chemistry of the 80s and dott era?

[markieje]

I've decided I want to work a little more with the chemistry in my DOTT database.

 

Three tag teams are in that file:

Road Warriors - Great

Rock 'n' Roll Express - Great

Midnight Express (Eaton & Condrey) - Good

 

Eaton and Lane were an even better team, so I think they should be great.

There are some good teams that are still low in experience, like the British Bulldogs. How would you rate them?

 

In singles pairings:

Dory Funk/Jack Brisco: Great

Flair/Steamboat: Great

Hogan/Savage: Good

Lawler/Dundee: Great

 

I've been looking at 5-star matches and match of the year winners for chemistry pairings. How about Snuka and Muraco? Piper and Valentine? Flair and Race?

[Hive]

Interesting thread.

 

I haven't done much with chemistry (yet) in my own mod, but I'd add Bret Hart/Dynamite Kid to that list.

[Teh_Showtime]

Flair/Steamboat didnt have chemistry

 

if you have great workers wrestler each other they will give great results

 

same with Flair and Harley Race

[Gigas]

Flair/Steamboat didnt have chemistry

 

if you have great workers wrestler each other they will give great results

 

same with Flair and Harley Race

 

Why cant it be both?

[djthefunkchris]

Flair/Steamboat didnt have chemistry

 

if you have great workers wrestler each other they will give great results

 

same with Flair and Harley Race

 

.... This has come up before many times. I am going to just say this.... Flair had alot of memmorial match's with alot of great wrestler's, however, Steamboat and his feud is/was more memmoriable then everything else...by far... Like 20 times or more.

 

Just saying, by saying there is "nothing" there besides two great worker's working a match, then why isn't all the other great wrestler's they had match's or feuds with as memmoriable?

 

A little something to think about.

[Guest codey]

Flair and Steamboat were both at their peaks when they wrestled, and they're both among the greatest of all time. Flair and Steamboat did have matches as good or better with other wrestlers than they had together. Did you forget about Steamboat/Savage? Flair/Rhodes?

 

This isn't how chemistry is supposed to work in the game. I can put Tommy Cornell in a match with Koshiro Ino with absolutely no chemistry and still come out with an A* match. Two great wrestlers can put on amazing matches together with no chemistry. Chemistry in the game is for workers that make each other better when they're together. For instance, Kyle Rhodes and Jason Azaria. Neither should be able to announce for a national company, but their chemistry together makes them so much better that they're able to. Neither Steamboat nor Flair made the other man better, they just happened to work great together, like Ino and Cornell in my example.

[Teh_Showtime]

If you have 2 average guys put on numerous 5* matches, then that's chemistry

 

but 2 of the best workers putting on some of the best matches ever should be expected

[markieje]

It's extremely hard to generate A* matches with my DOTT files.

[Bigpapa42]

I end up going back and forth on something like Flair/Steamboat. As has been stated, both were phenomenal workers. Flair bought a lot of guys to their "career best" matches. The thing about those matches is that they are perfectly executed, but not that diverse. It was not a significantly different story in each match, building on the last, etc. It wasn't really innovative action - they just executed a fairly standard (for them) match perfectly, several times over.

 

The issue I have with giving those two good chemistry together is that is basically ensures they will get an A* match every time. Not every match they had against each other was an A*. But doing that in the game makes it almost certain.

[markieje]

I end up going back and forth on something like Flair/Steamboat. As has been stated, both were phenomenal workers. Flair bought a lot of guys to their "career best" matches.

 

It wasn't just that they were best matches of Steamboat's career, they were probably also the best of Flair's career.

 

Steamboat also brought some guys to some of their best matches.

[Bigpapa42]

It wasn't just that they were best matches of Steamboat's career, they were probably also the best of Flair's career.

 

Steamboat also brought some guys to some of their best matches.

 

Yeah, Steamboat did as well, same as Flair. If both guys are capable of elevating other lesser opponents, it should be no surprise that they elevated each other. Again, that's due to skill and not chemistry.

[markieje]

Yeah, Steamboat did as well, same as Flair. If both guys are capable of elevating other lesser opponents, it should be no surprise that they elevated each other. Again, that's due to skill and not chemistry.

 

But what about the problem I have that I'm not getting matches in the A or A* range, at all?

[Bigpapa42]

But what about the problem I have that I'm not getting matches in the A or A* range, at all?

 

Are you in a position to be getting A* matches? Remember that popularity matters, no matter the product. By memory, Steamboat isn't that popular yet in DOTT and Flair really only in certain regions. Even if your product is rated much more on performance than popularity, their popularity still comes into play a bit, and moreso if the product is more towards even.

 

If you're a regional or cult promotion, you probably aren't in a position to be realistically having A* matches very often. A* matches, truthfully, should be a rarity, not a regular thing. How many promotions that are very well remembered never had a 5-star rated match?

 

Now, if you have Flair & Steamboat both with B or better popularity in a national promotion and you can't get at least an A match out of them (and no other notable issues, such as poor announcers, bad gimmick, etc), then I would say be concerned. Getting a B+ match out of them when you are still Cult is not a bad grade at all.

[jhd1]

But what about the problem I have that I'm not getting matches in the A or A* range, at all?

 

DOTT is all about playing to your worker's strengths, especially in pop-based feds. Matches can vary massively simply based on where you are holding the show. You may look at the pop tab at the bottom of the roster screen and think that Roddy Piper has a A-level popularity in the US. What you don't see is that he could have C- in the Mid South and A* in the Tri-State. I managed to get a B-rated match out of Hogan and Kamala, for example purely because the show was in the Mid-South (where Kamala was huge).

 

I don't know which DOTT download you are using, but I found the drug/alcohol/steroid levels to be far too high. That has a huge impact on grades. Try knocking Flair's drinking down by half and see how the grade changes.

[markieje]

Jim Crockett Promotions never made it out of Cult and did have 5-star matches! But the star rating system didn't exist until 1984!

[Guest codey]

It's to keep you from growing too fast. Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk may be a 5* match, but when it happened, I could see it getting about a 75 or so. It all has to do with their popularity and promotion position.

[jhd1]

That and the game is using the mechanics of 2010 wrestling, not 1984. Don't get me wrong, the DOTT mod is fantastic but it doesn't come close to mimicking the industry in the 1980s because so many factors that the game use means it can't.

[Bigpapa42]

Jim Crockett Promotions never made it out of Cult and did have 5-star matches! But the star rating system didn't exist until 1984!

 

I realize both of those things. But how many matches that JCP had are considered amongst the finest ever, as an A* or 5-star match should be? I have been watching territorial stuff quite extensive in the past year, and I'm not sure I would put even some of my favorites at that level.

 

Flair & Steamboat had a series of matches around the peirod of DOTT. Could've even been in JCP. They were really good, but not 5-star or A* matches.

[Stennick]

Let me say this one more time. Chemistry is not about great matches. Adam has defined chemistry as two guys that work better together than they do apart. Hawk and Animal may do just that but in ninety nine percent of mods they already have an A* tax xp. Road Dogg and Billy Gunn do just that but they already have an A* in tag xp. If you know the workings of the game you know that a high tag xp negates any good or bad chemistry.

 

I strongly urge you to play the default data so that you can learn exactly what it takes to make matches and promotions play the correct way within the settings of the GAME. This is not real life and even though the game is fun and at times very scary accurate it is still a game and was not meant with the intention of simming real life.

 

If you simulate a cult promotion to be putting on five star matches with Race/Flair/ Rhodes/Flair and whatever else then you have a broken mod.

 

For these guys to get anywhere NEAR that level of match up they need very high chemistry and a high skill set that in the DOTT not even Flair had.

 

In the early eighties Ric Flair was becoming but wasn't quite the best wrestler in the world.

 

This is a game and it works as such. If you want MACW to be raided within the first year by the WWE because their guys are over and popular then go for it. Or you could sign them to writtens, give Flair great chemistry with everyone he ever had a memorable feud with and MACW will put the WWE out of business within two years.

 

This is a game do you know how many chemistry files are in the default database? None. The creater of the game saw fit to give no chemistry files in the default data because its a game. Starting chemistry should be few and far between. Adam didn't even want to INCLUDE it in the game but only after four versions of the game of people begging for it he reluctantly put it in for the fifth version. I have to believe these threads about chemistry that pop up are exactly why he didn't want to include that feature.

 

It baffles me that people want to make sure wrestlers have the correct chemistry with everyone they ever faced, but then they hire Ric Flair into the WWE and have Hogan job to him at seven straight Wrestlemanias. They're accuracy freaks but then when they play the game they competely dismantle history within a month or two of game play anyway so what the heck was the point in the first place?

 

Obvioulsy if its a personal game do what you want but if you're interested in making a mod for the community to play it sounds like there are clear warning signs that this is extremely unbalanced to say the least.

 

Good luck and more importantly have fun finding out all the little features that make this game more than some machine to somehow recreate the past. I too in the past have been hung up on trying to get things to play out a certain way but at the end of the day none of us play this game to recreate history we play it to make our own.

 

What does it matter if the chemistry is historically how YOU think it should be? Make the files you want to make but if you're releasing a mod I would say the number one rule is "its not what you like". I'm a big Desmond Wolfe fan and in my eyes the guy is a five star talent but in reality he's lacking a few different things. If I'm making a personal game I might bump up his SQ a few grades just for the fun of pushing him. If I'm making a mod and I do it because I'm biased in how I view him chances its only going to splinter from there and before you know it the mod turns into something you don't even recognize and you spend forever trying to rebalance it only throwing other things out of wack. Watch Back to the Future you'll know what I mean.

[Genadi]

If you simulate a cult promotion to be putting on five star matches with Race/Flair/ Rhodes/Flair and whatever else then you have a broken mod.

 

While I strongly agree with the majority of your post this statement is untrue, for a few different reasons.

 

We've discussed this enough times I've said all I can on it, which is why I'm not weighing in more on the subject

[Stennick]

While I strongly agree with the majority of your post this statement is untrue, for a few different reasons.

 

We've discussed this enough times I've said all I can on it, which is why I'm not weighing in more on the subject

 

Agree to disagree

[Bigpapa42]

If you simulate a cult promotion to be putting on five star matches with Race/Flair/ Rhodes/Flair and whatever else then you have a broken mod.

 

For these guys to get anywhere NEAR that level of match up they need very high chemistry and a high skill set that in the DOTT not even Flair had.

 

In the early eighties Ric Flair was becoming but wasn't quite the best wrestler in the world.

 

This is a game and it works as such. If you want MACW to be raided within the first year by the WWE because their guys are over and popular then go for it. Or you could sign them to writtens, give Flair great chemistry with everyone he ever had a memorable feud with and MACW will put the WWE out of business within two years.

 

I don't think it would be completely wrong for a cult-sized promotion to be able to score the occassional A* match. The emphasis is on "occassional", though. Its like at NOTBPW in the default data - they don't seem score A* matches all the time anymore in most games. Maybe a couple per year at most. That is with some massively talented workers, obviously amongst the very best in the world, and they almost all have national-level popularity in Canada. MACW was never in that postiion. Given that guys like Flair and Steamboat weren't in their prime yet, either, I would say MACW would realistically be a step below where NOTBPW is in the default data.

 

I learned very quickly how damaging too much positive chemistry can be. When I first started messing around with real world games on TEW 2010, and I started messing with creating chemistry in the data since I had never done it before. Anyone who had some good matches with another guy got good chemistry. If they had great matches, they got great chemistry. When I actually started to play the game, the amount of good chemistry was simply overpowering. The data wasn't difficult to score good grades with before the chemistry, so that just made it way too much. I was getting B+ and A matches out of your average throwaway undercard TV match. I could get A* matches on B shows. It was way overboard and just killed the game for me. But I learned how powerful good, let alone great, chemistry can be in terms of match grades. I have since come to understand and respect how Adam intended chemistry to be used.

 

To the OP, its your game. If you aren't intended to release the mod, then do what you want to make the game fun for yourself. But if you are keen to maintain realism (which seems to be the case), then its best to use chemistry as it was intended. And I personally just can't see Flair & Steamboat being a situation of good chemistry. They had some really good matches in the mid 80s, and some all-time great classic matches at the end of the decade when both were in their absolute prime. Great workers having great matches with each other is not good chemistry.

[nutt2252]

I think chemistry should really be used to utilize the managing and announcing with part. Teaming with and Fighting Against, not so much in an 80s mod.