for themselves. Also it is always good to have a great lefty on your staff.

 

P- Cy Young, who am I to argue against the guy who has a pitching award named after him, for the best pitchers in the game? He also has the most wins of any pitcher in the history of the game, and he could go on short rest if need be.

 

P- Walter Johnson, the guy was a strikeout machine! Is there any other reason why not to have him on board?

 

P- Bob Gibson, for the intimidation factor alone. Just look it old footage of this guy, he looks like he wants to kill the batter (All though he said in an interview that he was not trying to intimidate the batters he just could not see the signs that Tim McCarver threw down).

 

P- Nolan Ryan, yeah his winning % was not all that great, just above .500. But I figure as long as my fictional team is not playing in NYC we should be okay. Nolan is another strikeout machine, and those seven no-hitters are not to shabby either.

 

Closer- Mariano Rivera, he is without a doubt the best ever in my book. Very few closers last year in and year out in that role and remain good. Mo has been able to do so. Now granted up where I live (in the heart of Red Sox nation), I always here idiot fans trying to compare Papelbon to him. And quite a few say that Papelbon is much better, but they know not what they speak of.

 

The only knock I have against Mo is that damn Diamondbacks series, which Gator eluded to. To this day I get pissed off when I think about that, even over the 04 series with the Red Sox, the Diamondbacks were in no way, shape, or form the better team and yet they won! Thanks for reminding me of that Gator…

 

As for a batting order, well I am not that great as a manager (I suck at OOTP) so I will leave that to the smarter baseball minds.

[GatorBait19]

C- Johnny Bench, I had to put my mother’s favorite player on here. Also, he was one heck of a great catcher which is the real reason why he is on this list. Side note, both Yogi and Ernie Lombardi came close but at the end of the day Johnny to me is just a better fit.

 

1B- Lou Gehrig, I honestly believe he is one of the best if not the best First Baseman in baseball history. And it is not because I am a Yankee fan.

 

2B- Rod Carew, yes I know he played first base as well, but he is listed in the HOF as a 2B and I needed some more offense out of my infield. And if anybody fit’s the bill it would be Rod Carew.

 

 

3B- Brooks Robinson, I am going to throw Brooks in as my defensive third baseman. Yes offensively he was not fantastic but the guy was awesome defensively.

 

 

SS- Ozzie Smith, The Wizard of OZ was a fantastic defensive player much like with Brooks he is here for defensive purposes over his offensive numbers. And he had great speed as well.

 

LF-Ted Williams, as much as it pains me to put a Red Sox player on here. Ted does belong here. In my opinion he is the best hitter for AVG. ever. And if he did not go to both World War II and Korea he may have ranked up there on the HR list with Ruth and Aaron.

 

CF- Willie Mays, there a so many great CF’s who have played the game (heck the Yankees have two, who in my opinion would be right behind Willie). However, if you are looking for the ultimate five tool star here he is.

 

RF- Hank Aaron, this was another tough call because I really wanted to put down Tony Gwynn because he along with Albert Pujols are two of the best hitters I have seen actually play. However, at the end of the day Hank was a great home run hitter, hit for average, and played good defensively. And we all know Tony was no homerun hitter.

 

DH- Babe Ruth, following Gator’s lead I shall also put Babe in this slot as well. To me he is the best home run hitter of all time (Hank Aaron had a lot more AB’s and played in a longer season than Ruth did. And I am not going to even put Bonds into this because who knows how many “clean” homeruns he hit).

 

P- Sandy Koufax, his stats speak for themselves. Also it is always good to have a great lefty on your staff.

 

P- Cy Young, who am I to argue against the guy who has a pitching award named after him, for the best pitchers in the game? He also has the most wins of any pitcher in the history of the game, and he could go on short rest if need be.

 

P- Walter Johnson, the guy was a strikeout machine! Is there any other reason why not to have him on board?

 

P- Bob Gibson, for the intimidation factor alone. Just look it old footage of this guy, he looks like he wants to kill the batter (All though he said in an interview that he was not trying to intimidate the batters he just could not see the signs that Tim McCarver threw down).

 

P- Nolan Ryan, yeah his winning % was not all that great, just above .500. But I figure as long as my fictional team is not playing in NYC we should be okay. Nolan is another strikeout machine, and those seven no-hitters are not to shabby either.

 

Closer- Mariano Rivera, he is without a doubt the best ever in my book. Very few closers last year in and year out in that role and remain good. Mo has been able to do so. Now granted up where I live (in the heart of Red Sox nation), I always here idiot fans trying to compare Papelbon to him. And quite a few say that Papelbon is much better, but they know not what they speak of.

 

The only knock I have against Mo is that damn Diamondbacks series, which Gator eluded to. To this day I get pissed off when I think about that, even over the 04 series with the Red Sox, the Diamondbacks were in no way, shape, or form the better team and yet they won! Thanks for reminding me of that Gator…

 

As for a batting order, well I am not that great as a manager (I suck at OOTP) so I will leave that to the smarter baseball minds.

 

I like your pick of Brooks I really do (at 3B) it was between Evan Longoria, Brooks, and Schmidt, I choose Schmidt because even is still only 2 years into this, and Schmidt also had a wonderful glove (not like Brooks and his 16 Gold Gloves, but 10 is still impressive) but he also had the power numbers to play the position

[BHK1978]

I like your pick of Brooks I really do (at 3B) it was between Evan Longoria, Brooks, and Schmidt, I choose Schmidt because even is still only 2 years into this, and Schmidt also had a wonderful glove (not like Brooks and his 16 Gold Gloves, but 10 is still impressive) but he also had the power numbers to play the position

 

I had a hard time with putting current players on the list because you just do not know where they will end up. If you would have asked me back in the mid-1990's I would have said for sure Chuck Knoblauch would have been a Hall of Famer. However, we all know how that turned out.

 

And I couldn't argue with Schmidt, he was a great player. I really wasn't sure if I wanted to go with Brooks, Schmidt, or Wade Boggs. At the end I went with Brooks, but any of those three could have made it.

[BHK1978]

Here is a topic that I hear a lot about, mostly because I am surrounded by Red Sox fans. Do you think Derek Jeter should be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

 

I say yes, but a lot of people that I know say no. In fact a lot of people say he should not even get into the hall ever. So what does everybody else think?

[Remianen]

Jeter is a first ballot Hall of Famer. Anyone who says different is a moron. I'd have to think about my team a little more. One thing I will say is home runs aren't going to be a focus of mine. I prefer speed over the long ball every day of the week. A team of burners would ALWAYS have RISP, you wouldn't need home runs when the team is running laps around the bases and chasing the pitcher(s) out of the game (pitch counts ftw!). So as much as I love the Splendid Splinter, Rickey Henderson's my left fielder (Williams would be DH). In school, people always thought I wore 33 because of Canseco. Wrong. Add 24 and 9 and see what you get. Besides those two, I'll have to think about it a bit more.