Road Agent Notes Open and All Out combos

[mcorey]

A question on conflicting Road Agent Notes. Could you possibly use the following combination's together

 

1. Open Match and All Out

2. Open Match and Keep Strong

3. Open Match and Protect

4. All Out and Protect

5. All Out and Keep Strong

 

Thanks.

[Bigpapa42]

Open match is about each worker getting plenty of offense and looking good. All Out means they just go flat-out and the match isn't about telling a story but rather a sprint.

 

From what I know...

 

1. No conflict

2. Somewhat of a conflict, as it can't really be open between two workers if one is being kept looking more dangerous. Might be okay in a tag team or mutli-man mach.

3. Same. There's a conflict there

4. No conflict

5. No conflict.

[Greg McNeish]

I've never figured there was ever any conflict between Protect and anything. Protect is all about hiding a worker's flaws, which can be done in any kind of match. It's more about being selective with what moves are used, and how they are used.

 

For instance, someone like the Great Khali should have Protect in every match. If he's clobbering Zack Ryder, then it all about Zack not making him chase him around the ring, and not expecting him to be there for high spots. If he's getting steamrolled by Chris Jericho, then the same applies. Y2J would stick to doing the running himself, not doing a bunch of counters, and basically working TO Khali's strengths: Size and... more size. Oh, and that strangely hilarious charisma.

 

I think a lot of people tend to think that Protect is similar to Keep Strong. Read the descriptions; they're completely different.

 

Otherwise, BP's got it.

[Bigpapa42]

I've always thought of Protect in much the same way. But to me, if it usually means having the other workers or workers do much of the work, its tough to still have a match that's open in terms of offense.

[ampulator]

Actually, I view Dominate and Keep Strong as more dominant or aggresive versions of protect. If you want to hide a workers flaws, Dominate and Keep Strong are pretty good at that.

[LoganRodzen]

The one thing I'm confused about with an open match is that it says, "this is useful if you have a match with workers of different levels and want to give the impression that they are evenly matched." I look at that as it saying you wouldn't need to put it if the workers are the same status (main event, upper mid, etc.) and popularity. If you had a match between a midcarder and a main eventer, but you didn't want the midcarder to look too weak you would make it an 'open match'. I think it's me misunderstanding the wording but that's how I've started to look at it lately.

[Linsolv]

I've always thought of Protect in much the same way. But to me, if it usually means having the other workers or workers do much of the work, its tough to still have a match that's open in terms of offense.

 

I thought Open Match meant that you make the two workers look more-or-less even. In a normal scenario, that's getting the same amount of offense. But if it's Rey Rey vs. Khali or Kane, then being "even" means Rey's gonna get a ton of offense in and then get swatted.

[Bigpapa42]

The one thing I'm confused about with an open match is that it says, "this is useful if you have a match with workers of different levels and want to give the impression that they are evenly matched." I look at that as it saying you wouldn't need to put it if the workers are the same status (main event, upper mid, etc.) and popularity. If you had a match between a midcarder and a main eventer, but you didn't want the midcarder to look too weak you would make it an 'open match'. I think it's me misunderstanding the wording but that's how I've started to look at it lately.

 

I think it does the same thing, but to different degrees. A match between two main eventers with no notes indicating otherwise is naturally going to be pretty even. Both guys (or gals) get their share of offense. Putting the Open note means is going to be more equal, where there is little differentiation of who is better - the kind of match where it feels throughout like either could win.

 

A match between workers of different levels - a main eventer against an opener, say - is naturally uneven. The main eventer may not outright dominant, but they should/would control the action. Its what the fans expect. Putting the Open note in may not make the match absolutely even, but it makes it seem more competitive.

 

So the note has an effect either way, but its dimished as the more even the two workers are on the card, the more even the match is naturally going to be anway.

[Bigpapa42]

I thought Open Match meant that you make the two workers look more-or-less even. In a normal scenario, that's getting the same amount of offense. But if it's Rey Rey vs. Khali or Kane, then being "even" means Rey's gonna get a ton of offense in and then get swatted.

 

Exactly. If Rey does 50 moves and barely does any damage to Khali, then Khali floors him with one swat, is that really them being on equal standing?

[Remianen]

I think a lot of people tend to think that Protect is similar to Keep Strong. Read the descriptions; they're completely different.

 

No they're not. I think this guy explained why.

[MightyDavidson]

Exactly. If Rey does 50 moves and barely does any damage to Khali, then Khali floors him with one swat, is that really them being on equal standing?

 

Then that's not an open match now is it? That's a match where Rey bounced off Khali for about five minutes or so and was defeated with one move, that's domination.

[ampulator]

I view Keep Strong as right between Dominate and Protect - you don't quite want the guy to dominate, but you want the guy to do better than usual.

 

That said, instead of using keep strong on the worker that I want to look stronger, I just straight up use the open match note, like with the Khali/rey example. I could use keep strong on rey, or I could use the open match note. I rather usethe open match note.

[Bigpapa42]

Then that's not an open match now is it? That's a match where Rey bounced off Khali for about five minutes or so and was defeated with one move, that's domination.

 

Which was exactly my point. Thanks. I was trying to point out that Linsolv's example didn't really necessarily make both workers look equal.

[ampulator]

Then how would an open match between Khali, or for a better example, between Big Show and Rey Mysterio work?

[Bigpapa42]

Then how would an open match between Khali, or for a better example, between Big Show and Rey Mysterio work?

 

Therein lies the problem. I don't think a match where you are protecting one worker by having the other worker do much of the worker can really be "open". I think a match between Rey and Big Show could be relatively open, because Show is good enough in the ring that you don't necessarily have to protect him by having Rey do all the work. Have it go back adn forth a bit. Have it seem like either guy could win conceivably win. That's open.

[mcorey]

Along the same topic if you use the Keep Strong note on the loser of the match they won't drop as much in momentum, but the winner does not gain as much correct? Is this the same with Open Match and Protect. What if you use the Decisive Note?

[Greg McNeish]

Thanks, Remi. I didn't know that Keep Strong implies Protect. However, that does not diminish my central point, that Protect is not a lesser form of Keep Strong. Although Keep Strong implies Protect, Protect does not imply Keep Strong.

 

Therein lies the problem. I don't think a match where you are protecting one worker by having the other worker do much of the worker can really be "open".

 

That's not necessarily what the Protect note entails. It's not saying that the other person (or people) are doing all the work. It's saying that everyone is being selective of what they try to do, so that you aren't stretching out a worker that's not capable of doing that.

 

The idea is to focus the viewer's attention away from the protected workers shortcomings as a worker. What you have them focus on instead is what the other note dictates.

 

Worker A: Protect + Dominate

Worker B is instructed to sell the offense of Worker A like death, no matter how much he whiffs on his kicks, how sloppy his slams are, or how slowly he runs.

The viewer's focus is placed on how much damage Worker A can do, even with the simplest of moves.

 

Worker A: Protect / Worker B: Dominate

Worker A does nothing but fall down a lot. That's not asking too much of them. Worker B makes sure that they don't try any moves that Worker A isn't good enough to take well. For instance, the more complicated luchidore offense is out of the question, as is anything where the bump is dangerous, if you don't know how to take it right, like powerbombs.

 

Worker A: Protect / Open Match

This is a combination of the previous two matches. Worker B ensures that they don't attempt offensive maneuvers that Worker A can't handle, while ensuring that they make Worker A's sloppy & simplistic offense look good. Extra attention is paid to the transitions between control segments, as these are quite often the most complicated aspects of matches. Transition spots are specifically kept simple for Worker A.

The viewer's focus is kept on how either man (or woman) could end the match at any moment, as both are close to their breaking points.

 

 

No matter what type of match is being called for, the Protect note exists to keep limited workers from tanking it. The note calls for special attention to be paid to how the match is laid out, so that the limited worker is not overwhelmed. It doesn't matter whether it's a squash, a broadway, or an "epic main event". In all of these cases, the Protect note is used to lay out the match in a way that the Protected worker isn't asked to do more than they are capable of doing.

 

I hope I've done a better job of laying out my argument, this time out. Cheers!

[unicron]

Thanks, Remi. I didn't know that Keep Strong implies Protect. However, that does not diminish my central point, that Protect is not a lesser form of Keep Strong. Although Keep Strong implies Protect, Protect does not imply Keep Strong.

 

 

 

That's not necessarily what the Protect note entails. It's not saying that the other person (or people) are doing all the work. It's saying that everyone is being selective of what they try to do, so that you aren't stretching out a worker that's not capable of doing that.

 

The idea is to focus the viewer's attention away from the protected workers shortcomings as a worker. What you have them focus on instead is what the other note dictates.

 

Worker A: Protect + Dominate

Worker B is instructed to sell the offense of Worker A like death, no matter how much he whiffs on his kicks, how sloppy his slams are, or how slowly he runs.

The viewer's focus is placed on how much damage Worker A can do, even with the simplest of moves.

 

Worker A: Protect / Worker B: Dominate

Worker A does nothing but fall down a lot. That's not asking too much of them. Worker B makes sure that they don't try any moves that Worker A isn't good enough to take well. For instance, the more complicated luchidore offense is out of the question, as is anything where the bump is dangerous, if you don't know how to take it right, like powerbombs.

 

Worker A: Protect / Open Match

This is a combination of the previous two matches. Worker B ensures that they don't attempt offensive maneuvers that Worker A can't handle, while ensuring that they make Worker A's sloppy & simplistic offense look good. Extra attention is paid to the transitions between control segments, as these are quite often the most complicated aspects of matches. Transition spots are specifically kept simple for Worker A.

The viewer's focus is kept on how either man (or woman) could end the match at any moment, as both are close to their breaking points.

 

 

No matter what type of match is being called for, the Protect note exists to keep limited workers from tanking it. The note calls for special attention to be paid to how the match is laid out, so that the limited worker is not overwhelmed. It doesn't matter whether it's a squash, a broadway, or an "epic main event". In all of these cases, the Protect note is used to lay out the match in a way that the Protected worker isn't asked to do more than they are capable of doing.

 

I hope I've done a better job of laying out my argument, this time out. Cheers!

 

Great post. Thank you for taking the time to type that up, great read.

 

I think it's worth considering the Keep Strong and Dominate notes 'kayfabe notes', if you will. If someone is kept strong they are made to look overtly dangerous to the viewing audience. Conversely, if someone is Protected they are helped to put on a better match by not asking them to go outside their comfort zone.

 

If you were watching two wrestlers in real life whom you'd never seen before, you would spot a Dominate note immediately whereas you wouldn't necessarily notice a Protect note applied to either, or both, of them.

[Irish Wolf]

You can protect and keep strong or protect and have an open match. I suck at wrestling but when I work with a guy better than I am he can protect me by helping make me look better. He can limit the moves he does to me to ones I know how to take and selling my limited number of moves really well. And he can do this to either make us look even or make me look strong or even make me look dominant. So protect should have nothing to do with Open, Keep Strong or Dominate. Whether or not that is true in game mechanics is a whole other story.

 

I did two minutes in practice in the ring with Prince Nana and he made me look like a million dollars even though I've only been training for six weeks. If it was a real match it would have been impressive and he kept it open. We both got even amounts of offense.

 

I usually saw the keep strong note as a way to say this worker is still going to look good even if he or his side loses the bout.

[bookerman]

What sort of thresholds/criteria does everyone use for determining whether guys should go all out/slow build/work the crowd etc? Do you look at stamina? Slow build is better for long matches obviously.