Official NBA Discussion Thread

[LiquidSwords]

I have been checking around on other basketball sites and I was reading about the contract negotiations between Amar'e and the Suns. Apparently he wants a max contract (6 years- 120 million). Based on how the Suns' owner is notoriously cheap I am interested to see if they are willing to let him walk or sign and trade him to some other team.

[CQI13]

He's not a max player guy (much like Boozer and Bosh). Still, they'll get their money somehow. His best bet would be a sign and trade, or he loses a bunch of money (the team you play for is the one that can give you the most money, right?). But then, Phoenix is stuck with someone equal or lesser than Amar'e for the same money.

 

Letting him walk would upset Nash (they got this far this year, but I don't think he'd want to rebuild).

[GatorBait19]

He's not a max player guy (much like Boozer and Bosh). Still, they'll get their money somehow. His best bet would be a sign and trade, or he loses a bunch of money (the team you play for is the one that can give you the most money, right?). But then, Phoenix is stuck with someone equal or lesser than Amar'e for the same money.

 

Letting him walk would upset Nash (they got this far this year, but I don't think he'd want to rebuild).

 

They could get a trade exempt. for him. Similar to the Magic last year with Hedo, you trade a player for money pretty much to use in another trade. Problem is I don't know how it works, how you get one, or if the team the Suns would trade would have one (Magic have one ). I do know it only last a year.

 

 

Also I agree with Boozer not being a max guy, but you don't see Bosh as a max guy?

 

He's 26 (wont be 27 till March of next year), he's a double digit guy (20 points and 10 rebounds) and his numbers imrpove every year. He's a high % type of guy who can shoot the 3 and make FT. You put him and Howard on the same team you're talking about the Twin Towers all over again.

 

I think Bosh is a def. max type of player (IMHO)

[CQI13]

LeBron is a max deal guy (though he'll probably take a 3 year deal this time, get max money next time). Wade is a max deal guy. Gilbert Arenas is NOT a max deal guy.

 

And while Bosh & Amar'e are not Gilbert Arenas, they are not in LeBron and Wade's level either.

[GatorBait19]

LeBron is a max deal guy (though he'll probably take a 3 year deal this time, get max money next time). Wade is a max deal guy. Gilbert Arenas is NOT a max deal guy.

 

And while Bosh & Amar'e are not Gilbert Arenas, they are not in LeBron and Wade's level either.

 

Okay so to you there are only three max guys in the NBA (LeBron, Kobe, and Wade?)

 

Also think about when Gilbert got the deal he was one year removed from scoring 28pg, 6 AST, and 4RB. Now he knee injuries caught up to him, but there is no doubt he could still put numbers like that up (depending on if he plays again).

 

Once again Amire is a 20ppg 9Rpg type of guy (IMHO) all three are worth max deal. (granted Arenas I am dating back to when the contract was given to him not now)

 

Here are players (to me) who are max guys

 

Lebron James

D. Wade

C. Bosh

D. Howard

S. Nash

K. Bryant

K. Durant

C. Paul

D. Williams (10 apg + 18 ppg)

C. Anthony

T. Duncan

A. Stoudemire

R. Rondo (Young, improved each year, and against the cavs looked like the best player on the court)

D. Rose (young but getting better each year, plus what he has done in the playoffs)

D. Lee (the sleeper in this year's free agent class)

D. Nowitzki

[CQI13]

Howard could be, but he needs more offensive game. Durant will get there. Williams probably more than Paul.

 

For a lot of the other guys, look at what they'll be making at the end of their career. If Duncan got the max, would he still be worth 20 million a year at 39 or 40? Rose hasn't done nearly enough to be a max guy. Is he a very good player? Absolutely. And as much as I love Lee, someone will overpay for him. Just like the Sixers did with Andre Miller and Samuel Dalembert (don't think either was a max deal, but they were compensated too well for their talents). Dalembert especially was getting 2nd man money when he was the third best player.

 

These max deals are a lot like the HoF (which is a joke in basketball, but that's another topic entirely).

 

It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good to almost Great. A lot of these guys won't be worth the 20 million a year at the end (see: Shaquille O'Neal, Jermaine O'Neal, Tracy McGrady). And two of those guys probably weren't worth it to begin with.

 

To me, the max deals should be reserved for the elite. By definition, it shouldn't be that many of them.

[GatorBait19]

Howard could be, but he needs more offensive game. Durant will get there. Williams probably more than Paul.

 

For a lot of the other guys, look at what they'll be making at the end of their career. If Duncan got the max, would he still be worth 20 million a year at 39 or 40? Rose hasn't done nearly enough to be a max guy. Is he a very good player? Absolutely. And as much as I love Lee, someone will overpay for him. Just like the Sixers did with Andre Miller and Samuel Dalembert (don't think either was a max deal, but they were compensated too well for their talents). Dalembert especially was getting 2nd man money when he was the third best player.

 

These max deals are a lot like the HoF (which is a joke in basketball, but that's another topic entirely).

 

It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good to almost Great. A lot of these guys won't be worth the 20 million a year at the end (see: Shaquille O'Neal, Jermaine O'Neal, Tracy McGrady). And two of those guys probably weren't worth it to begin with.

 

To me, the max deals should be reserved for the elite. By definition, it shouldn't be that many of them.

 

Tracy at one point was a max deal guy. J. O'Neal just went downhill and quick

 

but there is also a difference between Max Deal and Team Max deal.

 

Also when did the 76ers over pay Miller? I don't ever remember him getting a contract from them, at least not max.

[CQI13]

I may have Miller confused, but it was whoever they signed the summer they also signed Dalembert.

[GatorBait19]

I may have Miller confused, but it was whoever they signed the summer they also signed Dalembert.

 

you mean brand, which I can agree with. The year before he signed the contract his numbers had dropped and a shoulder injury the first year of the contract didn't help.

[PeterHilton]

You guys are being retarded. The 'max deal' guys aren't 'max deals' because oif their true worth or value or whatever.

 

it's because there are enough bad GMs out there that are willing to pay that amount that the market sustains thos econtracts.

 

Whether you want to admit it or not, Bosh, Amare, Dirk, Boozer... they're all getting max deals.

 

And besides..the max deal wannabe's who get paid aren't what kill a team..it's the cap space they waste on subpar guys.

 

Giving big money to a Bosh won't kill you. But giving that money (or even close) to someone like Ben Gordon or Sam Dalembert or Allan Houston, that's murder.

[CQI13]

I never said they wouldn't get max money. I believe I said they would. But they're still not "max money" guys. I will agree with your second point though. By that logic though, Ben Gordon, Samuel Dalembert, and Charlie Villanueva are max deal guys (because of bad GMs, the market, etc). No way they should be. And that's my point. Dirk, Amar'e, Boozer, and Bosh will get max deals. Whether they should or not is a different story (talent-wise).

[GatorBait19]

You guys are being retarded. The 'max deal' guys aren't 'max deals' because oif their true worth or value or whatever.

 

it's because there are enough bad GMs out there that are willing to pay that amount that the market sustains thos econtracts.

 

Whether you want to admit it or not, Bosh, Amare, Dirk, Boozer... they're all getting max deals.

 

And besides..the max deal wannabe's who get paid aren't what kill a team..it's the cap space they waste on subpar guys.

 

Giving big money to a Bosh won't kill you. But giving that money (or even close) to someone like Ben Gordon or Sam Dalembert or Allan Houston, that's murder.

 

yeah I don't think either of us care, I believe we were just stating (to each other) who we believed are guys who deserve to get max deals.

 

I have never understood why you come into conversations and start spewing out the mouth something we never mentioned. I believe we both know GM are going to be dumb and give out max deals to make sure they get their guy. CQ brought up the fact he believes the Max is meant for certain people and then I gave my list of who I thought were Max guys.

 

Not for you to run in like a damn chicken with his head cut off talking about why guys get max deals.

 

when Vince Carter gets a max deal and someone goes "What the hell were the Nets thinking" then you can come in with your knowledge

 

 

CQI13

 

He's not a max player guy (much like Boozer and Bosh). Still, they'll get their money somehow. His best bet would be a sign and trade, or he loses a bunch of money (the team you play for is the one that can give you the most money, right?). But then, Phoenix is stuck with someone equal or lesser than Amar'e for the same money.

 

Letting him walk would upset Nash (they got this far this year, but I don't think he'd want to rebuild).

 

 

What..... no way...... CQ already said what you felt you needed to comment on, very interesting.

[lazorbeak]

You guys are being retarded. The 'max deal' guys aren't 'max deals' because oif their true worth or value or whatever.

 

it's because there are enough bad GMs out there that are willing to pay that amount that the market sustains thos econtracts.

 

Whether you want to admit it or not, Bosh, Amare, Dirk, Boozer... they're all getting max deals.

 

And besides..the max deal wannabe's who get paid aren't what kill a team..it's the cap space they waste on subpar guys.

 

Giving big money to a Bosh won't kill you. But giving that money (or even close) to someone like Ben Gordon or Sam Dalembert or Allan Houston, that's murder.

 

Actually, Boozer ain't getting a max deal anytime soon. The market can't support it. He's a very good player, but he's not a "franchise" type guy, and so Utah isn't going to give him max money and there aren't any teams that particularly want to build around Carlos Boozer as their top guy. Boozer tested the water last year, found out he wouldn't do any better, and signed an extension. After his mediocre playoff showing, he has a tough time convincing anybody he's anything but a #2 threat.

 

The Thunder could afford paying Boozer (or Bosh or Lee) and it would be a significant upgrade from Nenad Kristic, but since Durant is most definitely going to be the face of that franchise, I'm not sure how much they want to pay a big guy to be the #2 option and rebounder. To whoever said he'll "get there," he just won a freaking scoring title. He is one of the elite players in the game NOW, and he's 21 years old. The thing is, he's stuck with his rookie contract through next season, so right now the Thunder's highest paid guy for next season is Nick Collison at 6.5 million. They have cap space coming out of their ears and they won 50 games last year with a young core in place including Westrbrook, Durant, Green and Harden. Only their status as a small-market explains why they haven't been in the conversation for top free agents.

 

But with the economy in the state it is team's are a lot less willing to pay max money, particularly for unproven or above-average guys. While teams have made mistakes, Alan Houston probably being the biggest, teams are starting to realize that if they spend star money on guy's who aren't stars, it's real tough to compete. If 1/3 of your cap space is on a guy who doesn't produce, you're sunk. You can't trade him, you can't go out and sign somebody new, you've got this albatross around your neck until the contract runs out (see also: Stephon Marbury, anywhere he played).

 

Oh, and yes, Howard will make league max, offense or no. He is the best center in the NBA. When you are the best at your position, you can demand superstar money.

[GatorBait19]

Actually, Boozer ain't getting a max deal anytime soon. The market can't support it. He's a very good player, but he's not a "franchise" type guy, and so Utah isn't going to give him max money and there aren't any teams that particularly want to build around Carlos Boozer as their top guy. Boozer tested the water last year, found out he wouldn't do any better, and signed an extension. After his mediocre playoff showing, he has a tough time convincing anybody he's anything but a #2 threat.

 

The Thunder could afford paying Boozer (or Bosh or Lee) and it would be a significant upgrade from Nenad Kristic, but since Durant is most definitely going to be the face of that franchise, I'm not sure how much they want to pay a big guy to be the #2 option and rebounder. To whoever said he'll "get there," he just won a freaking scoring title. He is one of the elite players in the game NOW, and he's 21 years old. The thing is, he's stuck with his rookie contract through next season, so right now the Thunder's highest paid guy for next season is Nick Collison at 6.5 million. They have cap space coming out of their ears and they won 50 games last year with a young core in place including Westrbrook, Durant, Green and Harden. Only their status as a small-market explains why they haven't been in the conversation for top free agents.

 

But with the economy in the state it is team's are a lot less willing to pay max money, particularly for unproven or above-average guys. While teams have made mistakes, Alan Houston probably being the biggest, teams are starting to realize that if they spend star money on guy's who aren't stars, it's real tough to compete. If 1/3 of your cap space is on a guy who doesn't produce, you're sunk. You can't trade him, you can't go out and sign somebody new, you've got this albatross around your neck until the contract runs out (see also: Stephon Marbury, anywhere he played).

 

Oh, and yes, Howard will make league max, offense or no. He is the best center in the NBA. When you are the best at your position, you can demand superstar money.

 

He didn't sign an extension, he just accepted his player option (I use the sense that an extension is a new contract) and tried to get traded but no one could take on his 12 million dollars.

 

Houston performed for the first two years of the deal just failed the rest . I believe the Thunder could be a player for Lee at 27 coming off a year which he did 20ppg and 11rpg he'd be a welcome addition. Good thing for the Thunder is after this season coming up they only have 3 million on there cap (they have more, but they'd have to execpt options and sign players. which they will no doubt). They then could sign free agents to join their team and then sign their guys afterwards and have a nice set team.

 

I like the Thunder if they could get a big man (Bosh, Lee or Amire) they could compete with the Lakers year in and year out for the number 1 spot in the west.

[GatorBait19]

Here is the biggest question for the C's

 

win or lose do you bring back Ray Allen next year?

 

I say yes, just at a much reduced price. He is consistent shooter who is going to knock down high 40% of his shots. Thing that scares me about the C's after this year though is their age.

[PeterHilton]

I never said they wouldn't get max money. I believe I said they would. But they're still not "max money" guys. I will agree with your second point though. By that logic though, Ben Gordon, Samuel Dalembert, and Charlie Villanueva are max deal guys (because of bad GMs, the market, etc). No way they should be. And that's my point. Dirk, Amar'e, Boozer, and Bosh will get max deals. Whether they should or not is a different story (talent-wise).

 

All true. I guess what I was saying is that you have to set the talent debate aside when you discuss the FA market because SOMEONE will shell out that money.

 

I don't know if I'd pay max money to Bosh because i've never seen him in a pressure situation. I don't think Joe Johnson is a max deal guy because he's a limited player and really doesn't add anything outside his offensive skills and i don't think those skills are good enough on their own to justify his contract.

 

But they're both going to get max or close to max deals because GMs can't help themselves.

 

So yeah..call them all max deal guys because that's what they're going to get paid.

 

yeah I don't think either of us care, I believe we were just stating (to each other) who we believed are guys who deserve to get max deals.

 

I have never understood why you come into conversations and start spewing out the mouth something we never mentioned. I believe we both know GM are going to be dumb and give out max deals to make sure they get their guy. CQ brought up the fact he believes the Max is meant for certain people and then I gave my list of who I thought were Max guys.

 

Not for you to run in like a damn chicken with his head cut off talking about why guys get max deals.

 

when Vince Carter gets a max deal and someone goes "What the hell were the Nets thinking" then you can come in with your knowledge

 

Stop being so touchy every time someone disagrees with you.

 

No sh*t it was your opinion on who deserves max contracts. I was just interjecting the fact about what those guys are going to get.

 

If you want to have a private conversation use PMs. I don't need to get your permission to comment on a post in the message boards.

 

PS David Lee is a guy actually "deserving'' of a max deal in the same line as Wade, Kobe, Lebron, Dirk, Carmelo, etc? REALLY? And I'm talking like a chicken with it's head cut off?

 

 

CQI13

 

He's not a max player guy (much like Boozer and Bosh). Still, they'll get their money somehow. His best bet would be a sign and trade, or he loses a bunch of money (the team you play for is the one that can give you the most money, right?). But then, Phoenix is stuck with someone equal or lesser than Amar'e for the same money.

 

Letting him walk would upset Nash (they got this far this year, but I don't think he'd want to rebuild).

 

 

What..... no way...... CQ already said what you felt you needed to comment on, very interesting.

 

Or they could trade for a package of players; if Lebron re-signs the sign & trade to Clevleand would be very much alive.

[GatorBait19]

All true. I guess what I was saying is that you have to set the talent debate aside when you discuss the FA market because SOMEONE will shell out that money.

 

I don't know if I'd pay max money to Bosh because i've never seen him in a pressure situation. I don't think Joe Johnson is a max deal guy because he's a limited player and really doesn't add anything outside his offensive skills and i don't think those skills are good enough on their own to justify his contract.

 

But they're both going to get max or close to max deals because GMs can't help themselves.

 

So yeah..call them all max deal guys because that's what they're going to get paid.

 

 

 

Stop being so touchy every time someone disagrees with you.

 

No sh*t it was your opinion on who deserves max contracts. I was just interjecting the fact about what those guys are going to get.

 

If you want to have a private conversation use PMs. I don't need to get your permission to comment on a post in the message boards.

 

PS David Lee is a guy actually "deserving'' of a max deal in the same line as Wade, Kobe, Lebron, Dirk, Carmelo, etc? REALLY? And I'm talking like a chicken with it's head cut off?

 

 

I wasn't being touchy, you came in here calling us retards stating something that was already said. We never said these guys wouldn't get there money. We just stated who we thought were true max type deal guys.

 

Yes, David Lee is a max deal type of guy. He's a hard player who plays both ends of the court. He score you 20ppg, grab you 10rpg and even diss it out 3 to 4 a game.

 

Problem is Lee has been stuck on a horrible team like the Knicks, but the Knicks hope to package him with Bosh and Wade/Lebron.

 

It probably wont happen though since he pretty much wants out of New York. On the list of free agents for this year (that I can remember right now) he and Bosh are your only double double guys. Like you said someone GM is dumb enough to give it to him.

 

 

Like I said Peter, that wasn't me being touchy (well for the simple fact that you agree with both CQ and I about the players will get paid). I didn't like how you came in here (once again, like a chicken with it's head cut off) to rant and rave about something we had already said.

 

Like Lazor told me once when I jumped into a conv. before reading it all..... READ THE CONV SO YOU KNOW WHAT'S BEEN SAID. You coming in here calling CQ and myself a retard made no sense seeing how you were the retard yelling about what we already said.

 

 

Edit: Not only that, but you were not disagreeing with me. CQ pointed it out before and I agreed and If anyone gets touchy about people disagreeing with them it's you.

 

 

PS David Lee is a guy actually "deserving'' of a max deal in the same line as Wade, Kobe, Lebron, Dirk, Carmelo, etc? REALLY? And I'm talking like a chicken with it's head cut off?

 

That's you disagreeing with me and then talking about me being a chicken with my head cut off. Which was odd because I said you were a chicken with your head cut off because of the fact that you came into a conv. with something we already pointed out at the beginning.

 

The point of the story Peter is you think you need to be heard on everything. Simple fact is that conversation was going well then you need to talk about us being retards because we didn't see the big picture (even though we already said that).

 

So please all mighty ruler, school me and show me where I am wrong like always? I'll be waiting for your all powerful word.

[GatorBait19]

 

 

 

Or they could trade for a package of players; if Lebron re-signs the sign & trade to Clevleand would be very much alive.

 

who are you talking about here?

[Stennick]

I know its only one game and all but the Lakers are blowing them out. I'm starting to look less crazy saying Lakers in five.

[lazorbeak]

The Celtics need to find enough offense to keep up with the Lakers, who haven't been held under 100 since the OKC series. With Allen in foul trouble and Garnett struggling, they just couldn't find the points from anybody else. Rondo needs to step it up.

[CQI13]

They'll trade wins somehow, extend the series to 6.

[Stennick]

I'll stick by my Lakers in 5. Everybody else everywhere has said 6 or 7 games I'm thinkin 5. The Lakers are the better team and I think people are letting the Celts post season run make them forget about their medicore regular season.

[CQI13]

No, I definitely agree. But if the Lakers win game 2, expect the calls to go the C's way in 3 & 4. Whether LA can overcome that (like Orlando did with Charlotte) remains to be seen. So I could see it in 5, but I really think the league will try to push for 6.

[Stennick]

I see what your saying you think the league will push the series or try to. Yeah that may push it to a game 6.

[lazorbeak]

No, I definitely agree. But if the Lakers win game 2, expect the calls to go the C's way in 3 & 4. Whether LA can overcome that (like Orlando did with Charlotte) remains to be seen. So I could see it in 5, but I really think the league will try to push for 6.

 

I'm not really sure where you're getting this. Will the league try to call things tighter? Maybe. But they still have to play the game. The Lakers/Magic series and Spurs/Cavs series were 4-1 and 4-0 series in the past 3 years, so it's not like a one-sided finals is unheard of. Or, I guess if you're in a conspiracy-theory mood, it's not as if anything the league has been able to do has been able to overcome those lopsided series.